Ski Club 2.0 Home
Snow Reports
FAQFAQ

Mail for help.Help!!

Log in to snowHeads to make it MUCH better! Registration's totally free, of course, and makes snowHeads easier to use and to understand, gives better searching, filtering etc. as well as access to 'members only' forums, discounts and deals that U don't even know exist as a 'guest' user. (btw. 50,000+ snowHeads already know all this, making snowHeads the biggest, most active community of snow-heads in the UK, so you'll be in good company)..... When you register, you get our free weekly(-ish) snow report by email. It's rather good and not made up by tourist offices (or people that love the tourist office and want to marry it either)... We don't share your email address with anyone and we never send out any of those cheesy 'message from our partners' emails either. Anyway, snowHeads really is MUCH better when you're logged in - not least because you get to post your own messages complaining about things that annoy you like perhaps this banner which, incidentally, disappears when you log in :-)
Username:-
 Password:
Remember me:
👁 durr, I forgot...
Or: Register
(to be a proper snow-head, all official-like!)

Edge judder

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Just a quick question to see if there is a ready remedy. When carving (edging hard at speed) on steep very firm pitches I sometimes get a bit of judder in the outside ski. This suggests to me I'm perhaps overpowering it. I usually just back off a bit or slide out the skis a bit to release pressure. This may of course also be a feature of my weight and the skis, usually being a modern mid-fat wink - most recent incident was with an Icelantic Shaman.

(I suspect the easiest remedy is try a skki built for the job but where's the fun in that?)
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
You're not using enough edge angle for the turn that you are trying to carve and as a consequence over-powering the grip the ski can achieve by using too much pressure. Either increase the edge angle or, as you are doing, back off the pressure and open up the turn shape a little. Don't think it has much to do with the type of ski you are using - I get the same judder on a pair of GS skis if I don't edge them enough.
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Cheers Rob. Sounds about right as I only really get it when I'm really putting it down on that ski without concentrating on higher edge angle.
latest report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
fatbob, become just Bob Smile
latest report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Following wot Rob says, more angulation?
ski holidays
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
As I haven't seen you ski, it's hard to diagnose, but just thinking about Rob's explanation it doesn't seem to make sense to me. If your skis are juddering, you're probably not carving (the tail of the ski following the same track as the tip), especially if it's a particularly firm/steep slope. If you had too little edge angle and were steering, your skis would simply be sliding, if you were carving with a low edge angle, you would be going extremely fast, and not across the hill very much. The explanation of 'too much pressure', how can you exert too much pressure on a ski? I would argue that you can't, you can however mistime and mismanage the pressure that is created, which is probably part of what's happening here.

If I were to guess I would say that you are possibly creating your edge angle by pushing your tails out, resulting in an abruptly high edge angle, as the tail is displaced from the track of the tip it struggles to find grip, and as this probably combined with a straight outside leg, and a lot of pressure late in the turn, you struggle to control the forces created. But really, that's just what I feel when I get edge chatter, who knows what you're up to.
latest report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
jimmer, the judder/chatter sounds like it is the result of the ski gripping then breaking through the grip because the pressure was too much, then gripping then breaking through the grip, repeatedly. I've rarely experienced it when skiing outside gates, and saw a few junior racers in Italy this week experiencing it. It's very distinctive, and definitely caused by too much pressure and not enough edge angle.
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Just to say, I've very occasionally noticed this. Mostly on rock hard corduroy. I realised I was slightly rushing my turns and being too aggressive with the edge changes. Once I focused on smoother edge transitions and nice wide arcs, the problem disappeared. I think this did have to do with edge angulation too, as I was 'gripping' too early in the turn due to rushing the change? What Rob has said makes sense to me!
snow report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I had some nice chatter from my skis today, quite steep and a little hard packed slope, I think I was too aggressive at the start of the turn (rushing it) and not smooth enough. Another discussion from a couple of years back
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=35754
snow conditions
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
fatbob, how wide are the skis.... and what boot bindings you on ... i chatter big time on rando boots / dukes combo it felt like the rubber just moved around under foot when trying to find some edge.

