 Poster: A snowHead
|
No not the alternative London street artist but the ski resort in Bulgaria?
At one time it was being ramped on Snowheads by the pimps but I've not heard anything for ages. Someone in the pub was talking about it the other day and said it had been a total and utter disaster for "investors" aka "mugs" who had been a*** **** by the developers and locals. Shoddy buildings, hard to rent which had lost over 50% of their initial ticket price and no snow.
Anyone care to give more details, or more accurate details?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
they're all too embarassed to come back on here and admit they were wrong all along, I guess....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
davidof, I was one of those that bought. Am I regretting it?
Yes
As an investment I have lost money no doubt. 50k is now about 35k.
It is hard to rent unless I go really cheap to compete with the unlucky ones who need to rent to pay the morgage they took out to buy. I am not prepared to do this because of the rare and tare that the apartment would get makes no sence.
The skiing is limited and I only do trips of 3-6 days. (but I have now also nipped over to Borovets for a day to try something new)
The resort still has plenty of work going on with its infrastructure. They really do need to finish it off to make it better on the eye
No
We are fortunate to have bought a very well finished apartment.
I have had 5 ski trips since completing (all with great snow conditions)
Investement in new runs is happening now.
The cost to get there is comparable with the Alps, but it is so much cheaper once you get there. ( I do Tignes once a year and then once or twice a year to Bansko)
The progress with the infrasture ( see point above) has moved on loads and I can see the potential and signs that they are getting it right.
I love the Bulgarian food in the Mehanas in the old town.
Guvnor, I am not ebarassed at all mate. I am happy with my investment and the great holidays I have had so far. It is not perfect and there is still work to do, but improvements are happening every time I go back.
I admit that I was a bit nieve (sp) when i bought and did not do anywhere near enough research. But unlike some, we have a well finished apartment in a good location. There are others out there that have lost money on apartments that have never been built. If I had my time again, I would have waited 2-3 years and then bought after the prices fell. Now is a great time to buy. For 50k you can get a 2 bedroom apartment in a facility with pool, spa, gym etc and right next to the gondola. Correct me if I am wrong, but you cant get that in many other places.
Last season the snow was poor (like everywhere else), but nearly all the mountain is covered with cannons, so when we skied in March we had perfect conditions. The government has just granted the ski resort to extentd it KM's. Previously the resort was allowed to encroach 3% into the national park, it now has been granted to extend that to 12%.
I am not saying Bansko is the best resort at all. Others will not like it. But IMHO I do. My friends who I have taken with me do. I am not preaching to SH's just sharing my opinion/experience. It does not fit the bill for everyone, but it does for some.
Cheers
Smag
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 2-06-11 12:55; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
smagsmith, great post
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
smagsmith, nice one. It's nice to see you can see where you went wrong, and are prepared to share that to help others. Glad it's working out for you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
AIUI lots of people in Ireland got taken big time on it. I wouldn't be surprised if lots of people haven't just walked away from their investments. Case study in how property madness surpassed all logic pre 2008 crash: Hard to get to, resort facilities not particularly compelling, dodgy local law but a pad in a ski resort?
That said as above if it suffices for personal use I'm sure the fun factor surpasses financial cost, sometimes ownership and commitment represents "real" value for people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
smagsmith, good post!
At the time of us buying in Austria (2006) there was so much of Bansko investment opportunities floating about - some looked like very good deals too. The main thing that stopped me looking into it all further was the wife's pretty plain statement... I want to move to Austria!
I get it all apart from this bit..
| Quote: |
| Last season the snow was poor (like everywhere else), |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
smagsmith, good on you for having a crack at it... lots wouldnt have had the b**ls.
are capital values recovering or is it still tanking? could you sell if you wanted to?
good that you have a balanced view on it but it has gotta sting a bit having 5 trips and being down 15K.. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
smagsmith, great post.
I think in 5 or 10 years this post should have a revisit, I think things will be different then
Even @ 2 trips per year over 10 years without renting and destroying the property I think you will do ok from it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I would think that properties in ski resorts in France as an example have dropped too over that time. Whether it would be 30% though I don't know. When I looked in LDA semi seriously last October there were a few studios at 50K euros (some minute ones even cheaper) and some had been on the market for some time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| flangesax wrote: |
smagsmith,
I get it all apart from this bit..
| Quote: |
| Last season the snow was poor (like everywhere else), |
|
Did not most places struggle last season? As a fan of Tignes, I watched the reports throughout the season and it looked like that region had a tough time of it in terms of fresh snow. Yesterday was a bit different though.
