 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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For what it's worth, I wear a helmet because it doesnt fall off like a hat does, and it holds my goggles on, but I bailed spectacularly today in deep powder, jumped off a wind lip, stuffed the landing, went feet, head, feet, head, feet, head, straight on to a buried rock, and bounced straight off it 
Bloody happy about that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Flet©h, thanks for that, if I can remember it all I'll use it to try to explain away my actual observations in future.
Not that I care to explain either fall, and not that I actually fall that much, but the first was not longer after I switched to boarding, about ten years back. A reasonably minor one where I caught a small bank of snow, went over the back of the board and slammed into a rock hard trail.
The second was possibly the last run of the day, five or so seasons back, and I was motoring on a desrted trail. Well it was 'til this punk kid popped out of the trees, jumped the cush at the edge, and fell right in my path. Flipped onto the toe edge, caught the heel edge on a scraped bank of snow, and, being as I was doing around 35 mph......Credit to the kid, he actually came over, as I wasn't moving much, and said something like 'dude like you ok? You must have gone a dozen feet through the air, bounced a coupla times too'.
But hey, what do I know, I was only there. And as I'm not trying to promote helmet use, as I've already said, just relaying my experiences, I'm bowing out.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
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A neutral observer could quite correctly observe that this is actually evidence that wearing a helmet is pointless as the outcome is the same with and without.
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Eh? That makes no sense.
A neutral observer, having seen the falls, should be able to tell if one was worse than the other, so the only time they would be able to correctly make that judgement is if they did observe the falls to be very similar... Do you know that they were, or have you just finished a psychology degree or something? |
It makes perfect sense. A fall when skiing/boarding is such a complex system no observer would be able to correctly establish the forces on your head, no matter how different the falls appeared.
Maybe to be more precise I should have said "A neutral observer could quite correctly observe that this is not actually evidence either way regarding the benefits of helmet wearing, therefore carry on as you are" but that wouldn't have presented my point in such an impactful way.
They could obviously make a fairly reliable judgement as to which looked the most gnarly, which looked the most painful, but that is all. To understand if your helmet did make a difference you would need to have crash test dummy style sensors attached to your head to measure the forces and even then it probably wouldn't be conclusive. Ideally you would need to do both crashes many times with and without a helmet.
But like I implied, "I had a fall and it hurt" or "my friend cracked his skull open" are perfectly normal reasons to choose to wear a helmet, personal experience is a big influence on human decision making. However where this moves on to dodgy ground is when you try to present that personal experience as evidence that other people should make the same choice as you. Its not evidence other people can/should make a choice based on as its not good evidence and since they are exposed to different personal experiences you will get flame wars!
Evidence in this debate seems fairly hard to come by, and that isn't though lack of trying as there are lots of studies about. It could be that, despite the hype on both sides, serious head injuries while skiing are quite rare (serious enough to require medical attention and therefore be recorded in the stats) and therefore there isn't enough data to study.
And since head injuries are rare it probably makes sense to make a hat vs helmet decision based on factors other than likelihood of head injuries, such as how warm it keeps your head, that your goggles don't mist up in gondolas or hats looking better with sunglasses.
Oh and no, I haven't just finished a psychology degree, I've had an engineering degree long enough to forget most of it!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Because I ski special slalom
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Didn't really think I needed one, but got one as a precaution as my skiing was getting more advanced.
First week wearing it, headbutted an icy ledge and was thoroughly glad to be wearing protection.
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| Quote: |
headbutted an icy ledge
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Why on Earth would you do that?
I'm really looking forward to this winter's crop of hysterical ski helmet articles in the media: "The deceased, thought to be a 42-year-old plumber from Acton and no relation whatsoever to Natasha Richardson, was impaled on a spike after a 250 foot fall. His rescuers confirmed he wasn't wearing a helmet etc"
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
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headbutted an icy ledge
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Why on Earth would you do that?
