Raceplate, I accessed the BASI system via SSS ASSI so I avoided the Foundation Course on snow, so in effect the first time I went on any type of BASI course was my level 2. A BASI Trainer ran my SSS ASSI and recommended me to go for the L2, I passed also.
Even I can tell if someone is at or near the L2 standard by looking at at them skiing in a fridge. A Trainer has far more skill.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Spyderman wrote:
Raceplate Even I can tell if someone is at or near the L2 standard by looking at at them skiing in a fridge. A Trainer has far more skill.
Out of interest, what are the tell-tale signs? I can understand that it may be largely instinctual, but is there anything you look for? (have any video clips?)
ALQ, I look first at what the skis are doing, if they're working well all is good, if not look towards what is happening for the skis not to be working properly.
Observation skills develop with time and knowledge.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Raceplate L1 only qualifies you to teach in a fridge/dry slope. Given that these facilities are a lot more accessible in the UK than the big mountains is it not unreasonable to have such a qualification? How much experience & ability do you need to teach someone to ski the basics?
Even if you failed L2 would you not benefit from a weeks worth of lessons with a well qualified instructor?
ALQ, I'm not an instructor but even I can spot skiers who'll be good in the real world and those who might struggle with certain aspects from seeing them in a fridge. I'd usually characterise it as "flow" or "looking natural" when transitioning between scraped and mounded snow. Some people look good at particular drills or a standard type of turn but a bit stiff and "overly coached".
Same on mountains - you can usually see from any chairlift plenty of "blue run heroes" who I'm sure their mates think are brilliant skiers but who only really look impressive because its their comfort zone,
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
OK then, this is my daughter skiing at L2A a couple of months ago. All steepish red runs, the 3rd run is pretty cut up. Plan is for her to do her L1 next summer (she's not 16 until next year) and L2 the next year (unless she changes her mind or gets bored). Due to GCSEs she'll only get about 9 days skiing in before next summer, although that will be with easiski and she always improves after a week with her. What's everyone's views (she does need a wider stance and she's working on that)?
Colin B, She's clearly well balanced and entirely comfortable, looks pretty effortless. I'd like to have seen her seeing some of the crap skier's right at the beginning to see how she handled it. I'd guess she'd be at or above BASI 1 level in a year's time. Would definitely like to see more playing with turn shapes and stance (width, high or low). May just be a bit picky but a straighter less rounded back and hips further forward i.e. a bit more attack. The little jump is indicative of pretty solid balance/neutral stance though.
Last edited by After all it is free on Sat 25-06-11 16:18; edited 1 time in total
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Colin B, how does she handle short turns, alot of the time in the fridge is spent doing short radius and skidded turns due to the width and lenth of a snowdome.
I think that by next summer and practice she will be able to pass, I'm sure there will be people who will say that she does not ski like a seasoned instructor but there lies the issues that seems to be the point of a lot of arguements, its a level 1 and its the start; there are limitations to what you can then deliver with the qualification, she'd be able to deliver lessons to beginners in a snowdome and dry slope.
It would be interesting having somebodies views who has done the level 1 on the mountains rather than a fridge in the uk.
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She handles short turns really well, off piste is no problem and she's pretty good on moguls too. She actually developed a more rounded back on our last trip, it must have been something easiski was working on, she was very upright before due to years of ballet training.
She's probably going to do her L1 in the mountains at Hintertux. None of the Snowdomes is within daily travelling distance really so I'd rather spend a week in the Austrian mountains than in Hemel I'll do some walking, a bit of skiing etc and we'll tag a week on the beach somewhere after it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Curtains, Raceplate.. Have you attended a BASI Level 1 course in any of the snowdomes?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Colin B, I think she needs a bit more work to get to L1 standard. Key things for me would be to stand more centred on her skis as she is in the backseat a lot, open up her stance to allow her to better balance on her outside ski, and for her longs turns use the top of the turn a bit more by removing the pivoted entry.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Colin B, I'm with rob@rar, in that she needs a bit more work for L1. More centred by developing ankle flex, together with some work on flexion & extension.