even with a solid binding wide skis will chatter unless you manage the edge and pressure very well when on hard pack.
snow conditions
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Just to be clear, are we talking about what a lot of people might call 'chatter'? Because if we are, this 'too low an edge angle' business still makes no sense.
snow conditions
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
jimmer, it was described in the OP as
Quote:
When carving (edging hard at speed) on steep very firm pitches I sometimes get a bit of judder in the outside ski.
.
ski holidays
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I get this as well sometimes and I think rob@rar was bang on with his diagnosis. You need some confidence & skill to hold the edge angles high enough in a high speed turn so they lock into a tight carve - more confidence & skill on wider skis. If you can't quite get there, but still try, the edge tries to "lock", releases, tries to lock etc - judder. So I guess most recreational skiers would be best advised to release some edge angle to allow a smooth slarve, or of course open up the turn shape.

Or you could MTFU, go for the high edge angle and then spend 15 minutes gathering up your personal effects from a 300 square metre area*.

(* I've tried this more than once).
snow report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
horizon wrote:
If you can't quite get there, but still try, the edge tries to "lock", releases, tries to lock etc - judder. So I guess most recreational skiers would be best advised to release some edge angle to allow a smooth slarve, or of course open up the turn shape.
If you can't quite get a high enough edge angle one instinctive response is to try and "force the turn" by stiffening your leg - this means you are no longer able to manage the increase in pressure as it builds through the apex and bottom of the turn and it is this that causes the judder by grip, break-the-grip, grip, break-the-grip, etc. Easiest way to stop the judder is to soften your leg and open up the turn radius slightly, unless you're skiing gates (which is the only time I've experienced it) in which case you don't have the option to open up the turn so you have to increase your edge angle (although that's easier said than done, for the reason you describe Laughing )
snow report
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Having thought about it a bit more I'm convinced Rob is right. Because it only happens on isolsated runs/turns I think it may also be a feature of being late in the turn I,e on the heel of the outside foot.
snow report
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar, I remember asking about this on here years ago and I think it was yourself who posted up a very good illustration of upper body lean angle when in the turn. Natural thing to do is to lean the upper body into the turn, where-as what you want to do is keep your spine angle as vertical as possible. This helps get the correct pressure and allows the legs to extend into the turn to a greater extent without reaching the end of reach, which is what leads to the judder?

Hope that makes sense as I can't remember the technical terms etc.
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
shoogly, angulation and inclination are the technical terms, although in themselves they don't cause (or stop) judder (which is about how you manage the pressure between the ski and the snow). A couple of photos to illustrate angulation (first photo) and inclination (second photo)



ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
shoogly, you are right and that coudl be a problem as well.. in order to achieve bigger angles on the steep section fatbob, MAY be leaning into the hill and putting too much weight on the inside ski causing the outside ski to break away. This is called banking, to counteract this he could drop the hip into the hill and get his weight more over the edged ski.
snow report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
skimottaret, it's the one thing that moved my skiing on a couple of years ago.
snow conditions
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
shoogly, Cool Cool
snow conditions
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
rob@rar, Is that a rearward facing Go-Pro? Are you chasing the elusive GSA?

To clarify, I don't think it's about the outer ski breaking away - to me it feels like more weight on the ski than the edge angle can handle. As I said I think it might be a feature when I'm loading the ski late and slightly back i.e. from memory if I load the tips early in the turn I don't get the same judder. Also it only really happens occasionally on groomers which are at about the limit of winch cat grooming in the latter half of turns.
latest report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:

As I said I think it might be a feature when I'm loading the ski late and slightly back i.e. from memory if I load the tips early in the turn I don't get the same judder.


sounds like you have worked it out... wink getting onto the edge early in the turn is really important to use more of the skis edge to spread the load and reduce pressure....

ps... that was me he was chasing Wink
snow conditions
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
One thing that's clear from this thread is that if you get one thing wrong in skiing, it has a big impact on the rest of your technique.
latest report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
fatbob wrote:
rob@rar, Is that a rearward facing Go-Pro? Are you chasing the elusive GSA?
It was a rear-facing Contour HD. Not sure what a GSA is, but I was chasing skimottaret at the time.
snow report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Is skimottaret training for Alaska? If not he is only a false prophet and should repent his wicked ways for the path of truth wisdom.

