ski schools, exploitative?

A snowHead

Do you think some ski schools exploit their instructors? If your contract at work had the following conditions would you think it was exploitation?:

-Only get paid for the hours you work but wont make any guarantee regarding how many hours, and wont let you work for anyone else.
-Pay you the lowest wage of all resort jobs including someone who shovels snow out of people driveways.
-Make you pay for a pass (in this instance a ski pass) that you need to do your job
-Make you pay to rent a uniform that you need to work, and then pay to dryclean it.
-Expect you to work whenever required including weekends, with no provision for a holiday, and with 1 hours notice.
-Expect you to buy all equipment you need to do your job.
-Do not provide any health insurance for their employees and expect them to pay for it whether they work or not.

these are some of the things i have experienced.

what do instructors think about their working conditions? Any particularly bad stories? Or maybe the other side of the coin and you have an excellent set up. I'd be interested to find out if my experience is the norm

A snowHead

That sounds about 25% as bad as the contract that Adrenaline (in Verbier) make you sign.
My son was offered a job by them and rejected it when he read the contract.

The clincher was their punishment system for any infractions, for example:
Contractually bound to answer your personal phone or call back within 1 minute of a message from HQ.
First infraction....lose 3 hours pay
Second infraction...lose 15 hours pay
Third...dismissed.

Wear any part of your uniorm after 5pm...same rules

Seen drinking alcohol at any time in uniform...same rules.

Absurd!

We checked with a few of their ex instructors and it was confirmed that these fines were regulary imposed, it seemed that it was simply a way of ensuring that staff did not get paid the full amount thus saving costs.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Surely there's a european law somewhere against this?

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Its a hard life!

As ski schools know guys out there need hours to get on with their quals I think they take advantage. Because they are always going to get enough people.

Would be good for the isia to lay down some rules/guidlines so instructors don't get done over.

But there are plenty of great places to work, I think the good out weights the bad currently.

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It's not "normal" for employers to provide health insurance in the UK, though some (private sector) employers do provide it as a perk.

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Wayne, maybe things in Italy are different but these are my experiences and I have no agenda (if I did I would name and shame), believe me I know many schools who do not provide a lift pass (and have worked for them), remember in small resorts there might be only one school, owned by the lift company so they get free passes, it is certainly not normal where I work!

As unbelieveable as it sounds the uniform rental is sadly true.

A patent/istd is paid well, but the British schools I know pay their L2/L3 instructors less than drivers/receptionists/waiters get per hour, and of course those other jobs will get more guaranteed hours, I do not count chalet staff as their accom-on/lift pass is paid for.

I have an e111 already and travel insurance, but the insurance in Switzerland is not equivalent to that, it is a a kind of loss of earnings insurance that is legally required to work. It is approx 160chf/month! Is it unfair to expect your employer to meet this cost?

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Don't know where you work, but haven't experienced that in Austria. Free pass, heavily subsidised accommodation, free uniform (not to keep obv), decent wage (€1300 for a full month's work in St Anton, and €300 retainer [I think, can't remember exactly] if you have no work for a base level instructor [Saalbach is a bit less, but lessons are also cheaper for guests]), organised discounts on getting skis serviced, free meals whilst working (and sometimes organised discounts whilst not working), insurance - and with notice generally you can say if you need some time off/when you will be free to work. Arlberg Ski Schule in St Anton even had loads of transcievers/shovels/probes for instructors to borrow in their free time.

OTOH, wages are a fraction of what the ski school earns per client per hour of lesson.

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clarky999, sounds like st anton is a good place to work, I suspected that my experiences were particular to one famous swiss resort. What is the standard of the accommodation and does 1300 euro cover you for the month?

