 Poster: A snowHead
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Interesting -so who looks the best? French & Swiss & maybe Canucks for me. Japan looked horrible, Austrians robotic ( though to be fair that was footage of some dreadful coordinated exercise rather than a free run). |
Canadians for me, then Swiss. Japan looked horrible to my eye, and the Germans looked pretty dated (Yanks too). Think they only showed the synchronised display form the Austrians, which is a shame.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Think they only showed the synchronised display form the Austrians, which is a shame. |
Lots of the routines are on this channel - www.youtube.com/user/paralleldreams1
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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DB, The Man. Probably the skier that's inspired me the most.
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AndAnotherThing.., misread that. For a moment I thought you meant the skiassistant inspired you the most... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This is a great thread with interesting videos!
You want to like the skiassistant bloke since he seems nice and very enthusiastic but his teaching is a bit of a train wreck. I want to turn away but can't help clicking on his other videos to see what he does next  .
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FlyingStantoni, LOL - Yep, Doug Coombs.
But I wondered if Mr Skiassistant is a member here......
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| DB, The Man. Probably the skier that's inspired me the most. |
Yes me too. I'd rather to able to ski like Doug than the robotic position perfect ski instructors (although there isn't much chance of me being able to emulate either  ). Near perfect turns on piste will help in the backcountry though. Was Doug's skiing perfect? - no. Did he sometimes use extreme counter and skarve his turns etc? - you bet. To me it's like trying to compare a top level driving instructor with a top level Formula I or rally driver. Doug had a style that no textbook could capture.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| DB wrote: |
| Was Doug's skiing perfect? - no. |
There is a lesson there for sure 
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Who skis perfectly, all the time? I'll bet that Doug Coombs could have done bloody good short radius turns down the fall line to a demo standard any time he wanted to.
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You know it makes sense.
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This counter stuff just confuses me - it seems that if I'm reading the thread correctly BASIoids are saying its a bad thing or at least not fashionable while others are acknowledging that out in the real world it's very necessary in certain circumstances. A case of where doing things by the book only takes you so far?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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DB, It's the difference between 'input' and 'output'.
Racers, Freeriders and the others don't give a stuff what it looks like, only that it works. Very 'ouput' focused.
Instructors tend to be more 'input' focused because they and their pupils performances are judged subjectively when they ski.
It's interesting that the only module in Instructor training that is completely output focused (i.e. measured) is the timed Euro Test.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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AndAnotherThing.., Fair points but its not the whole story I think. If you look at the BASI L4 vids I could see who I thought looked the "best" which in my mind were the most natural and flowing candidates and this happened to correlate with the passes. So I hypothesise that without any technical criteria you could have a reasonable ski instructor technical test effectively based on speed and fluidity down given terrain.
Of course this wouldn't particualrly help candidates who need to deconstruct the elements of their technique which need most attention and similarly lots of lessons would be a bust if the key advice was to "just ski" and "look natural". So the input focus is entirely understandable and only gets to be a problem if individuals lack the ability to "zoom out" again in order to put it all together. Pole use is a good example. Mine is utterly shambolic but then whenever I see someone who has obviously worked very hard on it I get an immediate gut reaction to the robot look which discourages me from doing anything self improving with mine.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, Just making an observation rather than a judgement (!) between the two.
As you say, while trying to improve a technical element an input focus is perfectly natural. Pole planting is an interesting example, you could argue that it's a means to an end so perhaps a different way to evaluate your skill would be in how it's helping (or not) you ski a particular slope.
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But - there's a big difference between videos of beautiful skiing, and videos which do anything useful to help us ordinary mortals ski better. That's where Fastman's videos are so good - they do go step by step. I have a Phil Smith one, which is hopeless from that point of view, though I have it on good authority that's he's an excellent teacher on the hill.
But the Fastman DVDs go on for hours and hours - and actually trying to do the stuff yourself takes a lot more hours and hours and months and years. I suspect some people looking for resources on the internet expect a pretty instant fix.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DB wrote: |
| Don't get me wrong I'm not saying skiing lessons aren't a worthwhile investment. |
I don't think you are, but I do think that a false dichotomy has been set up between "real" skiing and "instructor" skiing. I don't believe that a distinction like that exists.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I don't think you are, but I do think that a false dichotomy has been set up between "real" skiing and "instructor" skiing. I don't believe that a distinction like that exists. |
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But is there a distinction between "conscious" and "unconscious" skiing? I imagine most instructors when demoing are thinking quite hard about what their skiing looks like whereas when freeskiing they might be thinking a lot more about line, external factors etc
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| Quote: |
don't think you are, but I do think that a false dichotomy has been set up between "real" skiing and "instructor" skiing. I don't believe that a distinction like that exists.
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In the distant past when I was doing seasons the best skiers on the hill were instructors or stagieres (sp?). Not all the instructors were the best skiers mind.
Seeing the guys and gals from the stade pick up their powder skis and head down the back bowls was a sight to behold (which also caused me to again re-evaluate how "good" I was at skiing).
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| fatbob wrote: |
| But is there a distinction between "conscious" and "unconscious" skiing? |
There might be, and for many people there probably is. I think it's better to distinguish between the context or purpose of the skiing you are doing. Are you doing a demo run so an external observer can see clearly the movements you are making? Are you skiing balls to the wall, as fast as you can through gates or down the steepest line you can imagine? Both scenarios are equally "real", just have a different purpose. One scenario might be more inspiring than the other, another might be more useful if you are trying to pick up some tips on how to improve your skiing. But at the end of the day good skiing is good skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar,
So are you saying that if someone can ski like the demonstration skiers in the video that they can ski like Doug Coombs in the backcountry as the skills are exactly the same?
