ski schools, exploitative?

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clarky999, Are there lower levels than Landes 1 that you also need to get through? For instance the BASI numbers above exclude BASI 1 and 2 don't they?

And as an aside, why would anyone wanting to get through BASI 3 or above not just base themselves in a resort for the winter to maximise training time?

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rob@rar,

, must have double counted somewhere Wink

. Yes, I would expect Coach1 to go up.

Back to the OP - yes it's not great. When I started teaching last season it was a bit of an eye-opener the difference between what the customer was being charged and what the instructors were being paid. As a part-timer, I just about covered my registration costs, but essentially made nothing - so I won't be giving up the day job in preference any time soon (the pension plan would be the only viable financial option, and that doesn't look promising at present). But it's supply and demand. The problem now is that in the current financial climate the demand is going down so it's not going to be much better for instructors (at least part-timers) for a while.

I'm on the SSE trail rather than the BASI one, and they seem to make the bureaucratic overheads as high and expensive as possible which further devalues the utility of any quals, to the extent that I often wonder why I bother - other than the desire to put something back in to the sport I've got so much out of.

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Hi All. Some clarity on The Snow Centre Hemel Hempstead:

We do pay ISIA and IVSI coaches a higher rate and will continue to do so. As a centre the demand for higher level qualified instructors is very specific to certain products like instructor training, performance coaching etc. I feel it important to have these guys around to offer support and inspiration to our team. However most of what we do here is teach kids and beginners.

We have simplified our basic rates as we have been working with over 100 instructors on 7 different rates of pay. You are not going to get rich working here thats for sure! However I try to add value in other areas like discounted equipment, discount in the resturant, and free training. I have a very open door policy and am always open to offer development training to my team or advice. This dos not come with an invoice from me (hopefully that has some value)? I think we have created a very positive environment in that area.

When you look at our rates, they are comparable with other facilities, and the companies that employ BASI instructors to teach for 1 or two weeks in the season. My Son Dan working in Austria and gets paid between 10 and 12 euro an hour with a maximum of 6 hours a day.

I would love to be in a position to pay much higher rates, nothing would make me happier (or popular)!! However, unlike a mounatin based ski school we have to create the mountain and the snow and run a huge expensive building. We have a bank loan in the millions to pay back, and when the season finishes in the Alps the costs stop (to a point) ours continue but revenue drops dramatically. Alpine based ski schools probably have an office and a few admin staff (for the season). Our council rates have just gone up for the year by six figures.

A slightly broader understanding of business is required to see the bigger picture I guess.

This is a great facility and we all take lots out of it in different ways. The alternative could be to have NO facility.

I dont think it is BASIs role to dictate instructor rates of pay to ski schools, this would be very complicated. BASI is not a union, its a training body.

No one forces an instructor to work for us (or anyone) its a personal choice. Its not a government imposed sentence. If its not for you, dont do it!

I agree with offpiseskiings comment, its cost a trainer to deliver a BASI course in the season.

Hopefully this has just given a balance to some of the comments.

PSG

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gilleski, thanks for the contribution.

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gilleski, Thanks for clearing things up with regards to The Snow Centre pete, perhaps one of your instructors is a bit out of touch with your policies...

You know it makes sense.

clarky999 as well as the required amount of mandatory training within a ski school working in Austria (or at least in Tirol when I was last there), as well as the entrance exam for the Landes. Of course there's the requirement for Anwaerter snowboard which was in the past within the Landes 1, but from people I know that have gone through this, isn't always a guarentee, I believe most candidates are expected to have it before the course.

Aside, most of the cost of going through BASI courses come from the side expenses of travel to a resort, accomodation, lift passes etc. Looking at the course prices for level 3 themselves, from what I remember they are actually similar to the Austrian Landes, although this is based of a glance at the training pack I received from the TSV a year ago.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

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skifluff, Dont disagree with you here. I started in Austria, took their Austrian qualification (basic levels) and still 20 years on have a great relationship with the ski school. Its important to not get all carried away with the 60 euro an hour dream (its there but you will need work in France). Its all about where you want to work and what you want to do. As a career instructor I chose to go in to the BASI ststem as I felt I would need it. Glad I did as I have had (and am having) a good career with it. Had I decided to stay in Austria, would have stuck with the Austrian system.