If she's 15 now, gives her another year to get to L1 entry standard and 3 years to L2.
There aren't any horror stories in her skiing, so just a bit more work and she'll be there.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Thanks all for the feedback. It's another year yet so some food for thought for her and she'll have 9 days skiing and some lessons with easiski next Easter. There's a BASI trainer in L2A also, I might try to book for a session then too. L2 the next year was a bit aspirational tbh.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Colin B, 18 before you can do L2
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Raceplate wrote:
rob@rar, Yes, based on his piste (fridge) skiiing. In my experience, just about everyone that fails BASI L2 fails on their off piste/bumps/variable terrain skiing, none of which can possibly be assessed in a fridge L1 week.
In my more limited experience (i.e. one L2 course in 2010), 3 people failed the course and out of those 3, all of them failed on carving.
Raceplate wrote:
It's in the BASI trainer's interest to 'big up' their chances of passing L2. They get paid for holding the original course and the re-assessment when the pupil fails. And a specialist training course prior to their re-assessment
totally agree
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
smithski wrote:
Raceplate wrote:
It's in the BASI trainer's interest to 'big up' their chances of passing L2. They get paid for holding the original course and the re-assessment when the pupil fails. And a specialist training course prior to their re-assessment
totally agree
That's a very cynical view. You're inferring that BASI Trainers are dishonest and manipulate the pass level in order to generate business. What evidence do you have to support that view?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Spyderman wrote:
smithski wrote:
Raceplate wrote:
It's in the BASI trainer's interest to 'big up' their chances of passing L2. They get paid for holding the original course and the re-assessment when the pupil fails. And a specialist training course prior to their re-assessment
totally agree
That's a very cynical view. You're inferring that BASI Trainers are dishonest and manipulate the pass level in order to generate business. What evidence do you have to support that view?
You used the word dishonest, not me nor Raceplate. I am not suggesting any dishonesty and I do not belive Raceplate intended that either, although feel free to correct me Raceplate if you did.
As in any walk of life it's a direct a sales pitch to a captive market. Strike while the irons hot. Evidence, if you wish: when I passed my L1 I was given by the "BASI" trainer a leaflet offering courses that could help me get ready for my L2 - these courses were nothing to do with BASI, but run by the ski school for whom the trainer worked for. Also just look at the number of adverts for pre course training in BASI news. It's big business, not cynical at all, just an observation.
I went to have a chat with someone at the BASI stand at the ski show in October. The trainer I spoke to was more interested in pushing his own company's gap course than giving any general information.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
There's quite a big step from pushing independent training courses to deliberately failing a candidate in order to generate more business out of them, which seems to the suggestion here.
In the BASI courses I've done I've occasionally been surprised at the outcome for some of the candidates. In almost every case I've been surprised that they have passed rather than they have failed, so I considered the Trainer overly lenient rather than harsh in their judgement. I can only recall one case where a fellow candidate was failed when I thought they might pass, and that must have been a very marginal call.
There's quite a big step from pushing independent training courses to deliberately failing a candidate in order to generate more business out of them, which seems to the suggestion here.
Where did that come from, who's mentioned anything about deliberatekly failing ?
rob@rar wrote:
In the BASI courses I've done I've occasionally been surprised at the outcome for some of the candidates. In almost every case I've been surprised that they have passed rather than they have failed, so I considered the Trainer overly lenient rather than harsh in their judgement. I can only recall one case where a fellow candidate was failed when I thought they might pass, and that must have been a very marginal call.
Only done 2 courses, but agree with what you say here.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
smithski wrote:
Spyderman wrote:
smithski wrote:
Raceplate wrote:
It's in the BASI trainer's interest to 'big up' their chances of passing L2. They get paid for holding the original course and the re-assessment when the pupil fails. And a specialist training course prior to their re-assessment
totally agree
That's a very cynical view. You're inferring that BASI Trainers are dishonest and manipulate the pass level in order to generate business. What evidence do you have to support that view?
