 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm thinking of doing a BASI trainee instructor course this season. Generally I'd say, though many would prbably disagree!  , that I'm a fairly reasonable skier (ski down double blacks and the odd treble, done a bit of racing, etc, blah, blah,...), however one thing really concerns me about doing this course - my snowplough is for want of a better description a bag of sh*te. I find it dificult to make enough of a wedge to have any useful slowing down and turning effect, and find that after a (short!) while my hips and thighs feel like they are about to explode.
Does anyone have any tips, exercises and/or stretches for making my snowploughing a bit less painful and a bit more effective?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stuarth, Perhaps this would be a good time to build up the use of the muscle group on a dry slope. The extra friction should help. Or a sex change, get some wider hips, bit of a Q angle, should see you all right 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stuarth, Very good advice and exercises from ski, . One additional tip though: most adult males (and some females) when opening into a plough, flex at the knees and sit a little. this backward move is what causes the hip pain - it's very common for men. Try to keep your hips well over the balls of your feet; you'll feel increased braking and less hip pain. You should aim to have a V in the skis and a V in the legs - not a W or an O. Try also to think that the brakes on the skis are in front of the toe binding - this is where the pressure needs to be. Failing all this, come here in winter and practise on the 5½ Km Chemin des Desmoiselles - if you can't do it the first time, do it every day until it no longer hurts - I promise this works!!! (kill or cure though!)
Good luck. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thanks for the advice everyone, I shall get down to my dry slope and practice some of those things (I don't think I'll practice the sex change bit just yet, though if all the other things don't work...!  )
easiski, what do you mean exactly by a V in the legs not a W or O ?
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stuarth,
Don't worry about it - you'll be taught exactly how to snowplough on the trainee instructor course! And if you're a versatile skier and are prepared / able to adapt the way you ski and unlearn old habits I'm sure you'll have no problems.
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beanie1, is that a suble way of saying the current BASI way of doing snowploughs is like nothing you will have heard of before? that's certainly what I found! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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i found my snowplough absolutely hopeless on cross country skis (where it is both more important and more difficult). Didn't slow down enough, and it hurt. I had thought I was fine at alpine snowploughs, but of course I don't do them very much - hence my complacency. The cross country lessons identified my weakness of technique which is exactly what easiski describes. Sitting back a bit, pending the knees too much (so knees too close together - hence the W I think - look down and legs are like two Ws sideways on!). Then sticking my arms out in vain hope this would get weight further forward. Ghastly. The less you slow down, the more you do all those things wrong, and the more awful it all becomes... especially knowing that the usual casual hockey stop would be sure to end in tears, in skinny skis with no edges. But at least I now know what I am doing wrong (took easiski approximately ten seconds to diagnose) and what to practice. I have a vision of a pisteur snowploughing down a steep slope with a stretcher - a vision of technique and fantastic quads! Not a W in sight. And no bum sticking out. Cross country skis are fun to try, by the way, and far more difficult than you might think as soon as you are on a slope. Very good practice.
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stuarth, As pam w, says: a W is when your knees are too close together and an O is when you open your knees more than your heels. ie: either knock kneed or bow legged.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stuarth, One of the ways I like to assess skiers - is to see how/if they can plough ! Make sure you get some feedback from someone who is either a trainer, - or has recently been through the BASI system (preferably a 1 or a 2). Asbeanie1, said
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And if you're a versatile skier and are prepared / able to adapt the way you ski and unlearn old habits
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you'll be fine.
Does your nearest slope have a training program ? What helped me through my three was to have done a LOT of practise, and teaching on the plastic first......
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Arno,
Not at all! Just for most people it will have been such a long time since they were actually "taught" how to snowplough.
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You know it makes sense.
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I didn't know anyone still taught a snowplow or that the term still existed in ski teaching vernacular.
I will open Pandora's proverbial box by asking why anyone, particularly in todays era of shorter shaped skis, would teach a snowplow.......yes I know I dropped the u! Good skiing is not about friction and/or scrubbing off speed.
I'll toss out a teaser by suggesting if a student feels the need to plough.....ok I did it......they're "over-terrained".
Why teach purely defensive, "I don't want to go there" movements?
Put learners on terrain where they can glide at a comfortable pace with speed not being an issue. They will develope a functional stance from the outset.