PSG

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skimottaret, Fully aware of the policies thank you.

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skimottaret, Did I not also write this?

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Further clarity:

We do employ coaches (IVSI and ISIA) and they do get a higher rate.

However........

We tend use them for specific products (instructor training, performance coaching, schools race training, freestyle).

We have around 6 IVSI / ISIA coaches who work for us, mainly very part time ( 4 hours a week each). Theses coaches run regular sessions (Saturday morning performance coaching, Tuesday evening instructor training, bumps training, thursday evening rookie freestyle, parallel plus coaching, staff development) generally they are available for theses sessions and run theses on a weekly basis. Occasionally they will work as instructors with the general snowsport school products.

If I need to bring in a guest coach, then I will agree a rate with them for the session I am asking them to deliver.

Opportunities for IVSI and ISIA coaches to deliver specific products are limited. So if a coach approaches me about working at TSC it is my duty to explain what the opportunities are (they are limited)

ISIA candidates are normally looking for a semi / professional career in snowsports ( given the investment and time) and will be looking beyond TSC as a source of income. We have some ISIA instructors who work with us seasonally between winter periods. They understand the limitations ( Dan Gillespie being one of them)

In terms of what I need as a snowsports school manager, it's a similar model to a typical Austrian or Swiss ski school. Lots first level instructors to teach beginners, level 2 to take higher levels, a few IVSI / ISIA to train the staff and inspire new instructors. It's not really a requirement for you to have your off piste security module to work at TSC : )

I personally encourage personal development and support my instructors in every way I can. But if they are investing in ISIA then they need to set their sights beyond TSC long term.

Finally.......I didn't Wake up one day with an ISTD badge pinned to my chest. I worked at the dry slope straight out of school (16 years old) on one of the government youth employment schemes, took my club instructor and ASSI award, went to Austria when I was 19 and worked for peanuts, did anything I could between seasons ( including making tomato sauce one summer for McDonalds, built a business with Warren Smith using our dole cheques, blagged our way around Verbier for a few seasons, then took my BASI levels, failing a few along the way! I don't come from a poor family, neither a rich one, just rather normal. Paid for all the courses myself, had some very hard times financially whilst doing it, now I have a good professional career.......so in short, it's tough and if you want it just bloody get on with it, no one is going to hand it to you!

PSG

Very Happy

After all it is free

gilleski, offpisteskiing, Sounds like life at the moment,,well said Very Happy

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gilleski, offpisteskiing, how you made a career in skiing is inspiring stuff to me, and a lot of the basi trainers I know have similar stories, infact it seems to be the case that a lot of basi trainers have come from relatively modest backgrounds, and this certainly isnt to detract from what you have achieved but the landscape has changed and im sad to say stories like yours simply wont be the norm in the next few years.

The number of basi exams to get to ISTD has increased, and the eurotest has been introduced (not arguing for/against it btw, it is what it is). Lots more money on training/exams. MUCH greater number of instructors in the system, glut of gap-yahs taking the lower end work for poor pay. I know my peers (british ones) well enough to say that unlike perhaps 10-15 years ago, they are now mostly extremely privileged, with financial support I cannot ever hope to receive, they can fill jobs and not need to worry about any seasonal shortfall. An overwhelming amount started instructing via a gap course, then paid for ISIA training. Now im not saying that they arent hardworking, talented teachers (some are/some arent). Its just they can afford to absorb any seasonal shortfall. Some of these guys want to make it, others just to be in a bubble away from the "real" world and will sit on a job for 5 seasons then go back to the UK and work for daddy. That is just the way it is.

The ones that do make it will be the next generation of basi trainers. Cant see many people from more modest backgrounds coming through. Is it fair? Not really, but i'll get on with it, the british ski schools dont give a damn either way.

