 Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
some kids will be less inclined to be brats with an instructor than with their parents - especially if their parents habitually let them get away with murder. |
yep - I skied with one... she was not really a brat... just a late life child from a second marriage for both parents who were high achieving in their business worlds...
She wanted Dad's attention badly and refused to let them put her in ski school (not helped by a bad experience overseas)... When I skied with her and her parents she was an OKish skier but would not pay attention and pretty whiney... every fall was a sook session, the snow was too hard etc etc...
We took her to my private lesson (she liked skiing with me and we made it a 'treat' to go) so that her parents could have some time skiing together...
My instructor was NOT into teaching kids... he treated her more like a grown-up than Daddy's baby- made her carry her skis and expected her to listen and try... and she adored him.... wanted to ski with him ALL the time...
Eventually we found one of her school mates in a ski school class while we were heading for a chair lift... my instructor helped to make it easy for her to chat with her buddy... she headed to ski school with her buddy the next day... loved ski school and wanted to stay for the race at the end of the week - for which Dad even put off a business meeting so he could stay skiing the extra few days....
She was fine NOT skiing with Dad... just she was Dad's baby and he treated her that way... once she had other people that treated her as a responsible child she came to the party - she was a very bright and likeable girl... but very very spoilt
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| AndrewBailey wrote: |
| Having seen lots of ski classes with crocodiles of children barely able to see what the exercise is or waiting ages for their turn I can't help but think private lessons with an instructor are the ideal. |
For several years I've been keeping an eye out of the biggest ski school crocodile and it currently stands at 23. Yes. 23.
(There's a bit of me that admires that instructor for even trying!)
Personally, I think this is more of an issue to do with the ski school than the concept of group lessons. I'd usually recommend that a friend learns to ski or board in a group, rather than having 1:1 lessons as they benefit from the shared experience and (generally) benefit from being around skiers of the same level.
I think that one of the biggest issues for parents is actually at the other end of the scale. If your kid is (really) good then it's actually very hard to find lessons that will really push them without getting into a race / ski club of some sort.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
As examples, and in the interests of provoking hopefully useful discussion, would anyone like to offer up:
- how to snowplough "correctly"? (Bonus points if you can find the incorrect snowplough advice in an earlier post  )
- what is a "good line" (as alluded to by steve_angus)?
- why you shouldn't get too hung up on a child's skiing posture when they're young (generally under 7)?
- how you get someone who is snowploughing to ski parallel? |
- it's not the use of the big toe that makes the snowplough, it's turning the feet (use rotary before pressure and edging).
- a good line is one where all turns are completed ( a C shape rather than an S or Z shape)
- a child has a different center of gravity than an adult - thus will always appear "back".
- snowplough to parallel achieved at first by skiing easier terrain and hopefully a spontaneous match will occur.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FlyingStantoni,
| Quote: |
As examples, and in the interests of provoking hopefully useful discussion, would anyone like to offer up:
- how to snowplough "correctly"? (Bonus points if you can find the incorrect snowplough advice in an earlier post Toofy Grin )
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Fair point. Last saturday at Hemel (whilst you were having your lesson) you might have noticed a young girl (in green pants and white jacket) performing perfect form snowplough through all of the moguls. It really impressed me, enough to try and replicate/attempt it. I failed miserably; as did most of the other snowHeads present, many of whom gave up trying after a few turns. We all agreed that she was very impressive. I regret not complimenting her or her father, who kept a respectable distance behind although close enough to come to her rescue if required.
As a technique/skill I'd say we all use it as required but seldom as part of a set of linked turns. With few exceptions I'd say that most folk who've progressed from snowplough can't/don't use the technique as prescribed. Of course this is just my perception as an unqualified judge of other peoples skiing, and with only a few weeks of skiing in recent years.
Edit - a few apostrophes and T's
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I must admit that I was largely focussing on (trying to) sorting out my own crappy habits.
I did spot her on one run through the bumps though. Beautiful turn shape and movement - which is why it looked so nice.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| alltnaha wrote: |
FlyingStantoni, I'm not so sure why you object to
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Parent's flying "outrigger" for little children.
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Our kids have skied from 4 yrs old and as they progressed we have taken them on suitable slopes. But there are a lot of fast and worse out of control skiers and boarders on blues and greens even in " ski tranquille " areas and so we did position ourselves above our kids to try and prevent any crashes .
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Because you take up the whole piste, because, invariably, JR is skiing irracticly; because the parents typically can't control their own speed and because they're typically filming and not paying attention.
Because I've been literally forced off piste and injured by such inconsiderate parents.
Parent at the front setting a good line; child; parent at the back. You are not, repeat not, migrating geese.
