 Poster: A snowHead
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Years ago I used to work a lot in central europe, places like Belgrade and Sophia. There the normal family home was about as big as ski apartment. One bedroom for the kids and a sofa bed for the adults in the lounge. They lived there all their lives and thought little about other than to keep everything very tidy and use space saving ideas that would put the average caravan or boat to shame.
John
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've got a 1 bedroomed 25m2 apartment in Thollon Les Memises and is the normal layout - bedroom, hallway with bunks, living room with sofa bed.
I think for a family of four it is just fine provided the children use the bunks/adults take the bedroom. If the apartment the OP is looking at doesn't have the bunks/coin montagne, then I think it might be too much of a squeeze from a practical point of view.
It's a bit of a fuss having to use the sofabed in the living room as it disrupts the space and means people can't stay up late with a drink/watching TV as others can't get to bed. Stayed at mine in November (group of 6) and it was do-able as we were all adults together, all staying up drinking until late, but wouldn't fancy doing the same with adults + kids/teens. Teens need their own space to be honest (or at least a space away from grown ups!) and if the OP is planning to stay in and cook most evenings then it'll be a bit of a faff.
On saying that, an extra £400 for bunk beds is a big cost, might be best to just accept that it'll be a bit tight for a week and spend the £400 saved eating out everynight and then you're only using the place to crash at night so space doesn't become a problem.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Have you considered booking with a french immobilier? We did that in La Clusaz a couple of years ago and got a place with two bedrooms and a sofa bed in the living room for a family of 5 (kids 14, 12, 10 at the time). As the French holidays aren't necessarily the same you *might* find availability. You'll need some basic french for the booking though.
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Course, weez posh over in 1950. Ours is 56 sq m + 18sq m balcony. We put up with lounge sleepers for boys week, but try to avoid when en familie. (2 separate b/rooms)
Compared to NA it's small, compared to some other French places, it's huge.
Not sure I get this "we're up and out and never come back so size doesn't matter" call. For us, the ability to relax at the end of the day, with a DVD or comfortable space to read, without impinging on others is important. We take in in turns to cook, but no need to squeeze around others who are just sitting at the table playing cards, and we can invite people over for drinks etc. without having them trip over drying boots, gloves or salopettes.
And if we go out of an evening, not trippping over things or people on returning, having downed the odd alcohol unit or two, is nice.
For us, being comfortable at the end of a hard day's skiing is all part of the "holiday".
But as ever on  each to their own. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think it depends on your view of the week. If you are going for a holiday in every sense of the word then really the French apartments as described are just too small to feel comfortable. Especially the whole sofa bed sleeping in the lounge arrangement. We as a family of four seem to have experienced a range of apartments from the tiny, two on the floor of the lounge a bunk in the corridor through to the two individual rooms (like Rob's place which theoretically could have another two in the lounge). My sense is that if there are four of you go for an apartment for 6 as you may get more space/flexibility.
I really don't agree that you just go to sleep in the apartment (especially if you are self catering) you may want to cook, eat, relax and wash there. It's not that easy in the smaller places. I agree that on a budget and with limited choice it may be bearable but given a choice I would go for something bigger than you think you might need.
I think it's a shame that winter holidays are often based on such poor accommodation. I stayed in a hotel last year with the family and that transformed the holiday experience in that we actually felt like we were on holiday . . .
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Having done one of the new French ones at Montgenevre, and more traditional one in Livigno
it would have to be the new one everytime, ok the bed settee is a bit uncomfy when watching a DVD (but hey in Livigno all i was watching was BBS world news) and i was on the bed watching that.
we were only 2 in a 4 berth and it suited us fine
the kitchen was bang up todate and had a pack of all the cleaning gear you would need for a week
the bathroom was great with a full size bath and shower, and the toilet was seperate.
the balcony was great and as were the facilities of pool and spa etc.
these new apts all come with free wifi for those who like to keep in touch
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| cockerhoop wrote: |
we were only 2 in a 4 berth and it suited us fine
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There is the answer.
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A lot of people struggle to comprehend floor space sizes in m2. To give you something you can compare it to, a standard parking space is typically 2.4m x 4.8m so is 11.5m2.
Anything less than 8-10m2 per person will feel awfully cramped. Yes you are going skiing but shop around and find some accom that won't ruin your time away.
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I struggle to comprehend square feet! Square metres all the way preferably over 70 sq mtrs.
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| Quote: |
A lot of people struggle to comprehend floor space sizes in m2. To give you something you can compare it to, a standard parking space is typically 2.4m x 4.8m so is 11.5m2.
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Really!
I have often wondered why British estate agents never quote the size of the property, whereas in the rest of the world it is the headline figure. Is it because, as bar shaker says, the british do not uderstand size.