I'm really looking forward to this winter's crop of hysterical ski helmet articles in the media: "The deceased, thought to be a 42-year-old plumber from Acton and no relation whatsoever to Natasha Richardson, was impaled on a spike after a 250 foot fall. His rescuers confirmed he wasn't wearing a helmet etc" |
Didn't actually do it deliberately, surprisingly enough. No matter how good your intentions, things can always go wrong!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
things can always go wrong!
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GeorgeJ, they can but Murphy's Law states that the very thing you don't protect is the thing that takes the hit.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
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things can always go wrong!
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GeorgeJ, they can but Murphy's Law states that the very thing you don't protect is the thing that takes the hit. |
Very true, that's why I want to protect the import bit 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Flet©h, what a load of utter tripe.
Here's an idea:
1) Get someone with a nice hammer.
2) Get someone else wearing a helmet.
3) Get you - not wearing a helmet.
Get hammer man to lightly tap you and the helmet wearer on the bonce. Repeat this procedure, getting slightly heavier with the blows each time.
First one to say ouch is .... YOU !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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beeryletcher, happens to me all the time. Skiing along normally and some nutter keeps jumping out of the trees with a hammer making directly for my head with it. Have to say it's getting really tiresome. Does anyone else get that? Apparently that's what really happened to Natasha Richardson.
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beeryletcher, Where did I say that if you hit your head with a hammer it won't hurt? In fact I don't think I have given an opinion either way about whether wearing a helmet will stop you hurting your head.
What I did do was give my view on why all this "I hit my head and it hurt/I was fine" guff was just idle speculation and nothing more. In fact I pointed out it was less useful even than that due to people's biases and the difficulty in understanding exactly what has happened and that you would have to be fairly stupid (i.e. human) to base your decision on whether to wear a helmet based on that.
Remember kids, the plural of anecdote isn't evidence.
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You know it makes sense.
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Flet©h, sorry I must be mis-understanding this then:
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that wearing a helmet is pointless as the outcome is the same with and without
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I took that to mean:
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that wearing a helmet is pointless as the outcome is the same with and without
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Logic suggest that if this is true for skiing accidents, hitting heads on trees, or the ground, THEN surely it would also be true for hammers.
Please advise - because I feel confused about all this - 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I don't understand why there is such a debate about this! Everyone knows the pros and cons of a helmet, and everyone makes the judgement based on factors such as the terrain they are skiing, their skiing style or their skiing skill.
Personally, I am young and reckless. I love to ski fast or find off-piste short-cuts that someone with my limited skiing experience probably shouldn't attempt. As a result, the risk of me crashing is relatively high and I would be stupid not to wear a helmet. It's not a bad thing to push yourself to the limits of your ability, it's actually a good way to learn and improve, while enjoying a massive adrenaline rush at the same time. I just don't want to ruin my holiday with concussion!
However, if I were a little older and a lot more experienced, I might prefer the simple joy of gliding gracefully down blues and reds on a sunny afternoon, taking in the views and laughing at the hooligans falling over in the powder. In that case, the cons of the helmet would start to outweigh the benefits. I would probably be wearing shades. It would probably become more important to hear what is coming up behind me. In conclusion, the helmet would probably stay at home.
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Poster: A snowHead
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beeryletcher, You appear to be deliberately trying to misunderstand what I wrote. Trolling on the internet sure is fun isn't it. If you quote the whole sentence it makes much more sense!
| Quote: |
| A neutral observer could quite correctly observe that this is actually evidence that wearing a helmet is pointless as the outcome is the same with and without. |
So in very simple terms, this isn't me saying "don't wear a helmet, it's pointless", its me saying don't try to persuade people to wear a helmet based on your own experiences presented as irrefutable evidence because all it is is an anecdote, and a biased one at that.
But if you want to do a controlled study of hitting yourself on the head with a hammer to prove that hammers hurt less when wearing a helmet then be my guest. It will be a lot easier than trying to prove wearing a ski helmet is a good thing but about as useful as proving bears poo in the woods.
