 Poster: A snowHead
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We had this argument in this thread. The bottom line is that you can make a turn using just inclincation, but you are restricted to a single speed for a given turn radius. Adding in a variable degree of angulation allows you to make that turn over a range of speeds - i.e. adds flexibility to your skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks GrahamN, that's essentially what I was trying to say - it is of course possible to use inclination (in fact a great many skiers do) but angulation makes the turn and the skiers ability to apply/control forces in the turn more dynamic which I'd suggest is a very good thing to promote.
I would have thought that as instructors/coaches we should be encouraging angulation rather than inclination as the ideal model, perhaps some disagree?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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roga, inclination is what gets the edge angle higher, angulation is the counterbalance. As much inclination as you can counterbalance for seems best to me!
The thing about defining "carving" as purely arc to arc turns seems like you're encouraging a very inflexible turn shape as the perfect turn? I've never really worried too much about my turns being arc to arc, and it's not a big CSIA type buzz word - I hear it more here than anywhere else! Is it really what intermediate skiers should be aspiring too?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The shot below was taken between a junction to some lifts (the one I am heading to was the Monte De La Chambre? in the 3V, I am in red bottom mid) The junction was relatively quiet, and the conditions were very good so I tried my hand at carving (and my definition of carving is what FastMan said it should be in his OP). I hadn't attempted this before on the slopes so was just going by what I had read in my book/seen online.
Going by FastMan's links on Angulation/Inclination  I clearly don't have any angulation going on. But, as Megamum previously mentioned, I had a very distinct sensation. I felt as if I was riding rails so to speak, turns were very smooth and consistent, and I don't recall doing anything other than rolling along across my edges and letting the ski do the work. I also noticed an increase in speed (no doubt because of the lack of resistance given when on your edges). You can see the tracks I have just left from the last turn, but you can just about see my previous 2 turns.
My question is this: from what you can see and what I have said, am I carving? Open to criticism, and a few insults.
roga, I would of thought angulation would have been a better method to employ (from what I have read) but I have not been taught it... yet 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| c0Ka|Ne wrote: |
| My question is this: from what you can see and what I have said, am I carving? Open to criticism, and a few insults. |
It's difficult to tell from that one photo. From the tracks that you have left you can definitely say that you skied at least a portion of that turn by tipping your skis on to their edges without skidding/rotating them. But it's not possible to say if you were linking turns and steering your skis just by tipping your skis on to their edges because we can only see a part of one turn. According to my definition of carving I'd need to see at least two or three turns to say whether they were carved.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| The thing about defining "carving" as purely arc to arc turns seems like you're encouraging a very inflexible turn shape as the perfect turn? I've never really worried too much about my turns being arc to arc, and it's not a big CSIA type buzz word - I hear it more here than anywhere else! Is it really what intermediate skiers should be aspiring too? |
If the start of a turn includes a pivot of some kind, or the tail of the ski doesn't quite follow the same path as the tip because there is a little bit of rotation/skidding through the turn would you say that's a carved turn?
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c0Ka|Ne, I agree with rob@rar it's quite difficult to work out from the photo although your posture suggests more inclination than angulation but there actually may be some present at some point in the turn. As DaveC says angulation acts as a counterbalance to the inclination and whilst you can get away with very little you'll find that in some turns and at some speeds being totally inclined in the turn could lead to you falling over as more of your weight goes onto your 'uphill' ski and gravity pulls you down.
If you ever get the chance stand side on on a moderate slope (with skis attached) and get someone to stand below you and grab the hand closest to them, then ask them to try and pull you towards them - your aim is to stay where you are and not get pulled towards them (or over). What you'll probably find you do automatically in order to stop being pulled over is to push your knees away from them towards the slope to counterbalance them whilst at the same time your upper body is being pulled in the opposite direction (probably bending at the waist towards the other person) - this sort of simulates the counterbalancing that's mentioned above.
IMHO, that's a good starting point for starting to get your head round angulation
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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roga, cheers for the drill, will give it a go when I get a chance.
The shot is actually from a video (which I just watched) and you are right about there being some angulation on the turns. I'll try to upload it over the weekend.
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Angulation is biomechanically weak, involves extra input and impedes flow. As I see it, it's only necessary at the top of the turn if bigger edge angles are desired but you're not going fast enough for inclination alone. It's necessary at the end of the turn in order to stay on the outside ski. Simply put incline at the top of the turn and increasingly angulate through the turn as required.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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slikedges, agreed, and it's hard to break the desire to angulate early to stay over the platform.
rob@rar, I'd call it a steered turn since that's what it is, but I do feel like saying "a turn with a steered portion is not carving" implies that a steered turn is bad, and carved turns get way too much bias on here. roga covered my viewpoint perfectly.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| ... but I do feel like saying "a turn with a steered portion is not carving" implies that a steered turn is bad, |
Not in my book
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| and carved turns get way too much bias on here. |
Not from me. I always say that it's just one of the tools in the toolbox. It's a tool I don't see being used very often, but that doesn't mean it is any more or less important than any other way of steering your skis.
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rob@rar, yeah, not a personal attack on anyone or anything. Just get the impression that some people are really bothered by it, especially the whole "leaving tramlines" thing - I think it's important to note that a high end steered turn will leave very thin tracks too.
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You know it makes sense.
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c0Ka|Ne, I think that's a pretty dang good first effort at carving. The tracks look quite clean.
You don't show much angulation in that frame, but understand that you are at the end of the turn, and it appears have already begun your transition out of it and into the next. At that point, what angulation was present at the apex of the turn would be long gone, so I would'nt expect to see much angulation in that shot anyway. For all we know you could have been angulatiing strongly at the apex.
I'm impressed with how well you appear to have done on your first go.
To all:
Angulation's primary purpose is to direct a skier's weight to where it best belongs; on the outside ski. The outside leg will always provide the strongest potential mechanism for resisting the force load generated by dynamic carving. Skiing with no angulation is possible, up to a point, but as edge angles grow, it becomes a problem because too much weight gets transferred to the weaker inside leg.
World Cup racers are the best carvers on the planet. None of them make turns in the race course with no angulation. They'd be on the butt if they did.
For park and ride on a low edge angle, no angulation can work. If you want to learn to to carve well, learn to angulate. With out good angulation skills, big edge angles, the holy grail of expert carving, will be beyond your grasp.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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One more angulation shot
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Poster: A snowHead
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DaveC, here is a quick sketch I made for someone else... pivoting here is using Fastman's definition of an unweighted redirection of skis not the CSIA "turning anything about an axis" version...
Anyway for what it is worth
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 12-03-11 4:07; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DaveC wrote: |
| rob@rar, yeah, not a personal attack on anyone or anything. Just get the impression that some people are really bothered by it, especially the whole "leaving tramlines" thing - I think it's important to note that a high end steered turn will leave very thin tracks too. |
It may be a thin track - but not a pair of thin lines... more like in this diagram...(from our glossary on narrow track steering)
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FAQ