Incidently if floor areas are given in square feet dividing by 10 gives a close guess in British units.
John
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| A lot of people struggle to comprehend floor space sizes in m2. To give you something you can compare it to, a standard parking space is typically 2.4m x 4.8m so is 11.5m2. |
When you put it like that, 17m2 does sound rather, er, cosy 
But it depends how you're using it on your holiday I suppose - how big is a standard hotel room? If you're not cooking full meals for the family in the apartment and eating out most evenings, then I guess it's no different from staying in a hotel other than the fact you have the added convenience of being able to fix yourself a drink or a snack whenever you want and not having to ask and pay someone to do it for you. I always stay in apartments rather than hotels when on holiday, whether it's a city break, beach holiday etc. A nice studio apartment is often nicer than a nice hotel room and cheaper too.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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We have 5 in an apartment for 6 - double, bunks, sofa bed. Is cramped but is doable
My only complaint about any apartment we ahve had to date is the showers are like an upright coffin!!! Just not enough room to move in IMV
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All being well - we think we have found somewhere in La Toussiere that is big and ski/in out... been offered it, I've replied saying yes please, so just waiting for the confirmation email.
So - keep your fingers crossed nobody nipped in between the owner offering it and me seeing the email and confirming we want it.
I hate the waiting - once you've found something you want you just want a confirmation asap. Then I can get on with planning the lift pass/ski hire etc.
Time to get on ebay for some sledges me thinks! oh yes, and a folding snow shovel!
The reason we want more space is that we save money on holiday by not having to go out to eat - so we would normally get back for "hot chocolate and cake" at about 4.30 and then eat about 7 - which still leaves 3-4 hours or so before we are ready for bed - so we are in the apartment for quite a long time.
We normally camp for 3-4 weeks in France in the summer - the tent is 3.5Mx5M + a canopy where we have the kitchen/diner. However, when we go camping we take one backpack of clothes each not umpteen layers and big bulky ski gear, boots, helmets etc, and we have loads of outdoor space to sit in and we shop every few days - when its only a week we don't want to spend time food shopping so we try and plan a weekly menu and buy everything either en route to the resort (or this year because we are driving I'll take most stuff with us) so we need storage.
Anyway - if this deal comes off we will have 60 msq, 4 rings, microwave, dishwasher and a fridge/freezer plus 6 actual beds - 2 to dump the clothes on lol! - luxury!
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You know it makes sense.
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We've stayed in a 25 square metre French appt for the last 12 years, originally with two children, now with one (21, he likes the free deal.....). Bunks in hall, separate toilet, bathroom, kitchenette with dishwasher, sofa bed, balcony. I agree that sofa beds aren't that good and this is likely the last time we'll do this but it's served us well, is warm and cosy, has a TV with dvd. Once you've got some decent patisseries and a bottle of wine on the go it improves by the minute, then you go to bed, up early, croissants and proper coffee for breakfast, then you're out and up the hill. Hell you've gone to ski.....
But everyone is different and my OH and me have reached an age where we want more comfort I think. So next year will be something larger, swimming pool round the corner, lounge with decent chairs. Old story - you pays your money and you make your choice. But once you've closed the door, the snow's the same.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I just assume that Frenchy types like Kruisler eat out all the time
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No. I get the impression that many French families self-cater for their ski holidays, and rarely eat out in the evening. More likely to splash out on lunch. .
It's eating - and drinking - out which can make a ski holiday not just expensive (they're always expensive) but ruinously so.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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andyph,
you know nothing 'bout me! 
pam w, is correct. French people use self catering a lot more than brits do, or they were when I was a youngster on ski holidays with my parents.
We would eat in every nights bar maybe one where we'd treat ourselves to dinner out. We'd often pop in for lunch as well if we hadn't got round to prepare a picnic.
Also we'd often go with my best friend's family, and cousins, so 3 families of 4 and would take it in turn to invite everyone round for dinner one evening. So 12 people in a rabbit hutch. With no TV and certainly no VCR or DVD in those days.. God, we all had to talk to each other, can you imagine?!
Some of the best memories of my life...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I don't understand. Right now I'm sitting in a room that is approx 4m x 6m, so just shy of 25 sq M, and I'm struggling to visualise how you could divide it up to accommodate 4 humans lying down, a kitchen area and a bathroom and 4x luggage and kit hanging out to dry... for a week. If you were livestock on the farm you'd get better conditions.
I rented a place in Austria over New Year that had two double bedrooms, a lounge with a big flat screen etc, a proper-sized and really well-equipped kitchen, a big bathroom and a hall way and an outside terrace/balcony. Overall I estimate 85-90 sq M. Cost under £800 all in inc linen, towels and final cleaning. There was communal sauna and drying room next door. OK, had a short drive to the lifts but I'd swap that any day for a bit of space.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I see lots of "it's really quite OK" comments, but in my experience it is not!