People skiing out of control isn't good. But kids have no extra rights here and I've seen people skied into by kids and then berated by the parents, which is simply unacceptable. |
yeah it really pisses me off when 4 year olds pass me and cut me off like that 
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| little tiger wrote: |
yeah it really pisses me off when 4 year olds pass me and cut me off like that |
For sure. It's important for kids to learn at a young age that the downhill skier has the right of way, and owns the slope from trail edge to trail edge. It's up to the kid overtaking others to yield to them when passing them, no matter how they turn or where they go. The downhill skier owns the slope, and passing too close to them is reckless and rude.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Some more random thoughts:
As a 'bottom of the heap' instructor, teaching children forms a large part of my teaching time.
Its interesting that the BASI level 1 instructors course does not make the very important distinction between the teaching styles and abilities for different age groups. This is made more anoying however as this material is very well documented in the coaching level 1 course material. The old CSIA manual (on which i belive much of the BASI stuff was based?) dedicates a chapter to teaching children.
I learned to my cost on one session just how much children learn by watching, on one revision demo I made the mistake of tapping my bum to help show which leg my weight was on.......only to have to spend the rest of the session getting my group to stop tapping their bottoms.
With the very little ones, learning through play and letting them have plenty of 'guided discovery' time seems to work the best.
The most difficult thing with teaching groups of kids is managing the parents  especially when you have a couple of pushy dads trying to 'out do' each other through their kids.
making the lesson fun and enjoyable so that they really want to come back and ski some more is worth far more in the long term (IMHO) than getting little Johhny to sucessfully complete a set of drills so his father can show off.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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well said: kevindonkleywood
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With the very little ones, learning through play and letting them have plenty of 'guided discovery' time seems to work the best.
The most difficult thing with teaching groups of kids is managing the parents especially when you have a couple of pushy dads trying to 'out do' each other through their kids.
making the lesson fun and enjoyable so that they really want to come back and ski some more is worth far more in the long term (IMHO) than getting little Johhny to sucessfully complete a set of drills so his father can show off. |
Also for whats its worth - GOOD POINTS made by FlyingStantoni
| Quote: |
As examples, and in the interests of provoking hopefully useful discussion, would anyone like to offer up:
- how to snowplough "correctly"? (Bonus points if you can find the incorrect snowplough advice in an earlier post )
- what is a "good line" (as alluded to by steve_angus)?
- why you shouldn't get too hung up on a child's skiing posture when they're young (generally under 7)?
- how you get someone who is snowploughing to ski parallel? |
1:To snowplough correctly stretch and rotate both legs out from the hip socket so that the feet are displaced wider than the hips (only marginally) - this creates 1) friction to help control speed (and line) 2) stability (your centre of mass is spread over a larger area) and 3) DON't get into the habit (as most people - often kids do) of thinking that the snowplough is your brake and handbrake.... it can be but in the same way as an emergency stop in a car works you would not want to use it all the time when driving for obvious reasons....... so speed is controlled by snowpough turning and plough gliding..... steer clear of talking about edges in snowplough as if you are too edgy you actually cannot control speed (or direction effectively enough). Personally as soon as rounded snowplough turns are habitual then getting students out of using the snowplough becomes the norm - this is done by (amongst other things) getting the centre of balance narrower which in turns leads of parallel turns.
2: simply a good line is a rounded flowing line - not 'Z' shape for sure and not too much in the fall line ('l' shaped?) so that speed increases each turn beyond the limits of ones control.... generally an 'S' shape turn is best wherever you are on the mountain but this is not always the case.
3: aswell as having a heavy head relatively and therefore a higher centre of gravity kids also do not have leg muscles that as well formed (proportionally) as adults - therefore kids until they get near to or at puberty 'brace' their legs underneath them in a tripod style form hence skiing posture will never really look like an adults (teenagers). HOWEVER (and it is a BIG HOWEVER).... if a kid has a VERY wide (bracing) snowplough then this needs working on so that they have the potential to start coming parallel!
4: from snowplough to parallel is generally the longest part of ski learning as it requires developed balances (mainly laterally) as well as co-ordination etc. ANYTHING that gets someone balanced on the correct (outside / turning ski) ski will help move towards parallel... Very often as people 'think' parallel is getting the skis to move together no matter what the 'cost' all sorts of weird moves start happening like throwing the body around or the hips around or stepping the inside ski..................
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| For several years I've been keeping an eye out of the biggest ski school crocodile and it currently stands at 23. Yes. 23. |
I temporarily had a crocodile behind me of 20 (my fellow instructor had to go retrieve a ski pole which had been dropped from the chairlift by one of the kids). It was shocking how far away from me the last few kids were.
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... when I taught skiing in Japan I was teaching groups of Japanese teenagers (they were there to learn English as well as learn to ski at the same time - it was interesting and fun).... anyway we would take a whole class (school class) of about 30 but one time it was up to 36 and I can honestly say it was like teaching about 12 westernised kids.... they LISTENED well they FOLLOWED INSTRUCTIONS and when you told them to do something like get on the lift 2 x 2 they bloody well did so but 36 kids following you down a slope - you needed binoculars to see if any had fallen over at the back!