I would suggest a far better idea is to begin students in a setting where they learn to glide from the outset. Aspen has done some wonderful things with first time students. The pupils are put on terrain that is so gentle that they seek the fallline as opposed to shying away from it. Ski teaching is made much easier when new students are initially taught that turning can be a time to go faster. "Fast" for a new skier may be 5kph. Too many students are taught that a turn is a control mechanism or a means to slow down. A turn should simply be a turn. A ski racer is never seeking to slow down. He/she turns......to go somewhere, to the next gate, and go is the operative word.
Defensive movements become a cancer in skiing. I often say to my students that they spend all kinds of money to get to the mountain and then do everything they can to keep from sliding down the mountain.
Leave the plowing or ploughing to farmers.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Rusty Guy, This has been discussed to death. What do you do if you don't have that terrain? What about fat Mrs Jones at 45 who's only thought is how do I stop? I'm not getting into this debate again.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Rusty Guy, Being a recent beginner (Jan 04) it does seem daft to initially learn a technique that you then spend the rest of your skiing career trying to unlearn! Although snowploughing can be a useful low speed braking mechanism, say in a busy lift line.
One problem with your 'straight to parallel' suggestion is that total beginners in the UK often go to one of the indoor slopes/dry slopes for a few lessons or a 'ski in a day' package prior to their first holiday - I did the same. Even the nursery slopes at these venues are too steep for what you suggest, so snowploughing is probably the only method that can be used to give speed & directional control.
During my first few lessons in resort in France the ESF instructor, whilst teaching the snowplough, stressed to the group that it was purely a transitionary technique & that our aim was to be parallel skiing as soon as possible. He encouraged us to get as much tuition as possible (well he would wouldn't he ) to ensure that we passed through the snowplough stage as quickly as possible so that it would not become too ingrained & would not develop in to a 'crutch' for the future. I think all of our group were parallel, or almost, by the end of the first week.
I now have 6 weeks under my belt & practice regularly but I was lucky enough to get 2 weeks skiing/instruction in a period of nine weeks & 3 weeks skiing/tuition in a period of only 20 weeks, with dryslope tuition/practice in between. For me this really stopped the snowplough developing in to a crutch as it only occupied a few days out of say 17 days skiing at the time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I frequently use a snowplough in certain situations! Sometimes you just need it - like sideslipping as we discussed elsewhere. Lift queues for example.
I can see how over-facing a beginner with too steep a slope can lead to "defensive" snowploughing. But surely a good skier needs as large a "tool box" as possible - and the snowplough is one of these tools?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Exactly, I can think of situations where the most expert of skiers has no choice but to snowplough.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PG, ski jumping.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Not quite what I had in mind, but yes
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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It's interesting, I've been having some coaching at the local dry slope for the past few weeks and there they put a lot of time into getting you to snowplough properly, now at first I thought it was a waste of time, but last night I noticed that it has improved my parallel technique giving me a smoother run down the slope with better turns, I think that because the snowplough lets you ski slowly it is much easier to get used to the correct weighting and unweighting of the skis on the turn, it also helps instructors see if you have balance problems, for instance last night it was very easy to see that not only was one chap sitting back slightly, but he also seeemed to aquire a lean to one side after his first turn, with a little effort on the instructors part he lost the lean, however he still occasionally leant back during his runs. His young son was much much better at learning than he was
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D G Orf, ohhh
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weighting and unweighting of the skis on the turn
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think you'll be opening a can of worms there!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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beanie1, yes I know, and it's probably not how I would describe things, or even how I'd teach things if I were doing it, however it does seem to work for the instructors there.
Mind you they had a new trick last night that I've not seen done before, a backwards parallel traverse at about 15 degrees across the slope (which is no problem and I've seen done before) followed by a jump turn of arround 150 degrees facing up the hill so that you can do another backwards traverse, repeat as necessary to get down the slope, I chickened out of the jump turn and did a falling leaf instead, ok I can see that it helps with confidence and possibly even with control, but I can't for the life of me see a practicle use for it on the mountain
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D G Orf, Neither can I, but many exercises don't have a practical use. they are what they say on the box!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, glad you can't think of a use for it either, still I guess it's a confidence thing, you have to have control, agility and confidence to turn like that on a 20 plus degree slope which is what the top of Christchurch dry slope is, I've got the confidence and control but not the agility to do a 150 degree jump turn facing up the slope
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You know it makes sense.
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of course there are instances when a plow is needed. there are times purely defensive skiing is needed.
abstem, stem christie, hop turns are all a part of expert skiing.
i merely suggest it should not be the foundation of a beginners first lesson.