We even got carried away and bought one of those French appartments....oh boy, what a mistake!
Stayed there once with the kids, just too small, no fun at all.
Ever since then we have rented it out and for many years used the money to rent a decent sized place for a holiday.
In flaine we used to rent an 8 bed appartment for our family of 4.
Sounds vast? Far from it! 2 small bedrooms and a small living room that just squeezed two sofas that in theory could have slept another 4 people in there. Anybody mad enough to spend a holiday there as one of 8 would have been able to give a first person account of the Black Hole of Calcutta.
Surely it is supposed to be a holiday, not an endurance experience?
Anybody want to buy a 1 bed appartment in Flaine?
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Bode Swiller, while our business relies on people who have exactly the same attitude as you, reasonable cost ski in/ski out accommodation is often going to be smaller but for some people it's a compromise worth making. I like lots of space if I'm staying anywhere longer than 2 nights, which is why I would always pick to stay in an apartment over a hotel room in that situation (always with pre-made beds, towels, final cleaning etc. and sometimes with daily housekeeping service). We are going away with a couple of friends in May and have booked an apartment like that, but our friends want to "treat" themselves and stay in a hotel, where their personal living space will obviously be less than what we have booked... it's just different priorities.
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Selfcatering is for losers.
It is like living in a caravan without wheels.
Book a hotel.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Whitegold, it's true. All apartments are like caravans. When not staying in a hotel, I particularly miss people knocking on my door at 7pm to ask if they can turn the corner of the bedcover down for me. 
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miranda, just looked at your website - really like the look of it and compared with some of the places we've stayed it looks like heaven. I honestly believe the ski accommodation market (especially in France) could do with a review as the apartments which everyone is referring to on this thread (20 sq M) etc are just not acceptable any more in my opinion. Maybe for one person but not as advertised for 4 or slightly bigger for 6 people. I do appreciate that budget is always a factor but it does seem as though one can pay a lot even for these small rooms. A few years back I decided I would pay more and go for a better quality place in France. Yes, it had a pool but the pool was cold and made from a soft liner so was wrinkled under foot. We only used it once. The apartment itself was tiny even though it was designated in the luxury category. Children still on sofa beds, etc. At the end we had to clean it ourselves as well and we were inspected by a French teenager. My conclusion from this was that there was no contract cleaners - you got the apartment as the other people had left/cleaned it. Which given that we just rushed round with an old ski sock (or similar) and wiped a few surfaced down I would hate to think what debris was left in those places after a season.
Anyway, really want to avoid those places in the future . . .
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Layne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| OK, had a short drive to the lifts but I'd swap that any day for a bit of space. |
Bode Swiller,You paid twice as much as I paid for accomodation over christmas. |
Christmas is effectively a low season week these days so bound to be cheaper. But there's a false economy at play here; we were able to properly self cater, you know, prepare and cook in a normal-sized kitchen, sit at a full-sized table (with chairs) and sling it all in the dishwasher afterwards, then retire to the large comfy lounge or trot off to the pub. Others, on the other hand, in their 25 sq m glorified dog kennels, must decide just to go find the nearest restaurant each night.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| Book a hotel. |
No, book an apart-hotel. The space of a big apartment attached to the ameneties of a hotel. Personally, I hate the turn-down service - that little knock at the door is always at an inconvenient moment. Anyway, been going to the gym so hoping I can manhandle the corner of a duvet now.
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johnnyh, thank you, that's kind of you to say.
The primary reason we decided not to ask people to do a final clean was because we would never book a holiday where you had to spend your last day cleaning.
The second reason was this:
| johnnyh wrote: |
| we just rushed round with an old ski sock (or similar) and wiped a few surfaced down |
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You know it makes sense.
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skimom, The dichotomy is that the French eat in more than Brits when skiing and they accept dated facilities/lower standards more readily when on vacation. It's relatively easy to find cheap accommodation -for example my neighbours let commercially but at low rates as the contents of the appartement are more than 25 years old. Orange pine, CRT TV, tape cassettes, original ovens.
miranda, Comment sums that equation up perfectly
| Quote: |
| is 43m sq and is therefore ideal for 4 British people or 6 French people |
The bottom line is that if you want a modern, comfortable rental with good beds and comfy mattresses, BluRay/DVD/Sat T/Wifi etc which the French don't usually provide or indeed rent, although exceptions will prove the rule, renting from a Brit either locally in resort or via the small ads may well at least enhance the odds of you connecting on the same wavelength.