Boiled down into one sentence: Logically it would seem that a helmet would help if you hit your head with a hard thing, but one persons experiences are of no use in deciding if this actually has any practical application while skiing in reducing your risk of head injury.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Flet©h, Trolling indeed - far from it. I simply found that of all the points raised on this thread yours seemd (to me) to be the least helpful of all. I just found the steps you made in reaching your conclusion just didn't make sense to me, and to my beer soaked brain it really sounded as though you were in the 'poo to helmets lobby', and were having a stab for the sake of it. Glad that's not the case.
As for me, I do wear a helmet, but haven't had any collisions. I do suspect it might help if I did though.
Pros though that I find, are that it is much more comfortable than a woolly hat; it does seem to provide far more optimum temp regulation to me old bonce, googles never steam up, and it once deflected a flying pint glass !
Cons so far seem that people who are too quick with chairlift bars clump me sometimes, definitely no feeling that it impedes my peripheral vision, or hearing, or how quickly I can turn my head - actually whoever came up with that one is having a giraffe  Although I guess if your helmet was way to big, you might turn your head and find yourself looking at the inside of your lid 
This I agree with:
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Logically it would seem that a helmet would help if you hit your head with a hard thing
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If this includes trees, rocks, pistes, people and pylons then that's a damn good reason for me to wear a lid.
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cran
cran
Guest
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I don't wear a helmet on my mountain bike, but I do on my road bike and when I'm skiing...
why?
who knows...?
My helmet looks like it was made in 1950 and has dents/scratches already painted on it... and I like it... is better than a beanie or a hat...
I only started skiing a few years ago and before I got a helmet I did a massive back flip into a head first pile drive on ice that hurt like fcuk and made me sick/dizzy for about 1/2 hour and I don't really want to feel like that again...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| GeorgeJ wrote: |
| I love to ski fast or find off-piste short-cuts that someone with my limited skiing experience probably shouldn't attempt. As a result, the risk of me crashing is relatively high and I would be stupid not to wear a helmet. It's not a bad thing to push yourself to the limits of your ability, it's actually a good way to learn and improve, while enjoying a massive adrenaline rush at the same time. I just don't want to ruin my holiday with concussion! |
See, that's unfortunate logic shared by many to justify their helmet use. Clearly, if you are that much out of control, a helmet is a very good idea but it ignores the fact that all the other parts of your fragile body are under threat - ruptured spleen anyone? Or how about some broken ribs and a punctured lung? They'll ruin your holiday too. Agreed, a bad knock to the head is potentially fatal or life-changing whereas most other parts are repairable but that doesn't mean it's a great idea to be putting yourself in harm's way. Saying it's a good way to learn is deeply flawed. Certainly push your limits but pick the right terrain to do it. There really is no need to hoon about waiting for the inevitable self-inflicted smack on the head. Just takes takes some precautionary measures that you should be thinking about anyway to protect the unprotected parts of your body.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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body armour, knee pads, elbow pads.. spine guard, wrist supports, knee supports, neck brace, gum shield.. tape up all your fingers as well just in case.. cant be to careful you know.. oh sh.t i forgot the helmet
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because I drink too much alcohol
because if I loose any unrelated brain cells ie hitting my head, I might not remember where I put my drink down.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I seem to remember once reading that in order to prevent brain damage in a 30mph impact with a tree, a ski helmet would need to be 80cm thick... (in Ski and Board?)
Have long since come to the conclusion that helmets usually don't prevent death, but probably do reduce the severity of whatever head injury you obtain. Whether that reduction is enough to really make a difference would depend on the multitude of factors involved in any fall.
I got knocked unconscious when wiped out by a pi55ed up Russian a few years ago while not wearing one but still didn't buy one. Watched all my colleagues go and buy helmets after they saw what happened to me though! I decided I didn't need one on the 'lightning doesn't strike twice' basis. Fiinally succumbed a couple of years afterwards when a surgeon told me if the impact on my head had been an inch lower I'd be dead (the scar is just above the temple). Didn't ask whether a helmet would have made a difference but I guess it may have done.