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skifluff, I've heard a few 'stories' about some ski schools in Switzerland but it's all hearsay I guess, some of the things you describe do seem a little 'out of the ordinary' but to be honest I'm not sure stuff like only being for the hours you work and having no guarantee of hours is that unusual. If the wages really were lower than any other worker in resort that would be a surprise but paying at least something towards a pass isn't that surprising and is certainly usual for part timers and some new recruits in my experience (at least until they've done enough hours to justify a ski school subsidy and haven't skedaddled after a few days with their pass). I've never had to rent a uniform on snow (have had to buy the blooming thing at a dry slope) but have known costs to be deducted from some instructors wages if said borrowed uniform is damaged badly of so soiled it needs expensive cleaning (not me I hasten to add). Where I've worked days off are allowed no problem, in fact sometimes I've had too many so what you describe would be unusual in my experience! I've always bought my own equipment, have expected to do so and don't know of anywhere where it's any different, although as instructors we do get discounts and freebies you know!

So, as I say, some things raise a slight eyebrow as you describe them but not excessively to be frank and there are plenty of ski school employers out there who are probably more generous than you describe but I wouldn't say anything apart from being paid the lowest wage in resort (if that's really verifiably true) is particularly exploitative. If you could let us know privately who your are describing though it'd be useful so we can avoid them just in case lol Wink

Yeah St Anton sounds allright ...

skifluff, I've been treated very well working for Interski in Pila, travel, accommodation, food, lift pass, training, uniform and £200 a week wages for 4 hours a day.

UK, different story. Free skiing. First uniform I paid for, new uniform was free. Only paid for actual hours worked, not rostered hours. Fantastic deal on equipment. Wages barely cover the cost of getting there in fuel.
No incentive financially to improve qualifications, BASI L1 gets paid the same as L2, ISIA or Coach doesn't get any work because they get paid more so are too expensive to use.

You know it makes sense.

Spyderman, when you talk about the UK are you referring to where I think you're referring to?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

roga, Yes, for a "BASI Centre of Excellence" it's not a good situation to be in. Sad

A snowHead

Hmmm, as a supposed 'members organisation' you'd have thought BASI would ensure their own members were treated reasonably and there was a clear career path with incentives to progress!

If it's any consolation I probably get a bit less per hour (certainly was last time I checked) at you know where and have to buy my uniform (although it's now subsidised 'coz I do so many hours). They do pay L1s even less though so there is an incentive to at least get L2 but there's no extra pay for extra qualis after that. I believe many dry slopes are far worse to be honest so can't complain and the ski school guys are a great bunch at you know where. In contrast though the wages and conditions at Cairngorm are absolutely excellent IMHO and the people who run the ski school very fair and great to work for and have a great bunch of regulars working for them too. Even as a part timer there I get a free uniform, all sorts of discounts (including very cheap or free tickets at other Scottish ski areas), a heavily subsided season pass (it'll be completely gratis when/if I get ISIA) and discounts for the family too on the hill as well as loads of discounts down in the valley with the season pass too. The only issue is loss of work through weather but then that's nobodys fault is it unless we blame the big man/woman/person/thing upstairs! Wink

<the_controversial_bit>Strikes me overall though most artificial slopes in the UK are relying on a lot of goodwill, some ski schools abroad are taking advantage of the fact there are a lot of L1s and 2s desperate to get their hours and up do very nicely. There are many others though who offer decent deals but perhaps not as good as they would be if there weren't a ready and if anything increasing supply of instructors keen to get their hours in (great for BASI coffers but I'm not so sure it serves the market or those who are working their way up the ladder rather than just doing it as a bit of gap fun all that well!). Personally I don't expect to make a mint (I'd be stupid to) and I've come to the decision that I'd rather do what I love for a low wage than struggle until retirement age doing something I don't like just for money. However I don't want to and can't work for starvation wages so I hope the majority of decent ski schools stay that way in the future and don't take advantage of what could become an over supply of instructors and I hope BASI are as aware of this issue as they are of their ever expanding bank account!</the_controversial_bit>

A snowHead

roga, BASI exist for one reason only, to look after themselves, to line the pockets of their own trainers. What do they do for their membership? Bugger all.

It's all about providing courses to boost their own bank balance.

I used to swim competitively, I know someone that teaches swimming, outlay one whistle and a pair of Speedo's, pay £21 per hour and they don't even get wet.

BASI have done nothing to advance the pay and conditions of their members.

I fortunately don't teach for the money as is the way with most part-time instructors in the UK. Slope operators exploit their instructors love of the sport by paying ridiculously low rates of pay.