As Kruisler, says
| Quote: |
| Either you're after "luxury" and pay the price, or you're spend a less, don't get many comforts |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bode Swiller, sorry but in France Christmas week is not low season. Most apartments are the same price both weeks. The price is usually one notch down from Feb/March holidays. Two up from low season.
I've stayed in several small apartments and they always have a kitchen big enough to cook simple meals and a table to seat 4 people comfortably. Every one I've stayed in recently has had a dishwasher. And they all have had a comfy sofa. You could just admit like others have that it is perfectly OK to stay in such an apartment, you just can and want to spend a bit more for a bit more space and luxury.
And the point about driving to the slopes that you glossed over. Some people may see this as no hardship but for me it's a pain I can well do without. I know I could get a bigger apartment in France (or elsewhere) for the same money if I did that. But for me I'd rather forego the space for the ski in ski out convenience.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think Layne summed it up best.
In the end there's clearly a divide in terms of budget and/or expectations between people, possibly countries.
I think this has maybe been made "worse" by the fact that for many years, thanks to a favourable exchange rate, skiing was a lot more affordable for Brits than it was for the French or others. Hence they could afford "better" accommodation.
It was evident to me when said exchange rate collapsed at the start of the recession and every body here complained about the sudden "rising" cost of things. For the locals, prices didn't change much and skiing always was and still is a very expensive hobby.
For better or worse (defo worse in terms of architecture), the "rabbit hutches" helped the masses have access to skiing. I for one am grateful for them as no way would my parents have been able to afford those holidays otherwise.
The thread is evidence that people's versions of "slumming it" vary wildly. As long as everyone can find what they want, that is the main thing.
"Just how bearable is a French apartment?" can therefore only be answered by the OP.....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You pays your money, and you takes your choice. It doesn't have to be a small, poorly equipped rabbit hutch even in France, although if you are looking to keep the cost as low as possible there are options which will suit.
Sounds liked the OP has found a place which is right for them, so good news all round
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Stayed in a few in Les Arc 1800, and Val T at Easter over the last 4 years as a family of four (kids now aged 11 & 9).
Yes it is a squash, usually they are not pretty, but we go for the skiing, and it is a crash pad. We are usually out the door by 08:30, and not back until 18:00, for a quick shower, and then out for an evening meal. Then bed. We just make sure that there is something approaching a separate bedroom to put the kids to bed in first, then move them when we go to bed at about 23:00. We probably don’t spend more than 2 hours a day while awake in it.
Coupled with driving down, using cheap Formular 1 hotel, it means we get to go a couple of weeks a year in school holidays instead of just one.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
I don't understand. Right now I'm sitting in a room that is approx 4m x 6m, so just shy of 25 sq M, and I'm struggling to visualise how you could divide it up to accommodate 4 humans lying down, a kitchen area and a bathroom and 4x luggage and kit hanging out to dry... for a week. |
You're welcome to try our 17m2 place (which sleeps 4) anytime you like - with Snowheads discount of course!
We've generally stayed there as a couple but have done a few times where 4 adults have managed - it can be done! It's definitely a bit Tardis-esque! Anyway, no complaints from the other couples involved - a freebie for them so guess there wouldn't be .
So, yes, it's definitely each to their own! We just love being away, whether camping and mountain biking in the UK or skiing in the Alps and staying in a Formule 1 or small apartment. It's nice to push the boat out on posh digs now and again, but overall, we share ringingmaster's outlook - for us, quantity in terms of number of trips away wins every time.
On that note, we've lost count of the no. of Travelodge sale nights we've had in the last year or two. Of course I've had the P taken out of me by workmates over this - but they all sat at home over New Year while we had 2 nights at Perth Travelodge (one day skiing at Cairngorm, one day mountain biking at Glentress) for a total of £31 for the room for 2 nights .
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
| one day mountain biking at Glentress) |
Given me Spookey Woods any day of the week. (minus the climb to get there).
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Layne, I didn't "gloss over" driving to the lift, it was there in black & white. I actually prefer staying more in town/village location. Your convenience is my inconvenience and vice versa.
I agree Christmas and New Year weeks are usually priced the same but there are always more deals available at Christmas to the extent that you end up paying a low or mid season price if you play it right.
| Quote: |
You're welcome to try our 17m2 place (which sleeps 4) anytime you like - with Snowheads discount of course!
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mountainaddict, 17m2 is 289 sq M - the size of a 6 bedroom house. I'll take it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bode Swiller, m2 should be read as metres squared=square metres so 17m2 is 17 square metres not the number 17 squared 
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Jivebaby, but just not when I went to school... just a wisecrack.
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FAQ
Seriously though, it's really down to what suits. I shared a bedroom with my brother until he moved out at 18 so I guess I'm used to it 
Any week sking with a 4 & 6 year old is going to be an endurance event 