Wearing one now makes no difference to the way I ski because I've always been more concerned about dislocating my shoulders in a fall than any other injury and therefore try to ski within my limits. I go out occasionally in spring without it for old time's sake and feel oddly exposed, on piste anyway. I guess one of those days is when the lightning will come back
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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gravystuffing, interesting but I don't believe it would help a chronically damaged joint as it's not supporting/restricting the rotation of the joint. IME most skiing dislocations are caused by falling onto an outstretched, rotated, straight arm - the kind of fall that breaks wrists for a lot of people but if your wrists are stronger than your shoulder you get a dislocation instead. All shoulder supports (except one) that I've ever seen are really nothing more than muscle warmers. The exception is the Sully although I haven't tried one:
http://www.supportsusa.com/arm/shoulder2/sully-shoulder.htm
I like benefits 3 & 4 though!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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This is what I figured out:
- helmet will not prevent most injury
- helmet will make injury less severe
- helmet could make people ski more reckless wearing one
- helmet is very comfortable if you got a good sized air-vent one. (except when it is +20 degrees)
- some helmets make you hear less - but then, also mp3 players will...
I do understand what Fletch means, and people should understand that wearing a helmet will not help against all evil. But having read and heard (and felt) lots of anecdotes I think a helmet is very useful, it will prevent you from serious head injuries/might even be a life saver in most cases, and it just seems not very logical not to wear one. It is like wearing seatbelts in cars. Everybody knows a story about someone got saved by not wearing one (my dad found once his steering wheel pinched into the chair he sat in after a crash, and by not wearing a seatbelt he just flew somewhere else...) but in general seatbelts save life and it is just not very logical not to wear it.
An extra for small kids is: they usually do not even fall on their heads, but there are enough reasons to wear one in the lift because my kids got smacked in the head already so many times by people and especially other kids carrying ski's that it has been worth it!
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You know it makes sense.
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abc, "helmet will not prevent most injury" clearly refers to all injuries of which head injuries are a very small proportion.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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boredsurfin, no, it's because those who hit their heads can't remember where it hurts. I don't know the answer, but I do wish I'd bought into a helmet factory maybe 5-10 years ago.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bode Swiller, Maybe now is the time to buy the full body armour factory
After all it's ne next logical step shirley.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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boredsurfin, simulators, that's the new thing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This thread may suggest some of the California skiers/boarders wear the helmet because their parents exercised the decision for their children.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I wear a helmet because....
Sticks and stones can break my bones, and a bang on the head can scramble the grey stuff.
If someone like Chemmy thinks it's a good idea to wear a helmet I won't disagree, maybe someone thinks they should tell Chemmy she's wrong?
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My daughter has worn a helmet since she started skiing and yes I told her so. I also feel obliged to set an example by wearing one too (although that's not the only reason).
I wish I'd worn mine a couple of weeks ago after returning home after a rather long session at the Peterborough Beer Festival
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I wear a helmet mainly Because.............
a) I am practically bald and have my hair so short that I find EVERY hat I've ever had is itchy when its warm.
b) My haircut provides zero sun protection and its just too risky relying on the Piz Buin all day.
c) With no hair its gonna be too cold at some time in the day
d) Growing what hair I have longer and trying to keep a Bobby Charlton in place, even cruising on a blue this is not going to work.
e) Loads of sunscreen on sunny days and putting the hood up in the shade. Ive never had a ski jacket where the hood actually stays up when skiing.
f) I dont fancy novelty hats so I dont know if they too are itchy
Maybe a visit to the same barber as Wayne Rooney could work but I reckon it will be a lot more expensive than a helmet, even if bought in a resort
This is the best thread I've read since Ive been on snowheads
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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timbarrett, welcome! It's not all about technique y'know?
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FAQ
