ski pondering

A snowHead

This may end up as a rambling collection of fairly random thoughts but here goes:-

Been skiing the last 3 seasons almost exclusively on Line Prophet 100s, which I have to say have been great in the soft snow conditions of interior BC. They're only pants when it hasn't snowed for a week and the pistes are getting hard/icy. The obvious answer would be to pair them with a dedicated piste ski for such conditions, which is one option I'm considering. Something along the lines of a Head Magnum.

Now thinking of treating myself to a new pair of allrounders for next season and wondering where to go from the Line Prophets? The safe/easy option would be to simply buy another pair of Prophet 100s. I like them, they work for me and I'm used to skiing on them. But that would be too simple, so what else is out there?

Mainstream options that spring to mind are Volkl Mantras/Gotamas, Rossi S3, Salomon Shogun etc. Or I could consider small indy brands like Whitedot, Icelantic, Storm, Prior etc. Or possibly the fashionable trendy labels like Line, Armada, Movement etc. So that's already a lot of choices, so I need to whittle it down a bit before getting into demos

Now I'm naturally drawn towards the smaller brands (just to be different), but I have niggling doubts about their true ability to compete with the big fish on R&D, design, materials and manufacturing technology. But on the other hand the smaller brands don't have the restrictions of marketing, mass production and design by committee. So overall I'm really not sure on this point, but would be interested in hearing opinions on whether or not any of the niche brands are offering any real tangible benefits over the big brands other than the obvious exclusivity i.e. are they doing something different/better?

The second thing I'm wondering is whether or not ski technology has moved on significantly in the last 3 years. As far as I can tell, if I bought a pair of 2011 Line Prophets, they'd be identical to the 2007 model I currently have. There doesn't appear to have been any dimensional or structural changes at all. Maybe there have been some hidden tweaks? But elsewhere the big buzz word is obviusly "rocker". Now I'm all up for genuine improvements, but is this just hype or is "rocker" a real benefit to an all-mountain ski of this type? I guess I'll have to try them for myself, but would be interested in first hand experiences of moving to a rockered ski - pros and cons. I've seen some comical ski flapping on piste this season, which makes me quite sceptical of this trend but I am open minded. Then there's the Salomon BBR?!? Perhaps too ugly and expensive to even discuss?

So that's where I am really, no idea what to do! I'm far more happy with fat skis now than I was a few years back (although they are still rubbish on steep icy hardpack) and so will probably look to another 100 mm ish wide allrounder that can at least carve medium radius turns on piste, ride powder and manoeuvre in tight trees. Also has to be soft enough to handle bumps and tired legs, so I'd rule out anything ultra-stiff and demanding.

Thoughts on the above points welcome?

Cheers.

A snowHead

Take a look at DPS skis to if you want to know whether the Indies do better R&D than the corporates. Might answer your question about changing designs too wink

Regarding rocker, I got my first pair of rockered skis this year (Moment Bibby Pros), and yes, it makes a difference. Powder is much more fun, you get an awesome surfy sort of feel, and it makes it easier to open up your turns and go faster, however, it makes the most difference when in variable snow (tracked/cut up/crud/etc), where it's a real game changer. You just ride up over and inconsistencies.

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uktrailmonster wrote:

Now I'm naturally drawn towards the smaller brands (just to be different), but I have niggling doubts about their true ability to compete with the big fish on R&D, design, materials and manufacturing technology. But on the other hand the smaller brands don't have the restrictions of marketing, mass production and design by committee. So overall I'm really not sure on this point, but would be interested in hearing opinions on whether or not any of the niche brands are offering any real tangible benefits over the big brands other than the obvious exclusivity i.e. are they doing something different/better?

Always good to air these niggling little doubts as its a way for the indie companies like us to clear up any doubt.

RnD = I think the Indies win here. We have a budget that is in keeping with a company our size. The benefit we have is if I have an idea that looks good on cad I can just call up the factory and ask them to make a mould. Very little red tape and it's why the small Indie companies lead the way on rocker and freeride shapes and technology.

Design = Again like above we are free of corporate red tape. All designs are tried and tested as much as any other brand.

Materials = In most cases all big manufactures and small brands source materials from the same suppliers so the materials we use are the same spec as any big brand.

Manufacture = Although it's not uncomon (as seen in another thread) to mould share, there are few big factories and those that are around manufacture for many brands in cluding their competitor big brands. In our case we design and own tooling (moulds etc) but our skis are produced in a european factory more known as one of the Burton factories and most small brands are made in the same factories that produce for a number of bigger brands so for almost all small brands quality is never an issue.

Hope that clears a little up.