I am not a proponent of PMTS nor am I DTP (direct to parallel) There is a big difference between a snow plow, a wedge, and a functional "gliding wedge. The difference? Stance width, edge angle, a lack of "tails being pushed out".
I also agree wholeheartedly that some students "unlearn" the defensive movements. Why take the chance?
It was merely the use of the word plough with or without the "u"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think over here we don't normally differentiate between "wedge" and "snow plough" - they are both the same thing. The difference would be between a "gliding" and "braking" plough. And like you say, many instructors don't teach the braking snow plough as it can develop bad habits - it just tends to come naturally when needed. Also, most instructors (or the ones I know anyway) would start with parallel sliding, using terrain to control speed as the first step for a beginner, before going on to the gliding plough.
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Poster: A snowHead
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beanie1, exactly....the differentiation being intent, terrain, stance width. i want to be clear I'm not anti wedge. i love glancing through my friend ron lemasters cite and finding wc skiers in transition in a mild wedge. convercion or diversion simply occurs.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stuarth, when you learn to snowplough as an instructor, you've got to remember to move painfully slowly and to be rather static in your posture i.e. quite the opposite of what they teach you in ski-racing. Because you're static, it's easier for an instructor to pick out what you're doing wrong (arms slightly too low, not rounding your back enough, knees not at the correct angle).
In the CSIA level I course you are taught to look where you're going and smile. It's so easy to forget to look up since you're travelling at a snails pace and trying to make sure your feet are in a wedge.
It's a bit tricky but no harder than winning at Monopoly. 
The BASI instructors shouldn't expect you to get it perfectly first time, just as long as they can see you're getting better by taking their advice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Snowy,
Not sure I agree with you about being static in snowplough - unless I've mis-interpreted what you've said.
When I did my BASI course we were taught to begin introducing stretch and bend at the snowplough stage - so you're getting movement into the skiing right from the start. As an instructor you have to really over-emphasise this movement and as a trainee this can be the tricky bit to get the hang of - until now you've probably only used a snowplough for practical reasons, rather than turning. The trainers will really be looking out for this movement in snowplough turns - you will probably need to loosen off your boots.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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beanie1, Oh yes lots of up down movement in snowplough turns at Christchurch last week, expect I'll get more of it tonight as well
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beanie1, D G Orf, So what does the 'up and down movement' actually do ? 
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ski,
Extension to put pressure on the new outside ski at the start of the turn. Flexion (sp?) to absorb pressure that builds up towards the end of the turn.
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beanie1, that's different from what we were told when i did my BASI course (which my explain you sounding a bit bemused by my comment about about the BASI technique being alien to me). got the impression that they had chopped and changed this bit quite a lot over recent years
We were told to start the turn just by pointing the skis where we want them to go. ie NOT by pressuring the outside ski (which is how I was taught and how i find them easiest to do). once the student had got used to this, we moved on to absorbing the pressure building through the turn. obviously once you've flexed your knees/ankles to absorb the pressure you need to stand up again but this wasn't really taught as part of the turn. the emphasis was very much on rotational movements.
have to say, i didn't think that this was a great way to teach snowplough turns. apart from anything else it seemed to concentrate too much on rotational movements and not enough on using the skis' edges
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beanie1, Thanks. Was (slighty) worried the term 'unweight' was going to be used.
Arno, I find the 'pointing the ski where to go' works really well. At this point in their learning, out skiers haven't (yet) felt the edge of the ski. Asking them to pressurise it (in some cases) results in a flat ski, and a turn in the 'wrong' direction. Once they've felt the edge of the ski, and grip, pressure control and build-up can be played with....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ski,
No worries! Many instructors do still use the term "unweight" though. When I was shadowing I followed one instructor who explained to her class that you stretch to make the skis lighter and easier to turn... Made it a little difficult for me when she let me take part of the class, not wanting to contradict her!
Arno,
Yes, sorry I was talking about later stage snow plough turns, "pointing" would be the first stage. What's wrong with rotation though? It's one of the elements used when turning and will continue to be used to various degrees as they progress, depending on the type of turn.
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beanie1, I meant that being fairly static is what doing snowplough feels like - you don't really absorb the terrain like you do when you're speeding along so you feel quite locked in position, other than small adjustments to how flexed the knees are.
It doesn't help that it's hard to bend my boots while travelling at 1mph, doing straight-running (CSIA exercise for beginners before turning is introduced).
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FAQ
He refused to produce a valid licence (let alone a Carte Professionel), and left me feeling bitterly embarassed that people like him still claim to be ski teachers. 
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