Maybe some places did alright, but I thought the majority of Europe had a less than average season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| smagsmith wrote: |
davidof, I was one of those that bought. Am I regretting it?
|
Yes, great post, exactly the kind of information I was after.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think you'll find that Banksy is from Bristol not London (there is actually life outside of London).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I went to Bansko on an inspection trip in 2007 with MRI . Between booking the trip and actually going on it I did some research beyond the glossy brochure, so I was well on my gaurd.
At the welcome meeting the head rep was spouting so much Bull it was incredible, but what was more incredible was the amount of mug punters taking it all in. I remember him saying that when the resort was finished their would be in excess of 40,000 tourist beds  , so I asked the question how can this possibly work with one uplift of 2,400 per hour. Others at the meeting did not understand my question and simply accepted without reserve everything they were being told. After a 3 day trip their were people going home having put deposit's down on 3 properties, people who had no idea about ski resort's, they were investor's and not very smart ones at that.
Anyway last year I went back in March, it was a holiday with friends of ours who had never skied before and it was my suggestion that we try it because they were newbies and didn't need a big area and the cost of instruction was cheap. The holiday cost less than £400 in a really smart large 2 bed apartment in a spa complex and this included lift passes. I did some research and found a private ski school called method and booked my friends into group lessons, the tuition was fantastic, English instructors and far better than I can ever remember having myself. My wife had a 2 hour private lesson which cost about £30 and whatever they did, something clicked anmd to some extent she has overcome her fear of steep slopes.
The ski area, it was OK and was certainly more than my friends needed on their first ever week. But 4 years ago it was being touted as the next Verbier  , it is never going to be anything more than what it is. But what it is, is OK.
Now Eating out, the first night we had a dreadful meal, the second night we were reccomended this Mehana about 150 yards past the Lions pub on the right, not the cheapest of places by Bulgarian standards, but it was excellent. I would dread to think how much the bill would have been if we were in France, but it was about £70 for 4 of us and that includes 2-3 Litre caraffes of wine, we made this our regular, going every night. On the mountain everything is owned by the lift company and the prices are extortinate considering you are in Bulgaria, but we found this very traditional Mehana tucked away on the left hand side of the ski road towards the end. It was great normally I would be itching to get moving again, but because I had skied everything I was happy to sit there for a couple of hours soaking up the rays drinking cold beer at just over £1 a bottle.
So to summarize,
Would I go back: No but I had a great time, the skiing is limited if you are used to large resorts.
Should you go: If you are a ski snob definitely not, if like my friends you are beginners or need tuition (and who doesn't) then IMHO you will not get better tuition anywhere for the price than that offered by the guys at Method ski school.
Do I regret not buying a place back in 2007: Very easy to answer, NO. You can go on an all in package for not much more than the cost of flights, transfer and lift pass. Even if Bansko ticked all the boxes for me, what would be the point.
The thing that narks me: People who slag the place off who have never been there  why.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Kel wrote: |
| The thing that narks me: People who slag the place off who have never been there why. |
or that it doesn't suit or appeal to them
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| czl wrote: |
| Kel wrote: |
| The thing that narks me: People who slag the place off who have never been there why. |
or that it doesn't suit or appeal to them |
That's fine, don't go. Just don't slag it off if you have never been yourself.
I've never been to Disneyland, doesn't appeal to me, but I wouldn't slag it off, or the people who holiday there for that matter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Kel wrote: |
| czl wrote: |
| Kel wrote: |
| The thing that narks me: People who slag the place off who have never been there why. |
or that it doesn't suit or appeal to them |
That's fine, don't go. Just don't slag it off if you have never been yourself.
I've never been to Disneyland, doesn't appeal to me, but I wouldn't slag it off, or the people who holiday there for that matter. |
I was agreeing with the post - just adding that if they went and it didn't suit them. For instance they found the skiing limited... fine report back saying that it was limited and used to more etc..... but don't go saying its rubbish skiing don't go(slag off) because it suits a wide range of skiers other than them and could put off a person or group from having a better time there than say spend alot in a place where beginner skiing is limited.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
czl,
OK get you now. Bit like me, I went and tbh it was what I expected, it is what is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Someone once said to me that...
If you want to go skiing for a holiday, then go to the big Alp resorts or the North America (This is what I do when I go to Tignes)
If you want to go skiing for a holiday, then try Bansko.
Bansko does not offer the biggest and best pistes, but the old town is great and so are the prices. We go with friends and look forward to the great food and wine in th evening as much as the skiing in the day. An it does not break the bank. As mentioned above, a meal for 4 and uggins of wine for £65 all in. When I compare that to £25 for a burger and chips and a glass of water in Val D'isere, there is only one winner.
