 Poster: A snowHead
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Over the New Year (in the 3V) and last weekend in Arosa I had a chance to try out my new Missions in a variety of conditions.
Very happy with them on pretty much any conditions offpiste and on pistes which had good to average snow. (you can get some great angles if you really lean into them)
However, on black and steep red runs which were icy (not even blue ice), I found that trying to hold an edge resulted in a very pronounced chatter - actually the ski kept losing an edge and finding it again, shaking my whole body from feet to helmet.
My hope would have been that the ski would either skid laterally or hold the edge. This in-between situation became very hard to control.
Now I know that it may all be my technique, but the problem seems not to happen (at all or to the same degree) with other skis. When I tried extreme carving (ie high edge angles on my skis) things were better, but on an icy black run with other people about, this can be dangerous as speed build very quickly.
Can I do anything? (Spyderman, would it help if I asked for a 2 or 3 degree angle? If so, 2 or 3?)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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horizon, If you're skiing hard/icey conditions your ski's will quickly become burred over, especially underfoot, whatever their side edge angle is set to. It's therefore important to regularly deburr the side edge with an alu-oxide stone or a Burrbuster tool otherwise the ski will be running on the burr & will behave erratically & won't hold a decent edge. Deburring might even have to be done on a daily basis & if conditions are really hard they might even need a light daily sharpening also. Better to do a little & often that to let them get really burred/blunt & then have to remove a lot of material to get them sharp again. Get yourself an alu-oxide stone/Minituner or an Edge Trick tool.
For ice you need sharp edges on sharp angles. Mission's have a 1 degree side edge angle as shipped which won't give the best edge hold especially on a wide ski, although the Mission's are reasonably torsionally stiff which helps. I'd recommend tuning the side edges to 3 degrees as it gives max bite with no down side. I regularly tune about 10 pairs of Missions for my clients & I've set them all to 3 degrees.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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horizon, I think your edge angle question is better addressed to Spyderjon, but let's have a go at the technique side of the problem.
Firstly are you trying to be very aggressive with your attempts at keeping an edge? I find the best way to ski something like the Missions, is to be a bit more 2 footed, very centred, and use very progressive flexion in order to keep the skis as quiet as possible, basically no sudden or abrupt movements. The Missions are of course designed primarily for soft snow conditions, so you're not going to get the same levels of grip on hardpack that you would with a pure piste carver.
By being centred and 2 footed you'll be spreading the loads more equally over the entire edge of both skis, thereby lessening the load on any particular part of one ski, (instead of say by being very aggressive on the downhill ski). This should give each of the skis, less load to deal with, so less chance of letting go and chattering, which in essence is the ski rapidly loosing and regaining grip in quick succession.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I find the width of the ski means you have to angulate even more than you would with skinny skis....if I don't get my angles right then the ski does feel weird on shiny hard snow.
However mine side slipped fine down the steepest black I've ever seen, they even had nets across the slope to catch falling skiers!
There was no judder/chatter and mine are set to the factory default 1 degree, so it's either your particular ski or you! Are the edges sharp tip to tail?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Without reading all the replies, excuse me if I'm repeating what other people are saying.
Sounds more like technique than the skis. Load those tips.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Interesting. I CAN get them to sideslip fine, but then any pretence of carving my turn is gone. It's when I try to carve tight turns on steep icy slopes that they do this.
I'll try to work on my technique but can't quite work out what I'm doing wrong - the tip engages in the turn but the portion of edge below my boot gives way.
spyderjon, Spyderman, sorry for confusing the two of you, but thanks for the replies!
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horizon, do you think it might be down to the big sidecut on those things making it difficult to engage enough of the edge on hard snow? maybe one of those situations where a straighter ski actually grips better
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I suspect Arno. On steep icy slopes you have three basic options
1. pure carve the turns - this requires commitment and high edge angles and you will be going FAST before you start carving up against gravity again. Depending on the width of the piste, number of skiers on it, etc, it may not be practical
2. skarve/partly skid the turn until you are well through the fall-line then pick up the edges (once you have done most of the dirction change you are pure carving again) again once you have shed enough speed - this is the pragmatic option but will likely result in some judder when skidding on highly shaped skis
3. skid pretty much the whole way (sort of linked descending/skidded traverses) - this is the WRONG but very popular way of doing it based on my observations of other skiers! This is going to be very juddery! I think people do this because they don't control the skarved turn properly and have more speed than they are really comfortabe with on the "traverse".
If 1 is not an option then I'd suggest focusing on 2 - precise skarving through the fall-line so that you have no need to skid after
J
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The shovel is too big ( for the rest of the ski ) and not torsionally stiff enough IMV. It isn't the best ski to blat fast reds, I would have thought. Only tried it in the L2A ice mind..!!!
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Won't most skis chatter on bad ice? I would have thought it was the nature of the surface. My new skis feel physically heavier than the two sets I've hired before, but I still expect them to chatter if I get those death cobbles I skied on last year.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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JT - back then!! I had no chatter on that infamous Black 4pm run, so I'd say the ski is fundamentally ok! I've also done high speed runs down a black above La Tania in "solid" snow with no hint of chatter...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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JT, I agree.
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The shovel is too big ( for the rest of the ski ) and not torsionally stiff enough IMV. It isn't the best ski to blat fast reds, I would have thought. Only tried it in the L2A ice mind..!!!
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I get chattering skis when I use either too much pressure or not enough edge angle (but usually a combination the two). Reduce the pressure (flex more at the bottom of the turn and ease of the pressure as you cross-over) or increase your edge angle to get more grip. I'm not sure if you are more likely to get chatter with skis which have a softer torsional flex, but I've had it lots of time on very stiff skis when I've tried to force the ski around the turn with too much pressure.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Won't most skis chatter on bad ice? I would have thought it was the nature of the surface. My new skis feel physically heavier than the two sets I've hired before, but I still expect them to chatter if I get those death cobbles I skied on last year. |
I think horizon is talking about a different thing to being bounced around on a chopped-up surface.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
JT, I agree.
| Quote: |
The shovel is too big ( for the rest of the ski ) and not torsionally stiff enough IMV. It isn't the best ski to blat fast reds, I would have thought. Only tried it in the L2A ice mind..!!!
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I don't. I'm big and heavy and skiied 182 Punishers on boilerplate ice for a few days here. I was really happy with them.
I find sharper edge angles and being lighter on my edges and allowing the skis to turn their radius rather than force them, along with pressuring the tips(which sounds counter intuitive, but seems to work for me) stops the chatter. (disclaimer - I'm not an instructor, and this may be rubbish)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DaveC wrote: |
| [ (disclaimer - I'm not an instructor, and this may be rubbish) |
disclaimer not necessary Dave - instructors are allowed/able/inclined to talk rubbish too - but your good manners are appreciated by those of us who dig that kinda thing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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well, I'm doing my CSIA 1 on monday, so hopefully by the end of the week I'll be qualified to talk rubbish to at least small children 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DaveC, Good luck. How's taking the course? Christian?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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DaveC, good work dude
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
JT, I agree.
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The shovel is too big ( for the rest of the ski ) and not torsionally stiff enough IMV. It isn't the best ski to blat fast reds, I would have thought. Only tried it in the L2A ice mind..!!!
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I don't. I'm big and heavy and skiied 182 Punishers on boilerplate ice for a few days here. I was really happy with them.
I find sharper edge angles and being lighter on my edges and allowing the skis to turn their radius rather than force them, along with pressuring the tips(which sounds counter intuitive, but seems to work for me) stops the chatter. (disclaimer - I'm not an instructor, and this may be rubbish) |
I agree.
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