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pam w, it was the easiest way to deal with it, not least in terms of being the quickest way to calm the girl who was very upset at her mistake. It was a short excursion to retrieve the pole, so I had his group plus mine for about 200m. The kids at the back of the group seemed to enjoy the "extra responsibility" I gave them of making sure we were the neatest ski school snake on the hill.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Is being at the back of a 20-child crocodile, a 'shocking' distance from the instructor, more or less advisable than being shepherded around by your dad?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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paulio, it depends.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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the kids at the back of the crocodile just follow on, doing the same kind of thing as the child in front, sort themselves out, pick themselves up, watch their mates fall down. Could be worse; somebody could be telling you what to do and giving you lots of advice you can't take on board at the age of 4 and trying not to look and sound exasperated and you could be much, much, the worst skier in the group.
I did hear one lad, of about 9, at the back of a ski school group, in rather nasty weather, looking very unhappy and saying, over and over again, as they passed me "j'en ai marre, j'en ai marre".
I was learning more French than he was skiing.
I have not seen any child with an instructor being treated as badly as one tot, skiing in front of his mother and falling over, clearly exhausted and fed up. As she skied down to him she said, crossly "I told you not to fall over!" . She was English..... English parents are the worst, I suspect, because they have one week to ski and want to get it all done. Most of the French kids I see pottering round with parents (or more often grandparents, as mum and dad are off having fun) seem to be enjoying themselves. I sat at a restaurant a couple of years ago and watched a lad of about 5, snowboarding with his dad. He was like a little teddy bear, in a beige ski suit, and he was having a BALL. He would fall, roll over, laugh and get back up on his board. They were on the nursery slope, lapping the drag lift, for a good hour. I saw them several times during the week - it was a real pleasure seeing how much fun they were having together.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
| 1:To snowplough correctly stretch and rotate both legs out from the hip socket so that the feet are displaced wider than the hips (only marginally)...DON't get into the habit (as most people - often kids do) of thinking that the snowplough is your brake and handbrake...steer clear of talking about edges in snowplough as if you are too edgy you actually cannot control speed (or direction effectively enough). Personally as soon as rounded snowplough turns are habitual then getting students out of using the snowplough becomes the norm |
Some key differences from how you might have learnt to snowplough:
- the snowplough shouldn't be too wide - feet just wider than hip width. If the snowplough is too wide then the person will just end up someone sitting back
- the emphasis is on rotating the legs from the hip socket - not pushing the heels out
- knees in line with toes - not collapsing inwards like you need a pee
- modern technique is to have a "gliding" snowplough, rather than an edgy one. In the "old days" skis didn't have the same sidecut as they have today and they had to be put more on edge in order to create any sort of a turn. In truth, you'll always have some inside edge when you're in a snowplough - it's just that the very little edge you have is enough to get the skis turning
- control speed by being on very flat terrain and letting friction slow you - or by skiing a good line
- change direction by "pointing the toes where you want to go" - not by leaning over to one side, "driving the knee in" or "pressing the big toe".
| Steve Angus wrote: |
3: aswell as having a heavy head relatively and therefore a higher centre of gravity kids also do not have leg muscles that as well formed (proportionally) as adults - therefore kids until they get near to or at puberty 'brace' their legs underneath them in a tripod style form hence skiing posture will never really look like an adults (teenagers). |
Postural changes will reflect the growth spurts that kids have at 7 (ish) and puberty. Very few kids younger than 7 will be able to ski efficiently with an upright stance. If you force them into an upright stance then there's a good chance that they'll be unbalanced.
It's quite normal for a child to get "worse" at skiing when they have a growth spurt because they have to re-learn how to balance - just in the same way that kids (and boys in particular) get clumsy around the growth spurt.
| Steve Angus wrote: |
4: from snowplough to parallel is generally the longest part of ski learning as it requires developed balances (mainly laterally) as well as co-ordination etc. ANYTHING that gets someone balanced on the correct (outside / turning ski) ski will help move towards parallel... Very often as people 'think' parallel is getting the skis to move together no matter what the 'cost' all sorts of weird moves start happening like throwing the body around or the hips around or stepping the inside ski.................. |
Generally, the way that this is done is to ski faster on gentle terrain. As people ski faster then tend to naturally ski parallel. But only if they're on terrain they feel safe on and only if they are skiing a good line. It means being patient and skiing within technique limits on gentler terrain - rather than being in a rush to ski steeper stuff that pushes technique.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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FlyingStantoni, do your knees collapse when you need a pee? 