But 300k of piste in Tignes and 75km in Bansko, there is only one winner there.
That is why I do both 
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 2-06-11 22:36; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| smagsmith wrote: |
Someone once said to be that...
If you want to go skiing for a holiday, then go to the big Alp resorts or the North America (This is what I do when I go to Tignes)
If you want to go skiing for a holiday, then try Bansko.
Bansko does not offer the biggest and best pistes, but the old town is great and so are the prices. We go with friends and look forward to the great food and wine in th evening as much as the skiing in the day. An it does not break the bank. As mentioned above, a meal for 4 and uggins of wine for £65 all in. When I compare that to £25 for a burger and chips and a glass of water in Val D'isere, there is only one winner.
But 300k of piste in Tignes and 75km in Bansko, there is only one winner there.
That is why I do both |
another good post...
the fact that probably 80% going to tignes/val will only hit 75km of piste says alot too
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| czl wrote: |
the fact that probably 80% going to tignes/val will only hit 75km of piste says alot too |
If you want to go skiing you only need 50km or so of pistes of varying grades (my local resort has 8km of steep pistes which is great if you want to ski). If you want to go schlepping around the mountains on skis, visiting different eateries, which is what most Brits intermediates want, then you need 250km+ of pistes for a week's holiday.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think the slagging probably derives from the ridiculous spam and pro Bansko claims that did appear many moons ago. I speak as a slagger when one such claim described it as the "new Val D'Isere".
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
smagsmith, Nice post. I agree with most of what you've written. It's nice that there are some positive things written about Bulgaria when a lot just seems to be less well informed drivel.
I looked at Bansko for a property investment back in 2003 when I was touring Bulgaria looking for opportunities but didn't find anything I was interested in. It did seem even back then that there was too much development taking place. I was chasing the fabled 25% increases that people had been achieving in the previous few years and it just felt that there would be too much competition to realise anything in the short term. I'd already bought an off plan property in Pamporovo the year before, and was more interested in Borovets and Sofia. I did buy a further apartment in Borovets and also some land and a fixer Upper just outside Borovets.
One line of comment that most locals made was about their amazement that (mostly) Brits / Irish were spending so much money on apartments when you could buy a house for a simillar amount to the deposit. Ok so the houses are'nt all to the same standard as you might find in the UK but they are (mostly) habitable and wouldn't cost too much to fix up. The houses often come with a big chunk of land attached. It certainly made me think and question what I was doing, when back home a large % of property speculators / investors were all looking to find a house they could fix up and sell on. I still wonder why I and others got caught up in the apartment bubble when there were potentially better opportunities.
So did I make any money.......... yes and no. I sold both apartments in 2008. The one in Pamporovo I sold for just a little less than I'd paid in Euros (it was already 2 years behind schedule and there were questions about it actually being completed). The one in Borovets for a fraction more than I'd paid in Euros. At the time the prices were all falling and more off plan properties were being promoted. I was lucky to find a buyer. The only reason I made any profit was down to the exchange rate, with the Euro having gained significantly from the time I'd originally bought them. So I was lucky.
I kept the land and the house. I've been back to make sure that they're still there and pay my insurance to the local police. I'd like to think that I will someday do something with both the house and the land. There are some beautiful little villages in the hills around the ski resorts and the scenery is breathtaking. A taxi to a resort and back is about 20eu (upto 25km), less if you strike a weekly deal. I'd recommend this as an option to anyone still thinking of buying a ski property in Bulgaria.
If you can make an effort with the locals then Bulgaria can be a great place. Despite the poverty there is little resentment to cash flash foreigners. Prices are fairly cheap and value can be found in most resorts. Yes someplaces are just nasty, but on the whole they're welcoming. Food is generally good, but always lukewarm. They dont eat cold / hot food always warm food ! Beer is very good as are the wines. Culture can be found allover the hills not just Sofia. I'm talking about places like the Rila Monastery and the founding school of Iconography along with many others. You can hire a taxi for a day to show you some of the sights for approx 40eu. Many taxi drivers are better tour guides than the official guides and it'll always be eventful. They even do 5*, to cater for the wealthy Russians, and at the prices they charge you do get value for money. Oh yeah, you can do skiing as well if thats your thing.
Back to the OP. If you were looking for annual returns then, as Smagsmith pointed out, with so much competition and with high management costs they're not too good and for some they wont even cover the mortgage. In the long run, as with other Bulgarian resorts, once all of the resort development plans are implemented this should change. As for flipping the property and making a return then you'd also need to wait a few years or hope for an improvement in the exchange rates. Much like BTL / property speculation in many parts of the UK.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
I went to Bansko in March and loved it. Not a huge ski area but it was good. Might go back again next year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| fatbob wrote: |
| described it as the "new Val D'Isere". |
And that is the problem. 5 years ago the developers were making claims that would simply never happen.