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skifluff, I see the same trend amongst the upcoming generation of arts administrators in this country. There are very few paid jobs coming up at lower levels in the arts (well, certainly in classical music, which is where my experience lies) internships are the name of the game. I don't like to think of our great concert halls, festivals, orchestras and opera houses all being run by trustafarians in the future, but who else can afford to get themselves on to the career ladder by taking unpaid work in cities? Mind you, at the moment, significant numbers of these institutions are being run by Australians, so this could be an improvement. wink

(That is a joke, btw, they're doing a good job on the whole, though it is perhaps a shame that, allegedly, there are no equally competent Brits to recruit.)

Sorry, slight thread drift, but it's a general point - and not a new one - that it's easy to exploit people who want to do a job they really love and who, at the end of the day, are not going to be seduced elsewhere by big pay packets. And, beyond exploitation, the end of that particular trend is bound to be that only privileged people, who have been born into money, are going to be able to get on to the ladder at all.

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skifluff, Cant completely agree with what your saying, we have a bunch of guys on our course starting next week that are working crazy hours doing hard jobs all summer to pay for it and will certainly go on to get their ISTD.

I am still working all kind of shifts in all kinds of factories, doing removals and sometimes working two jobs at a time to fund and try and find my way in the ski industry. There are still plenty out there working hard to try and make it a career. It sucks whilst your doing these kind of summer jobs but it gets to this time of year, you look out the window and it is all worth it Very Happy

skifluff,

You know it makes sense.

slikedges, not sure what you mean by 'fair' but a person having the hugest fun working has still got to eat and have somewhere to lay his head. Also, most, if not all, 'fun' jobs include large elements of drudgery, and, in any event, it's not necessarily good for any industry (I use the term loosely) to end up being run by those who can afford more financial pain. If being paid a fair whack for the job you do, whether it's more or less fun, is having one's cake and eating it, then bring on both the cake and the cake tin, please.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Pedantica, eh? Which bit is confusing you? It's irrelevant what the demands, needs or desires of the person doing the fun job - if it's fun someone out there may be prepared to do it for nothing or next to. If someone can't afford to continue to do the fun job, they'll just have to go get a proper drudgerier one like the rest of us. I didn't say it was good for any industry to be that way, some just are. Being paid lots of money to do a job that is inherently great fun to do is having your cake and eating it. Very few people in that privileged position I'd say, and most of those that are, worked and outcompeted others to get there.

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slikedges, "lots of money"? Can't recall using that phrase or even implying it. Thanks for clarifying - to some extent - what you mean by 'fair'. I believe you're a doctor, no? And do you enjoy your job greatly? Your argument doesn't really stack up if so, except to the probable extent of having 'outcompeted' others. But perhaps one simply can't generalise: I can see a clear analogy between the ski industry and the arts (where, by any reckoning, it is patently neither fair nor beneficial to the industry as a whole, for rich kids to get the jobs) and other such analogies are perhaps not so easily drawn.

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....WOW have been off the internet for 3 days as packed up at Hemel last week and traveled out here to Val and totally missed the whole of this thread.... taken me an hour to try and read it all.

I suppose I have been full circle and agree with lots of what has been said and also disagree with lots. In bullet points a few thoughts:

1) yes there are lots of L1 instructors out there - as far as rates of pay are concerned then the reality of the beast is simply supply and demand.
2) some places like France you can earn great money but it does take years of building your skills, experiences and qualifications up and the £20k I spent on getting my ISTD is being paid back slowly - in the same way that getting qualified as a doctor or any other profession costs LOADS but you do get it paid back little by little.
3) Gap courses are becoming the norm and yes organisations do make a killing out of them and sometimes they produce good instructors (of people who have the potential and sometimes they don't.... I have taught gappies and you can tell a mile off who will use the qualifications (not a large percentage) and those who are spending daddy's credit card cause daddy likes the idea of son / daughter getting something out of their gap year.... the gap course fills a role but it is not the only way into the proffesson.
4) some ski schools I have worked for and organisations have REALLY taken the p**s when it comes to pay and conditions - others and more generous. However paying for lift pass and uniform is pretty standard as far as I am concerned.