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uktrailmonster, I've liked the look of the Faction Alias for a long while now.

http://www.factionskis.com/en/gear/skis/alias.php

Worth a look.

Agree with clarky999 regarding rocker as well. I ski on K2 skis that have rocker and they just breeze over/through everything. Great in variable conditions, which is primarily what i ski.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Cheers guys, that's a good start. Just the sort of info I'm looking for - will check out DPS and Faction too.

Good to hear that rocker actually works in powder/variable snow. But are there any downsides I should worry about, particularly on-piste where I do still spend plenty of time? I'm not expecting miracles on hardpack, but I want something that can carve convincingly on an average piste.

Also good to hear that the indies are able to compete against the corporates and reassuring to hear that they are not made in someone's garden shed Wink

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uktrailmonster, i've not noticed any significant loss of grip. I was up at Cairngorm a couple of weeks ago (just before the big dump) and the snow was very hard and icy. The Hardsides performed very well. Might be worth noting that they have a couple of metal layers in them as well. DPS carbon skis would be even more torsionally stiff so would perform just as well, if not better. Obviously not as quick edge to edge as a slalom ski, but who'd notice. That was on very very hard icy snow, so on an average piste they perform perfectly - just as well as the Xplorers i had before. A lot of that comes on how soft/stiff a ski is to ski anyway.

I think that as long as the rocker is not too extreme, that there's minimal impact on grip. Buy your rockered ski longer anyway so you have as much effective edge as normal.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

uktrailmonster, Depends on the type and amount of rocker. The Bibbys are the only rockered skis I've used, so I've nothing else to compare them too, but they have rocker in the tips and normal camber underfoot, which works really well and they have plenty of grip (although unless the piste is PERFECT it's hard to get a genuine clean carve going, they're pretty fat and not the stiffest skis around).

I don't think rocker is going to help your piste skiing (no matter what some manufactures marketing teams say rolling eyes

), but if the skis aren't too fat, and if they're reasonably stiff tortionally, I don't *think* you'd have a problem.

After all it is free

uktrailmonster, They have discontinued the P100 from this year as they are now doing the Prophet 98 with a little bit of tip rocker for 2012. I believe that the Mantra will have rocker from next year as well.

I have P100 and am looking at making use of Quiver Killers and getting a dedicated piste ski for next season. I am also looking at Magnum's.

Love my S3s....have a look at my review in the S3 thread.
Rocker...well it rocks!

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Rocker = HYPE

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

These gwad dang kids and their devil inspired shapes eh.

When I was a boy we skied straight skis held together with flax and sweat. When men were men and sheep were nervous. Thats what we should all be skiing eh Toofy Grin

(not sheep by the way)

The line the sand is drawn here. Stop rocker now Twisted Evil

Because some folks just don't know a good thing if it hits them in the ar5e Very Happy

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You know it makes sense.

Dot., So Preacher (std camber) v Director (rocker) then? The Preacher sounds ideal for me with its relatively short radius, but it sounds like the new Director is your more forward thinking design? So how does the 27 m radius cope with shorter radius carving on piste? I briefly tried a pair of rockered Prior skis in BC with a similar radius and they only went in a straight line - which put me right off to be honest.

Would obviously love to demo both, but probably not feasible for me now except in a UK fridge. Any plans to visit MK in the coming months?

Note: I rarely ski on ice, or even hardpack!, so performance there isn't important and will be even less so if I get an additional pair of piste skis.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

early reviews are available of the Prophet 98... sounds fun

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/102413/2012-line-prophet-98-179

A snowHead

shoogly, cheers, good review. This would be my safest option as I'd almost certainly get on with these. What I like about the Prophet 100 is their easygoing nature, yet they can still charge on/off piste when asked. If the geometry tweaks on the 98 are a genuine improvement it ought to be a great ski for my tastes. But I'm going to try other skis too for sure, always looking for something better.

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The ski chooses you. You have to choose something you're going to love. If you can ski well you'll enjoy most of the recommendations. As for some toe rocker, it does make a difference but don't go for something ridiculously large. Sadly, rocker is here to stay. I say sadly, because more people that don't know how to ski are traversing good powder slopes in their rockered rental skis. Where will it all end...

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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uktrailmonster, Don't get me wrong I'm not saying rocker is a bad thing, just that it is in my opinion over-hyped. Rocker is great for off-piste, deep powder and variable terrain as it gives you extra float and allows you more manoeuvrability due to the shorter contact length. Rocker seems to have been hyped to the point that it seems every ski should have one, but for me it just does not ski quite right on piste and feels like a compromise too far. Dot., I will most likely be ordering a pair of Preachers in the summer as they really do seem like the perfect blend of all-mountain performance but I have not had a chance to test any yet and confirm my suspicions and the great reviews the skis have been getting. Smile

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

clarky999,

As long as not reverse cambered, can't piste skis with rocker just be bought at a longer length?