Just accept it for what it is. It is a cheerfull small resort that does not cost an arm and a leg when you are there. I am an intermediate skier and Bansko has enough to keep me happy for a week. Any long and I may get bored, but that is when I take a day trip to Borovets to break it up.
There are still people there making claims about the future of Bansko. I just take it with a pinch of salt. But every time I go I see improvements. The ski area does need expanding to balance out the expansion in the town. That may or may not happen soon, but I am confident that it will happen in the next 5 years. By how much I have no idea. I would be more than happy if it doubled the piste and left it at that. My concern then would be the knock on effect of kick starting another property boom again and ending Bansko up in the position it is now in.
Time will tell, both on a financial and holiday experience angle for me. Will I make a profit? Will I ever want to sell? Will I get bored of the 75km?
In the mean time I enjoy our family and friends trips. Ask me again in 10 years 
cheers
Smag
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
It all depends on when you bought The bubble on Bulgarian ski property burst years and years before people stopped buying at ever more inflated prices and since the Brits kept eating it up they kept building. It sounds like the situation is similar in Brovovets where owners are selling left and right and were lucky to see more than 2 or 3 weeks let this season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
"The new Val D'Isere" was a phrase originally coined in a Daily Mail or MOS article (it might be on the Internet somewhere still). It's been suggested on here before that the writer is someone who has invested in a few properties in Bansko. It's a funny old world.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
smagsmith,
| Quote: |
Time will tell, both on a financial and holiday experience angle for me. Will I make a profit? Will I ever want to sell? Will I get bored of the 75km?
In the mean time I enjoy our family and friends trips. Ask me again in 10 years Very Happy
|
Exactly. Enjoy it for what it is now, more so as pistes expand. Half the Bulgarian cabinet have investments in the resorts, property and infrastruture, so it will happen. As the resort expands why would you want to sell ? Looking forward to the same in Borovets.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Boredsurfing, Incredible.... the bubble had already burst on a global scale, the UK was reeling on the property front........ and still Bulgaria gets pushed, whilst starting its' downward trend.
Bansko: Eastern Europe's answer to Aspen. - well they might call the region Montana, but it's not quite the same thing.
The only true comment was that there are cheap properties to be had......you might not want to live in one with out renovation but they were cheap, and still available.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| smagsmith wrote: |
| Will I get bored of the 75km? |
even 300km or 500km or 800km you will get bored at some stage but the thing with skiing is the weather makes the few km that you ski in a day woth while
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
The rules of ski property are plain and simple.
Never buy anything below 1800m, preferably 2000m, in the European Alps.
Global warming ain't going away.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
And neither are the continental weather patterns, NAO trends, 'could go either way' situations with the Atlantic thermohaline circulation (and plenty of others) that say your statement is bullschlager.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Never listen to Whitegold from any distance less than 1800m, preferably 2000m, even when wearing ear defenders.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I looked at it five years ago, there was a developer from Guernsey who bought a plot and did a fantastic development called Parklands. It just didn't stack for me as an investment so I didn't go in. The whole block was bought entirely by Guernsey people and quite a few of my friends have them. They haven't been blessed with luck, building work was delayed for a long time, the recession hit and the icing on the cake was the flood last year that took out the whole ground floor. The developer has been brilliant, never pressured people for money, really went out of his way to help people and the development really is top class. They originally Outsourced the rental programme but decided they could do a better job themselves and offered the owners a rental guarantee of 5%
pa if they committed to it for 5 years. Unfortunately when the flood hit they couldn't open this season the developer has taken the council to court over the cause if the flood and the compensation will cover Loss of income and refurbishment. So the guys who invested have generally taken the view that they are in for the long term now and have taken the short term loss on the chin. The location of the development and quality of it is superb and I think that will stand them in good stead down the line.
I went for the first time this year, I've skied in nearly 50 resorts all over the World and I loved it. The skiing is fine, didn't get off piste as it was too sketchy but would love to go back and try some of the couloirs there is a whole series of them not too dissimilar to the Freaux Couloir in La Grave. But it was the people that made it for me, if you get to know the locals you are in for a treat, generous, major p!ssheads, just brilliant. Every day after skiing the ritual was back to the ski hire shop and drink home brew for hours and we went to their local mehanas that were just stupidly cheap. Very easy to turn your nose up at it and don't get me wrong I'll still spend majority of ski trips in Verbier and Lech, but I would go back anytime.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