Anyway BASI is NOT an expensive system - the add-ons such as accommodation is expensive - course fees only are very reasonable. BASI trainers don't get paid particularly well for the courses they run but as someone said earlier it is a change from regular lessons, gives you a fresh perspective and keeps your name out there. BASI have a very tough job as they need to encourage people into the profession (hence in comparison to other system) the L1 is quite light on the ground in terms of length and content and at the other end of the scale BASI have an enviable reputation of being able to get instructors into the European market place which is no mean feet!

Anyway im looking forward to reading more on this thread - just wish I had been reading it last few days so could be more involved with it!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Pedantica, you didn't use "lots of money", I did. It was figurative, I meant 'a sum of money in excess of what the labour market could command in the absence of other overriding factors' but thought that 'lots of money' would probably be just as well understood. Sorry if I was wrong.

You're still missing the point which is not to expect big (or even reasonable) rewards for doing a job (or engaging in an activity) that people will generally enjoy enough to do for little or no reward. What difference is made by what my day job is is completely lost on me. You do like to get personal, don't you? My points apply to the generality of occupations or activities that are inherently cool or fun or desirable for what they are as opposed to for the pecuniary benefits they bring. I haven't even made specific references to ski instructing much less any personal references. BTW what's your inside leg measurement? Wait, hang about, don't answer, it's none of my business.

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slikedges, whatever you say. The point missing appears to be mutual.

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As we seem to be back on the original topic, here’s my tupenyworth:

I have, since 1995, worked form lots of difference ski schools, some exploitative, some not. The majority of the ski schools that seem to take the p**s (from my experience) seem to be run from by UK based companies – in fact from my personal experience the “only” ski schools that take the p**s are run by UK based companies.

The reason for this appears to be quite simple. In the UK, a ski instructor’s badge is not seen being a “real” qualification. I know of (and so does virtually everyone in BASI) of a large employer of BASI’s that pays it’s, non instructional, resort staff more than their BASI instructors. Why is this? Well the simple answer is that they can; as there is a sufficiently large pool of L2’s who treat being a ski instructor as something they can do as a break (a holiday pastime), consequently they will accept pocket money – no matter who much the “remuneration packed” is dolled up by the marketing dept, who have dragged in such items a transport, accommodation, etc, etc. It’s still pocket money.

The fact that a job is enjoyable should have no bearing on the wages offered, but it does to some companies, who will eloquently argue that they can simply not afford to pay £## as this would make them non-competitive. Bol**cks. In another thread PSG was talking about the need (with various lesson/skill levels) in rock climbing/mountaineering to have certain grades of instructor. I employ, in the UK, LOTS of outdoor instructors and pay them all a flat rate £100 per day (it’s depends on how you work it out but generally that’s between £26k and £36K per year pro-rata and this is WAY above the UK norm) and know of LOTS of other companies that pay about £30 to £50 per day. So it can be done, IF the company values their staff and their staff’s qualifications.

The general gist of it that many BASI members are their own worst enemy when it comes to wages and conditions. They seem to have accepted that the badge that they went through all that stress to get is worth very little (financially) and the companies that “need” these employees are only too willing to encourage this idea that “you enjoy it so you can’t expect to get paid much”.
___________________________________________

There is no simple answer to this, but it should be born in mind that the original thread title "ski schools, exploitative"

should really be changed to "ski schools run by UK based companies, or –some- British ex-pats, exploitative when employing BASI L2’s and 3’s."

But not sure if that would fit in the title box

PS, I have not mentioned UK fridges or dry slopes as I have no experience of them

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Wayne, we have just had a great centre open in Hemel called XC, it's a climbing centre along with other activities ( BMX etc). Don't think the instructors in there would need a ML award to coach on the wall? Doubt if they have, in fact I think they are probably qualified in house. The ML award would be rather pointless in that environment? Like I said, you don't need your Off piste security module to work with us in TSC.