You used the word dishonest, not me nor Raceplate. I am not suggesting any dishonesty and I do not belive Raceplate intended that either, although feel free to correct me Raceplate if you did.
Raceplate stated that it was in the Trainer's interest to 'big up' their chances in order to generate business, to which you agreed. That is dishonest of the Trainer to do that, therefore you are agreeing with someone who is suggesting dishonesty.
I agree with rob@rar in that if anything Trainers was erred on the side of passing people that were very close rather than failing them.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 27-06-11 14:12; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
smithski wrote:
Where did that come from, who's mentioned anything about deliberatekly failing ?
Quote:
It's all part of the great BASI money/dream making machine
...
you have to expect BASI trainers to 'big up' your chances of passing L2; it's their job.
...
They get paid for holding the original course and the re-assessment when the pupil fails.
Apologies if I'm misreading these statements but there seems to be an underlying theme that BASI Trainers don't give honest feedback which puts candidates into a position where they are more likely to fail, and the reason for doing this is it increases the money 'made' by BASI and leads to more employment opportunities for Trainers. If I've mis-read these statements I offer my apologies and I would be delighted to see a refutation.
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Trainers are only human, and in my experience most (all?) don't enjoy failing people at all. Individuals I've spoken with also sometimes see it as a personal failure if they have a low pass rate - the course is continuous assessment, and designed so you can improve during the course. But they also have a job to do and a standard to uphold. I think it's pretty cycnical to infer trainers are tying to drum up business. Most ISTDs aren't short of work.
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beanie1 wrote:
Trainers are only human, and in my experience most (all?) don't enjoy failing people at all. Individuals I've spoken with also sometimes see it as a personal failure if they have a low pass rate - the course is continuous assessment, and designed so you can improve during the course. But they also have a job to do and a standard to uphold. I think it's pretty cycnical to infer trainers are tying to drum up business. Most ISTDs aren't short of work.
Whe else are they issusing their own (not BASI's) course prospectus/promotional material during the end of course de-briefing session? Maybe BASI could take a stance on this.
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Spyderman wrote:
Raceplate stated that it was in the Trainer's interest to 'big up' their chances in order to generate business, to which you agreed. That is dishonest of the Trainer to do that, therefore you are agreeing with someone who is suggesting dishonesty.
There is a big difference between "bigging up" and being dishonest.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
smithski, Pass or Fail in a BASI course is based solely on the Trainer's opinion as to if a Trainee has or has not met the pass standard. Bigging up someone's chances to generate business is dishonest, it's a thousand pounds a week of someone's money. I don't see a difference.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
smithski wrote:
Whe else are they issusing their own (not BASI's) course prospectus/promotional material during the end of course de-briefing session? Maybe BASI could take a stance on this.
Isn't it a good idea to let candidates know about training opportunities, especially if they have not made the standard and require more training before they resit? I don't have a problem with Trainers telling candidates about training opportunities they offer, especially as BASI doesn't offer training courses of its own (although I think that might be changing?). Last week I listened to a Trainer offering advice to a successful L1 candidate who was wondering about the steps before L2. The Trainer mentioned his own courses and listed a bunch of other Trainers who he said would offer good training. That's pretty similar to my experience where Trainers mention their own ski schools as well as a few others.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Spyderman, I'm not saying the bigging up is in any way part of the pass/fail decision making. Whether the student passes or fails, there will be an element of bigging up to get them to retake the course or to move to the next level.
If I've misunderstood what is meant by bigging up then lets go back a couple of hours. I do not see it as "telling the student something that isn't true" which is how I feel you view it, rather encouraging/cadjoling them into doing non-BASI pre-course courses, of which the trainer may or may not benfit from.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 27-06-11 14:36; edited 2 times in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar wrote:
smithski wrote:
Where did that come from, who's mentioned anything about deliberatekly failing ?