I teach when I want to, I constantly get emails requesting that I give more time, when I get valued and paid properly for the time and investment I've made into my qualifications, I'll consider it.

Rant over.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Spyderman,

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beanie1, I'd love to have the time to stand for the board, but I don't.

I did however go to both London & B'Ham Ski Shows and visited the BASI stand in both cases, all that was on offer was someone selling BASI Insurance and another selling BASI Gap Courses.
Last year the Chairman was there along with several other board members. Progress I suppose. rolling eyes

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Last time I looked at the accounts BASI made a relatively small surplus on it's annual operating revenue, smaller than other not-for-profit organisations I've been involved with but not worryingly low. If BASI is a money-making machine I'm not sure where the money goes. It seems to me that the staff (full-time such as those in Head Office, or contractors such as BASI Trainers) are not extravagantly paid. There's a new Head Office building, but to me that's a good asset to have, and it's not as if it is located in prime real estate in the centre of London which many national organisations aspire to.

There's no doubt that getting qualified is an expensive business, especially once you get to L3, because of the wide range of modules you need to do. The actual cost of each module I think is good value for money. For example in what ski school could you book a BASI Trainer for a fortnight's full-time course, including on- and off-snow time, with a group of skiers well matched in ability and aptitude for £560? The easiest way to reduce the cost of getting qualified would be to reduce the number of courses you need to do. But this would mean that BASI qualifications are no longer recognised by ISIA. That would be an important point on which the membership should have a view: cheaper, but possibly means less employment prospects...

The question of whether or how BASI should promote its members interests is a key one. Is BASI a ski instructors' union? Should it negotiate pay and conditions of employment of behalf of members, collectively and individually? If the answer to that question is yes it needs to acquire a new set of skills/staff who are used to negotiating on behalf of employees because I don't believe it has that expertise at the moment. It probably also needs to change its charter, articles, etc. It then needs to start getting union recognition at a range of employers, some of which will be UK based but others will be global (so a new set of employment regulations to become expert in for each country in which a significant number of BASI members work). Or is BASI a professional body which is principally established to set and maintain professional standards, to admit members to the profession when they have demonstrated they meet those standards, and to represent the profession as a whole to national and international organisations concerned with professional standards. It is the latter model that BASI follows now, and if my scant understanding of its establishment in the late 1950s/early 1960s is correct, that is the reason for its establishment.

Fair points Rob although given the expansion of BASI over the last few years since the L1 qualification started I find it a bit strange with all those extra members and courses being run that they're not all that flush - did that building in Grantown really cost that much Wink

The most commonly voiced criticism of BASI that I hear, both from part-time working members, former members and members of other organisations (SSE and UK based CSIA & PSIA members) is that they are only interested in taking members money (courses being very expensive in comparison to some others and the ever expanding base of L1s provides lots of members subs) and that they don't represent the interests of members below ISTD that well. That's a perception that might be unfair and inaccurate when looking at the accounts but it is easy to come to that conclusion particularly at a slope which has had a lot of BASI L1s pitching up who are in no way ready to teach (shadowing at L1 is frankly hardly comprehensive and the rules allow this) and have to be trained up by the slope. This, certainly to an outsider, could suggest an organisation that's more interested in getting paying numbers in than actually producing instructors who can teach quality lessons to beginners. Additionally they have also recently come into contact with some of the products of the ubiquitous gap courses BASI seem so keen to promote who even at L2 seem to have had little exposure to the sorts of teaching skills that are required (some of whom apparently haven't taught independently at all), personally as a L2 non gap qualified instructor (working through the L3/ISIA modules) who has done probably more than twice the required 200 hours of independent instructing on snow and on dry I find that shall we say not a little puzzling and rather embarrassing when I'm called on by said non-members to defend the quality of what BASI is doing!