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right now we are are making this thread way more productive and us amateur teachers/supervisors of our own kids are starting to learn some technical stuff. Little pointers like under 7's can't ski efficiently upright are very helpful. Thanks I'm all eyes picking up tips 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| FlyingStantoni, do your knees collapse when you need a pee? |
It depends on how desperate I am!
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
| It's not until they go through the learning/teaching side of things do they really learn the mechanics of it all! *disclaimer with exceptions of course!! |
There's a recent thread asking about skis for a BASI L1 course and indicating that the OP believed that high-end slalom skis would be what was the most appropriate ski.
In truth, most of BASI L1 and L2 is about taking your skiing apart and putting it back together again.
I did an adults "gap course" and only one person out of six could ski all the way down a slope at a constant speed when we started the course.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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jirac18, IMHO opinion, the biggest favours you can do your kids if they're in ski school is to restrict yourself to the same slopes as the ski school has taken them on and to talk down what an achievement it is to ski red and black slopes.
I've had lessons where the kids of pushy parents have spent the whole week asking whether / when the instructor would take them down a red / black.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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FlyingStantoni, Quite agree. I have completely accepted I am not on a "lad ski trip" this time round and I am actually more excited at the prospect of watching my wife and kids develop so they enjoy skiing like I do. I intend to do exactly what you suggest but also spend my mornings of free skiing by myself researching really good routes we can all do together for when they do want a bit more variety.
It can be a bit of a misconception to think all the good nursery slopes and easy blues reds etc are down the mountain when I'm sure you'll agree often the best ones are way up high with good gondola access if needs be.
I am never one for grading enjoyment or suitability of a run by its colour. I've been on blues harder than reds and vice versa, in fact there were loads like that in Sauze d'Oulx last year around the Milkyway. Mind you the way the Italians sign post I wouldn't at all surprised if they just randomly put the wrong signs up!
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You know it makes sense.
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FlyingStantoni,
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IMHO opinion, the biggest favours you can do your kids if they're in ski school is to restrict yourself to the same slopes as the ski school has taken them on and to talk down what an achievement it is to ski red and black slopes.
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Superb advice (IMHO) well said.
The only thing i could add is that the same applies to skiing with adult friends 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
Parent at the front setting a good line; child; parent at the back. You are not, repeat not, migrating geese.
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If you object to this then that's the whole of ski school goes out the window. Long strings of skiers taking up the whole piste as the zig-zag down (often taking up the width twice) is an infuriating aspect of ski school groups. You have the choice of either going off piste (my usual choice) or slowing down and waiting for a gap to appear and cutting through. By comparison the idea of 3 people taking up the whole slope fades into absurd insignificance (it is literally something I have never come across despite having skied for a very long time - whereas in the days I used to ski pistes, having large ski school groups blocking pistes was a regular experience.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 6-11-11 15:01; edited 2 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
having large ski school groups blocking pistes was a regular experience
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To be fair ski school groups like this are usually on the lower ability slopes
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's a blank page for me, so difficult to comment. If you are interested in the physics or biomechanics of how skiing works you should read Ron LeMater's book.
Just had a look at that site. It should carry a health warning: "using this site will break your skiing".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kevindonkleywood wrote: |
| Quote: |
having large ski school groups blocking pistes was a regular experience
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To be fair ski school groups like this are usually on the lower ability slopes |
I remember it as worst on red slopes. I don't especially remember it on black slopes.
On one occasion even going off piste didn't work. The group had been zig-zagging the width of the slope as I approached so I went into the narrow strip of off piste heavy powder on the left. But at exactly that moment I was about to pass, the ski teacher went into this strip without looking and stopped. I had literally nowhere to go as his first pupil was close behind him, and had to go off a blind edge. Luckily I didn't drop far and didn't hit any rocks but climbing back up was quite difficult. I don't know if the teacher noticed but he certainly didn't look to see what happened to me.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Indeed. People should also look at it in relation to the 'parent at the front, parent at the back' point. It is a magical bit of video, though, whatever the pros and cons of what these parents are doing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Sorry just could not help myself
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kevindonkleywood, if you had, someone else would soon have come up with the same (fair) question.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
Just had a look at that site. It should carry a health warning: "using this site will break your skiing". |
What is it about this site that will break your skiing?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| In ski boots though you can not move you ankles much, and the only way to make one ski higher than the other is to bring the uphill/inside knee forward |
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I like this, too:
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The ends of the poles should be far enough above the snow that they shouldn't catch on anything.
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Until you need to use them to push yourself along in a lift queue, presumably?
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FAQ
I would have thought this would be a "no no". Tell them anything dropped stays dropped. I'd be very annoyed if my kids was at the back of a 20-strong snake just so that little Johnny didn't lose his ski pole! If a child drops his friend, then a brief stop to make a swift call to piste rescue would be in order. 