Quote:
It's all part of the great BASI money/dream making machine
...
you have to expect BASI trainers to 'big up' your chances of passing L2; it's their job.
...
They get paid for holding the original course and the re-assessment when the pupil fails.
Apologies if I'm misreading these statements but there seems to be an underlying theme that BASI Trainers don't give honest feedback which puts candidates into a position where they are more likely to fail, and the reason for doing this is it increases the money 'made' by BASI and leads to more employment opportunities for Trainers. If I've mis-read these statements I offer my apologies and I would be delighted to see a refutation.
I would not for one minute think anyone would fail a student deliberately, for any reason
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
smithski wrote:
... I do not see it as "telling the student something that isn't true" which is how I feel you view it, rather encouraging/cadjoling them into doing non-BASI pre-course courses, of which the trainer may or may not benfit from.
Have you seen a Trainer encouraging or cajoling a candidate into undertaking training which you think the candidate did not require?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
smithski wrote:
... I do not see it as "telling the student something that isn't true" which is how I feel you view it, rather encouraging/cadjoling them into doing non-BASI pre-course courses, of which the trainer may or may not benfit from.
Have you seen a Trainer encouraging or cajoling a candidate into undertaking training which you think the candidate did not require?
Yes.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Interesting discussion!
re Trainers 'bigging up' chances of passing L2 to get people onto a course there really isn't much point (talking BASI courses here) from a 'personal business' point of view as the chances of the same trainer taking the same candidate for a L2 (and then resit) are slim (and there really are quite a few trainers & only so many courses.
As for trainers pushing their own L2 prep training courses or similar I do find this a bit off... but then I am not a fan of the current 'sit one exam then start attending training courses to pass the next exam' culture (possibly because my business model isn't built on delivering these courses ) - whatever happened to getting a qualification & then going out & getting experience teaching & doing lots of skiing with your colleagues? - Interski was awesome for this when I worked there - really motivated bunch of guys & gals all getting out after work & hammering bumps etc etc. Similarly staff training in NZ & USA was excellent (& free!!)..
anyway rant over.
If trainers are pushing their own product exclusively perhaps this is something that does need to be raised with the 'grown-ups'...
I have never seen a Trainer giving advice which I considered dishonest, and for which the reason for the dishonesty was to encourage/cajole the candidate to spend money on unnecessary training.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
smithski wrote:
Spyderman, I'm not saying the bigging up is in any way part of the pass/fail decision making. Whether the student passes or fails, there will be an element of bigging up to get them to retake the course or to move to the next level.
If I've misunderstood what is meant by bigging up then lets go back a couple of hours. I do not see it as "telling the student something that isn't true" which is how I feel you view it, rather encouraging/cadjoling them into doing non-BASI pre-course courses, of which the trainer may or may not benfit from.
That may well be your view now, but it's not what you said you agreed with. You agreed with a statement that suggested that a BASI Trainer deliberately encouraged someone going for a course knowing that they were likely to fail, in order to secure a further booking for a BASI course or one of their own courses, once they'd failed.
I have never seen a Trainer giving advice which I considered dishonest, and for which the reason for the dishonesty was to encourage/cajole the candidate to spend money on unnecessary training.
I'd rather not say too much here, but I would say that describing it as 'dishonest' is way too harsh, more like an opportunistic sales pitch, whihc is why I made a point of distancing myself from the 'dishonest' reference.
BASI trainers are held in high regard and for many sitting their first course they will take what is said as gospel. If a student is told they need to do "this course" and "that course" to progress, then they are very likley to follow that advice and do them, irrespective of whether the trainier benefits directly or not.
IMV BASI trainers should be independant and should be put in a situation where they could suggest any particular privately run course, be it from a company they are involved with or not.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
smithski, my online dictionary defines opportunistic as "exploiting chances offered by immediate circumstances without reference to a general plan or moral principle". To me that's not a million miles from dishonest.