If you stay on the piste and are a recreational skier chances are that "real" skiing for you = "instructor" skiing. I'm not trying to deminished the important of ski instruction, just pointing out that near perfect text book moves are not always used by the best skiers (e.g. Backcountry & racers).
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| DB wrote: |
| So are you saying that if someone can ski like the demonstration skiers in the videothat they can ski like Doug Coombs in the backcountry as the skills are exactly the same? |
No, absolutely not. There was a good reason why Coombs was a world famous skier.
But are you saying that Coombs would have been unable to ski a nice demo run of short or long radius turns because his ski skills were only suitable for extreme off-piste skiing?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| DB wrote: |
| ...just pointing out that near perfect text book moves are not always used by the best skiers (e.g. Backcountry & racers). |
Has anyone said that they are?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DB, + I think the L4 vids have already established that individuals can get to quite a high std in Instructor skiing (i.e a L3 pass) and still be pretty shocking in a real world environment (e.g.nasty bumps).
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| fatbob wrote: |
| DB, + I think the L4 vids have already established that individuals can get to quite a high std in Instructor skiing (i.e a L3 pass) and still be pretty shocking in a real world environment (e.g.nasty bumps). |
Are those the vids of L4 candidates where very few of them passed because they were nowhere near the standard for a pass?
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| So are you saying that if someone can ski like the demonstration skiers in the videothat they can ski like Doug Coombs in the backcountry as the skills are exactly the same? |
No, absolutely not. There was a good reason why Coombs was a world famous skier.
But are you saying that Coombs would have been unable to ski a nice demo run of short or long radius turns because his ski skills were only suitable for extreme off-piste skiing? |
I'm sure he would put in a performance that would be better than most although his short turns may have been compromised by his equipment. His skills may have also been better matched to softer conditions (e.g. as Ivica Kostelić excels in softer piste conditions). more importantly some of his skills (e.g ablitiy to skarve deep steep powder) would not be demonstrated.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 17-11-11 15:00; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yes those are the ones. It's a bit of an unfair call because they'd obviously reached the standard to pass on L3 bumps but I've got to say the standard they had surprised me (assuming they'd taken care of all the routine variables e.g. they were on the right kit, fit and healthy, not excessively hungover, warmed up etc)
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Poster: A snowHead
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DB, i shouldnt get involved in this but are you saying that piste skiing is somehow not "real" skiing. Your idea that instruction is all about making "moves" and specific postures and "look" is about 20 years out of date... Instruction went away from moves a long time ago and now is about instilling basic skills that people can take anywhere on the mountain.. As an example When training ski racers are honing and perfecting skills spending loads of time doing very repetitive and specific drills to obtain a skill, when in a course they use those skills that have become unconscious to allow themselves to rip the fastest line while getting thrown around by ruts, negotiating gates etc.. They dont try to hold a position or make a specific "move" same as a backcountry skier who uses his skill set to flow down the mountain, how is someone skiing skillfully down a piste any different?
anyways this thread is about technique resources not the old freeskiers vs. piste skiers (racers) argument.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DB wrote: |
| I'm sure he would put in a performance that would be better than most |
I'm sure you are right. He was a world class skier who I'm sure could adapt his skiing to any challenge, any context, you cared to mention.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Even that is questionable IMO, although very difficult to judge from a short video clip. Probably worth pointing out that as far as I can see nobody is saying the abilities of L4 wannabes is the same as a world class pro skier like Doug Coombs was.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've gotta go but will come back to this later ......
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob, Those bumps in VD are pretty hairy and these guys are in a high stress exam situation. As you think that standard is "shocking" as an idea why dont we have someone video the upcoming SnowHeads bash in Tignes and film a few typical SH's skiing the fall line on the steep section of the Tommeuses bumps run... be an interesting comparison.. I am not being critical as there are plenty of ski instructors that suck in the bumps (me included) and loads of good recreational bumps skiers that absolutely love skiing bumps
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It's interesting how this thread has morphed.
While I like to think I can ski a decent offpiste line, I have no doubt that instructors who are miles better than me on piste will also be significantly better offpiste. I've seen that once in St Anton...I was very happy with myself in the middle of a day where I felt I was skiing gracefully, fast, aggressive...when a local instructor passed me at about twice the speed and the style.
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skimottaret, You know what the result would be  And I didn't mean it as a pop at BASI standards - I'm pretty sure those bumps would be downright nasty anywhere, just an illustration of how possibly excellence in one area doesn't necessarily carry over. Anyone else think their poles seemed too long - pretty easy fix to buy some variable length poles?
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| fatbob wrote: |
| just an illustration of how possibly excellence in one area doesn't necessarily carry over. |
Not an opinion I share. I think it's perfectly possibly to ski to a decent standard generally, but be weak in some contexts. But I don't think you can excel in one area but have distinct weaknesses in other areas. If you genuinely excel in one area you're a good skier, and can adapt your skiing to whatever you want. I don't think it's possible to be a great off-piste skier but be a poor on-piste skier.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, Nonsense - ever seen Herman Maier boosting it in the superpipe? Me neither but then he's not some 8 st midget. Less specifically of course you're right on the general theme - being an excellent piste skier will of course help you considerably in other areas. I also think if anything the dichotomy between being a piste and off-piste skier is a false one. There are lots of occasions where skiing off piste can be considerably easier than skiing on piste. Ultimately it's all just skiing.
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| Quote: |
boosting it in the superpipe
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That wouldn't be skiing, it's just d**king around.
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FAQ
, something to look out for this season. I have so many issues of my own I feel embarrassed debating ski technique so I will leave it to others 