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/239662-The-Gaper-Spirit-Animal
ski holidays
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
fatbob, Ah, I understand now. Yup, he looks a total douchbag with those phat skis. (Is that the right terminology, dude?)

wink
latest report
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Are the skis too short?
snow conditions
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Cynic wrote:
Are the skis too short?


Maybe but any ski I've experienced it on has been the longest made in a particular model. Time to bring back proper manly 2m skis.
snow report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
fatbob,

I'm all for that! You don't get any edge judder if you can't turn the bl**dy things before you get to the bottom.
snow report
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Hard to diagnose without video perhaps some summer movement analysis could start with you... There can be a lot of causes for edge judder

Another possibility is that you are overly countered which is very common in old schoolers

By memory i think you heel push at he bottom of turn
snow report
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I'm sure Rob is right.

I get this on very firm pistes on fat skis. Sometimes it feels very committing to get a 100mm waist ski ALL THE WAY over onto its edge to carve the turn. If I don't do that and instead try to use a bit of knee angulation (rather than hip angulation) then I can get that grip-release thing going. Nasty.

On my 75mm waist skis I never get it, just because its much easier to set them at a high edge angle.
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
jedster, Well! Exactly!!?
snow report
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
fatbob, It's your suspension. I've always found that stiff legs are the primary cause of juddering and it's natural to 'tighten up' as speed and angle increase. Try he same turns and concentrate on keeping your mass forward, pressure into your boots via your shins . . . AND RELAX your knees to absorb the terrain that's bouncing your skis out of their (its track).
snow conditions
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
rob@rar, skimottaret, just to add an another situation, trying to describe properly!

I was testing some quite stiff skis last week (flat tail and rocker tip), conditions were hard early morning snow, on one very hard and fast turn the edge judder was so extreme that the whole downhill ski jumped out of the turn went about a foot down the slope re engaged into the turn, then did it again twice before I got it back under control, I stopped and looked back (should have taken a photo) and there where three huge tracks/gouges in the snow where the ski had jumped out of the turn.

I put it down to to much edge angle for the conditions an getting into the back seat a little too much, I was pushing it a little but never had it happen like this before Shocked
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
livetoski wrote:
I put it down to to much edge angle for the conditions an getting into the back seat a little too much, I was pushing it a little but never had it happen like this before Shocked
Not sure how too much edge angle could have caused that. Maybe getting in to the back seat a bit too much, and consequently stiffening your outside leg so you're unable to manage the pressure. Did the jump occur mid-turn or at the end of the turn?
ski holidays
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
livetoski, DO you recall on what part of your foot where you pushing...I am guessing probably the heel and if a ski with stiff tails that could have been the culprit coupled with what Rob says...
snow report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar,
Quote:

Did the jump occur mid-turn or at the end of the turn?


was mid turn around a pretty tight corner on the piste, I was pushing it as hard as possible to see what the skis would do, think your right about back seat, the turn radius of the ski was 21m the other thought I had was that I was trying to do a 12m turn and it was just to much, for me or the ski wink prob me!
snow conditions
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
skimottaret, I do not really remember, but you are prob right, I had the boots cranked forwards on the 21 degree setting which I found gives less margin for error on weighting toe to heel.
ski holidays
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
why use 21 degrees? that is a very agressive forward lean the 15 degree would be better i would think....
snow report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
skimottaret,
Quote:

why use 21 degrees? that is a very agressive forward lean the 15 degree would be better i would think...


yep agree used 15 most of the time, switced to 21 when it was steeper and for some of the faster more aggresive runs
snow report



Terms and conditions  Privacy Policy