You seem to be suggesting that Trainers should be prohibited from offering specific advice about training opportunities that they offer, even if their professional judgement is that the candidate requires further training before they can progress to the next course/qualification. That just seems barmy to me. I think it's important for people who are going through the BASI system to take responsibility for their training requirements, and that should include looking widely to see what is available.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Spyderman wrote:
smithski wrote:
Spyderman, I'm not saying the bigging up is in any way part of the pass/fail decision making. Whether the student passes or fails, there will be an element of bigging up to get them to retake the course or to move to the next level.
If I've misunderstood what is meant by bigging up then lets go back a couple of hours. I do not see it as "telling the student something that isn't true" which is how I feel you view it, rather encouraging/cadjoling them into doing non-BASI pre-course courses, of which the trainer may or may not benfit from.
That may well be your view now, but it's not what you said you agreed with. You agreed with a statement that suggested that a BASI Trainer deliberately encouraged someone going for a course knowing that they were likely to fail, in order to secure a further booking for a BASI course or one of their own courses, once they'd failed.
you mean this quote:
Quote:
It's in the BASI trainer's interest to 'big up' their chances of passing L2. They get paid for holding the original course and the re-assessment when the pupil fails. And a specialist training course prior to their re-assessment
.
Sorry, but I do not see anything here suggesting that a trainer would deliberately encourage someone going for a course knowing that they were likely to fail. Just that when they fail (just as in when they pass) there may be some benefit
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smithski wrote:
you mean this quote:
Quote:
It's in the BASI trainer's interest to 'big up' their chances of passing L2. They get paid for holding the original course and the re-assessment when the pupil fails. And a specialist training course prior to their re-assessment
.
Sorry, but I do not see anything here suggesting that a trainer would deliberately encourage someone going for a course knowing that they were likely to fail. Just that when they fail (just as in when they pass) there may be some benefit
Yes I did mean that quote and the suggestion is blatant that the Trainer is suggesting someone take a course knowing failure to be likely in order to generate business. Maybe I'm alone in reading that quote that way, but I don't think so.
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To be fair, I should imagine it's quite difficult for a Trainer to say how much extra training (e.g. in weeks) is needed before someone goes for their L2 after L1 unless they are very close to it When I say that, I'm not doubting the Trainer's ability but surely it must be difficult to put a number on it if someone passes L1 but is quite a way off from L2 standard. It could take them a matter of weeks to get to the required level, or take ages. That would depend on the person because say two guys pass L1 and are about the same level when they passed, one guy might go out after L1 and practise whatever it is they need to work on and be ready for L2 in no time at all and the other might take 3 times as long despite practising and them being the same level as the first guy when they passed the L1 Some things they just can't predict but they will probably be about right the majority of the time.
Based on that, surely the most sensible course of action after L1 is to go away and practise whatever it is needs work, then when you think or feel you are ready for L2 next time you are away in a resort with a British ski school get a Trainer from one of the ski schools to spend an hour or two with you and check you are at the right level before you then go and spend £2k on the L2 course (by time you've paid lift pass and accommodation for 2 weeks I mean).
For those on here that have recently gone on a BASI course (L2 or L3) did you get a Trainer to have a look beforehand before you went on the course as that seems like a good idea to me?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I'll do some walking, a bit of skiing etc and we'll tag a week on the beach somewhere after it.
When I say that, I'm not doubting the Trainer's ability but surely it must be difficult to put a number on it if someone passes L1 but is quite a way off from L2 standard. It could take them a matter of weeks to get to the required level, or take ages. That would depend on the person because say two guys pass L1 and are about the same level when they passed, one guy might go out after L1 and practise whatever it is they need to work on and be ready for L2 in no time at all and the other might take 3 times as long despite practising and them being the same level as the first guy when they passed the L1 