The rates you pay your leaders sound very fair. Would I be right in assuming you have not invested in building some kind of centre for your activities to take place? Therefore are not having to depreciate a capital loan, run a facility all year round despite seasonality , pay staff to manage all aspect of your business all year round, pay council rates and so on.

I also run another business www.petesilvergillespie.com which is a much simpler model. I take on clients, employ Instructors to deliver a product, pay them (well) pay all my costs for that week, and go home. When I get home I am no longer paying my Instructors, hotels and expenses etc. It's just back to me maintaining setting up the next course with limited cost.

Different business models require a different approach. I am sure there are many people on this forum who are in business and understand business. Controlling costs is a business fundamental ( as Greece has recently found out)!

On another note, nice to see you yesterday!

PSG

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gilleski,

Hi PSG

This is the 1st time EVER I have said this to a trainer - Very Happy

You're wrong
OMG - Pleeeeeeese don't fail me if you're on a course with me Laughing

Explanation - yeah I know that the people outside St Paul's will not like this (but instead of sitting there doing sod all protesting about stuff, maybe they could REALLY help the country by getting a job and paying taxes, ooops Shocked

).

Anyway, no I don't have a climbing wall - well I do have a few, sort of Puzzled

, but not in the way you mean.

As an example, you know when you drive into Wales across the big bridge. If you look to your right you'll see a line of cliffs - I own them (and another old quarry up the road, about 5 miles aways).
If you go to the steam railway museum in the midlands, if you look across the fields at the back you'll see a line of crags - I own them
etc
etc (I have 5 - so if anyone wants to buy a stone, let me know, as I have LOTS Little Angel

So yeah I do have costs that may not be immediately obvious (you would not believe the insurance and taxes required to own a lump of rock). Oh the reason I tend to buy lumps of rock is that: A] I can (sorry St Pauls protesters), B] So climbers can keep using them, C] No one else will, except property developers and that would stop B, D] I use them to run climbing courses on
Oh, the old quary in staverton - I bought that as the RSPB wanted to buy it, and they are, lets just say, not the nicest people in the world to rock climbers, so I outbid em.
On ALL (that's "ALL") my lumps of rock I never put any restrictions on them. Anyone can use them for free and do whatever they like, whenever they like (try asking that question to the RSPB)

But I still say that an SPSA is virtually worthless - not always, but most of the time. I did notice you mention that were awarded in-house, don't even start me on that one Sad

Anyway back to the topic - I have not a clue about UK fridges or dry slopes as I have no experience of them. BUT, it seems to me that the reason BASI instructors have problems with wages and conditions is the P**s taking by UK based companies and ex-pats, who just know they will get away with it.

After all it is free

Wayne, Wrong? This can not be possible........I am a trainer! Ha ha ha fair play to you!

I don't think it's just UK companies that seemingly take the p@@@. Austrian ski schools also don't pay high rates and I'm sure there are many other examples out there.

Sounds like you own a fair few rocks!

PSG

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gilleski,
I have it, the solution to all the problems.

For the L2 course don’t give people a lift pass. That way only the people who really want it (I mean REALLY want it) will pass.

And, for the L1 - there needs to be a (Simon Cowle styleeee) audition. Ask them to say Grass. If it doesn't rhyme with Ass (as in association) they fail. Mind you, this would get rid of all the cockneys (that’s anyone who lives South of Manchester) so another test could be to show them a picture of an Avocado spoon. If they know what it's for, this can be taken a positive proof of gap-yah inclinations, and they fail.

This will reduce the numbers passing and so, as the current instructors get old and die/drink themselves mad/go senile/become trainers/ become “real” off pister’s (ZZ top beard n all) / etc there will be less available and the rates of pay will rise (supply and demand)

And I thought this was a complex problem, pah it’s simple.

What do you think - next AGM or what?

Help!!

ski schools, exploitative?

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