I have no problem with the number of courses BASI requires for L3, particularly given the coaching and Mountain Safety modules are stand alone qualifications in their own right, it is expensive but I want to keep developing and get as highly qualified as I can at my stage of life. Where I do have a slight issue is if people are getting signed off on lower qualifications who perhaps (if the experience of gap students I relate above is anything to go by) have little or no experience of teaching even at L2. I take the qualifications seriously and am therefore willing to pay what I consider generally to be reasonable prices, certainly when compared to equivalent training with a ski school, but I find it 'difficult' when I feel my qualification is being questioned by people outside the organisation as a result of their experience of some of the people being given 'equivalent' qualifications to me in gap type courses.

As for the union/professional body issue I don't think anyone is calling for BASI to start negotiating pay and conditions however I do think questions should be asked if BASI are giving what can only be described as a seal of approval to slopes in the UK that are apparently neither paying a decent basic wage or using their pay structure to encourage their instructors to improve their qualifications. Surely the latter can't be in the interests of either the instructors, the clients or of BASI (although I guess they still get membership fees and refresher fees)?

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roga, interesting comments, and lots in there for debate. A couple of points which might be worth expanding on:

Representing non-ISTD members - I have my own views on this, but I think it might be helpful if you could go in to a bit more details, particularly what kind of representation would be helpful for those people who are working their way up the qualification pyramid (either with the intention of getting to L4 or stopping at L1, L2 or L3). What could BASI do for L1-L3 members, and what should they do?

Teaching quality - that's always a challenging issue for professional bodies who maintain qualifications. Do you think L1 and L2 should be tougher? If so, what aspects? It's worth bearing in mind that there is currently no absolute requirement for independent teaching experience prior to obtaining an L2. My first teaching experience was on a mountain with a group of 10 teenage girls, all of whom were beginners. It was a nerve-wracking start for me, but was typical perhaps of many L2s' experience? It some point everyone is going to be a first-time instructor. Should that be at L1, L2, L3? Where do you draw the line? Should the shadowing experience be different? Would ski school economics allow a pre-certified instructor to work along time a certified instructor to improve their teaching skills in a real situation and still be paid for doing it? I continue to shadow good instructors because I want to improve my teaching skills, but obviously I don't get paid for doing that, so would it be right for BASI to expect much more unpaid shadowing/supervised teaching experience before it issues the qualification?

Just one comment about pay and conditions - IMO an organisation should either get involved properly or not at all. I don't think it would make sense to grant or withhold 'Centre of Excellence' status on criteria which included how much instructors were paid or whether their pay increased with better qualifications. From a commercial point of view, how many extra paying clients do you get because you can advertise yourself as a BASI Centre of Excellence? I'd guess the answer is very close to zero.

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Spyderman,

A snowHead

With regards the comments above re employment conditions, BASI is a qualification training and awarding body, not a union.

I have asked for a definition on the criteria for BASI centres of excellence.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

In response to the OP:

Over the years i worked for ski schools in Scotland, Italy, USA, NZ, France. Never had guarantees of any hours (apart from Italy but then only 4 hours a day). Often (Scotland) had very 'thin' months, but then back then we did it for the fun/atmosphere/vibe/mountains.

Only place I ever paid for a pass was first season in 3V due to politics between ski school & commune.
Never had to rent a uniform, but certainly had to dry clean some at end of season.
'Expect you to work whenever required, including weekends' - yes, everywhere I have worked. Weekends in particular (for a lot of resorts these are the busy days!). But most places I worked were relatively flexible re time off outside peak times.
'Expect you to buy equipment' - yes, everywhere I have worked, but then there was always a good deal available either through teh ski school/mountain or pro form.
Have never had anyone offer health insurance as part of the deal...

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After i had my shiny new badge and had completed my shadowing hours, CRB First aid etc i asked what my pay rate would be at the dry slope where i did my shadowing hours, the answer was "we don't pay part time instructors, but you can use the slope for free". I voted with my feet and drove over an hour to work at Milton Keynes where they had a pay and benefits structure.

I do fear the glut of L1's coming through wont help pay rates but statements like

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Yeah, BASI are OK on most things. Think some courses are good value, other not so much, trainers are usually top of their game and inspiring in my experience, and BASI attempt to maintain international recognition for their members.

Dont know why we are talking about BASI, this thread was about peoples experiences working for ski schools.

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ski schools, exploitative?

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