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clarky999, the difference is that longer normal piste skis would still have their front-most point of base contact near their tips. A longer rockered piste ski would confer the advantage of rocker in deeper, softer, cruddier stuff but would still have a length of ski that would behave conventionally between the rockered ends. At least on harder snow the ski would be engaged not at the tips but further back. Rebound would obviously be unchanged. This wouldn't be the kind of ski that would be bought for a snap in the tail, but in any case the tail area in front of the rockered bit could always be stiffened if necessary. There would of course be a degree of compromise but that's the same with all skis.

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slikedges, I meant what's the difference between rocker and reverse camber?

I don't really get the rest of your post either tbh, you'd buy any rockered ski longer than otherwise, but in a piste ski I really can't see any advantage whatsoever - in fact it just seems (in my mind, at least) a complete disadvantage. And why wouldn't rebound be changed - you've got less pop of the ski back from de-cambered in the turn to it's normal cambered shape?

You know it makes sense.

clarky999, the camber is reversed, ie hellbent, rather than having any conventional camber.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Isn't that the same as rocker?

A snowHead

No?

A snowHead

What? Rocker = tips curve up form the middle. Reverse Camber = tips curve up form the middle. Tip or tail rocker = curved up just in that place. Early rise = long low tip rocker. Puzzled

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Reverse camber skis have no regular camber. Rocker = a portion of the ski with reverse camber. slikedges is saying just tip rocker on a regular ski can't effect performance that much as long as it's just along for the ride on groomers, since the widest part of the ski can be behind it and behaves like a regular tip.

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Ah ok. Didn't realise that, normally people say 'normal camber underfoot' as an extra rather than just 'rocker,' and when we talk about rocker profiles on kayaks it's just the profile of the curve along the length of the boat (and that's been around since well before it was on skis...).

Not that the semantics matter lol.

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uktrailmonster, yeah that's what I meant by "just along for the ride", though I didn't do a good job of saying it- but I totally agree. A small amount relatively should probably be ok though - I think the big thing is in construction. A freeride ski isn't going to have the waist, and likely not the same stiffness (torsionally or laterally) to perform as well as a piste orientated ski, and any rocker will make that worse. Comes down to how much you can actually hit that limit with personal performance in the end though, so I think the trend to rocker the all mountain middle ground ish skis is pretty reasonable.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

uktrailmonster, sorry, to actually answer your OP, I think sticking with the Prophets is pretty reasonable. I really enjoyed my Prophet 90s all round, and they only left my quiver when I wanted to boil down to a high end piste ski and a just big days ski with the intent to ski my carvers 90% of the time as training for my next instructor cert.

I'm now on Dynastar Contact 4x4s, which I'd definitely recommend along as a borderline race ski with a 16m sidecut and a little more waist to make life easier which I chose over Magnums. My soft snow ski is a 100mm underfoot 183 Bro (carbon, really really mild early rise and a bullet nose), which is great if you're happy with a 35m sidecut, and feels like an excellent touring option too (I'm going to Dynafit them next season). I think Prophet 100s are in the same kind of range. Prophet 115s are also getting great reviews on TGR, I'd always take their piste performance feedback with a pinch of salt but the word is that the 15mm extra really doesn't take much away from the 100s.

After all it is free

DaveC, why did you decide to get rid of the Lhasas?

clarky999, sorry, misunderstood you, what I meant was exactly as DaveC explained. In future I'll try to use full rocker to mean reverse cambered and tip or tail rocker to describe normal camber underfoot.

DaveC, thanks!

BTW just bought a pair of ex-demo S3s at a price I couldn't refuse!

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clarky999, I started really enjoying the tree skiing here, especially the "crossblock three branches and duck that thing while looking for more snow" type trees, and there's nothing good about a 196 there. I was just down to my 4x4s this season, but picked up the Bros with dukes/skins for a cheap price. Without sounding arrogant, I didn't really feel like I needed a 196 Lhasa to ski any line at any speed I'll ever be comfortable with in Fernie over a 100mm more conventional ski. That said, I'll be adding a third ski to my quiver next year if I put dynafits on the 183s, and it'll probably be a 191 Lhasa or DPS 138 (or DPS 112RP if I can get a hookup) w/ Dukes. Like the idea of a Whitedot Director or something too, how fat kind of depends how I get on with Dynafits inbounds though...

(depressingly, this is something I've actually considered before!)

slikedges, another ski I really liked the look of. I feel like I'm turning into a proper instructor now I'm shying away from things >100mm!

Help!!

ski pondering

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