 Poster: A snowHead
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Over here people seem to be getting confused about it. Traditionally (for the almost 50 years I've been skiing), carving has been considered turning with no skid. The ski tails follow precisely in the track cut in the snow by the tips, and a thin, skid free track in left in the snow. Now, a new school of thought seems to be trying to call turns with a degree of intentional skid in them carved turns too. Is that happening on your side of the pond too?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| FastMan wrote: |
| Now, a new school of thought seems to be trying to call turns with a degree of intentional skid in them carved turns too. Is that happening on your side of the pond too? |
That would probably be called a "skarved turn". It's not a phrase that makes much sense to me, but it seems to be used more often.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FastMan, Brilliant, if thats the case, I can carve perfectly. 
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FastMan, I would agree with the traditional version. Doesn't mean I can do it though 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, yeah, the scarve term started being used here a while back. "Brushed carve" too. Now some seem to be trying to drop the S and the Brush qualifiers, and just call it all "carving".
Drluvski, I think you hit on the true motivation behind it. If learning to carve is hard, put smiles on students faces, and thereby pull in that bigger tip, by lowering the bar. "Coach, coach, am I carving now?" "You sure are, my little golden goose student!"
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Q. What is carving? A. Not what I do! 
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So what should we call it when we are on the edges and mostly carving but with a bit of skid? This is probably what I am doing though it feels like carving
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Mike3000, according to traditional ski technique vernacular, as soon as any skid shows up carving comes to a close. When skid is involved while turning, a person is steering. They had to steer the feet to create the skid angle, and they have to continue steering to maintain that skid angle and manage the turn shape as they proceed through the turn.
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Just wanted to add that being able to add that small bit of skid Mike3000 talked about is a great speed management tool to possess. It can look like a person is carving, to an outside observer, but they're traveling at a slower speed than carving would actually produce. In reality, being able to do it is a byproduct of honing ones steering skills to a high level. Specifically, it's about refining one skill at skid angle management.
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OK, if I'm being serious I always assumed that it was purely a ski on its edge next to another at the same angle and thus both skis scribe an arc in the snow with two pure lines left and no skidding in evidence. From the perspective of doing it on the occasions that I've accidentally got there I swear it is easier to feel when you are carving than to describe it. On the occasions I think I've done it there is a pure difference in 'sensation'. The ski's literally feeling 'on rails' as I have frequently read. I was amazed at the difference in feeling, but I am certain I can 'feel' when the skis occasionally do a 'pure' carve.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Absolutely, Megamum, it's a very distinct sensation. Once you experience it, you'll always know when you're doing it, and when you're not.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| FastMan wrote: |
Drluvski, I think you hit on the true motivation behind it. If learning to carve is hard, put smiles on students faces, and thereby pull in that bigger tip, by lowering the bar. "Coach, coach, am I carving now?" "You sure are, my little golden goose student!" |
Alternatively "Am I carving now?" "Almost, another 10 lessons should fix it" 
I'd say the term has been bastardised by years of casual use by (non technical) skiers describing any sort of piste turn as carving. If it depresses you I'd guess snowboarding is even worse - there is a significant population who use back foot steering who wouldn't know front foot pressure if it kicked them in the arris who'd swear blind they were carving.
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FastMan, interesting topic.
Can I clarify one thing though, are you saying there are now instructors/training bodies describing turns with skids as carving or that there are people (non instructors/coaches, basically non professionals) who erroniously believe they are carving when they are not and routinuely describe their faster turns as carves?
To me the latter is often the case but I am not aware of anyone professionbally involved in skiing who describes turns with some element of skid as a carve, perhaps I've missed something?
Thanks
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You know it makes sense.
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I recall an amusing(?) post from veeight on the subject. I'll see if I can dig it out..
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
being able to do it is a byproduct of honing ones steering skills to a high level.
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but being unable to stop doing it is a byproduct of just being fairly cr@p. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Good topic, Fastman. I'm fed up with reading that people have been skiing for 3 weeks and can now carve all their turns on blue runs and hope to be carving down reds next holiday.
I'm just jealous...... 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, personally I view such posts as being an example of non professional/technical skiers who seem to think any turn at a fast speed where they feel an element of edging is a carve, which is precisely what I was describing above.
I fail to see how people skiing once (or even twice a year) and in their third week of skiing could be doing anything approaching a 'true' carve - they could be absolute prodigies I guess but it seems far more likely they have completely misunderstood the meaning of the term "carving"!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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can't find it. He was alluding to 'high grip' turns where the tip and tail maybe didn't follow. Not I'd call it carving in the strict sense of the term, but I'm guessing it's relating back to current race technique.
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roga, Maybe not 'to order' but the law of averages suggests that the skis must carve by a 'sheer fluke' from time to time - I'm sure that would explain the odd occasion that I've been aware of it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, just to avoid confusion (and I guess this is what the thread is about) I guess I should define what I mean by a carve, and what I understand is meant when the word carve is used by professional snowsports organisations and individuals like instructors and coaches. I stand ready to be corrected if FastMan is saying there are people involved professionally who are now using it to describe turns with a skidded element but as I say abve that's not my understanding (as an instructor) and I havent (yet) heard of anyone professionally who argues that.
Anyway, as far as I'm concerned above and for the moment a 'carved' turn is a turn that is initiated on the edge of the ski at the start of the arc of the turn and has no element of skid whatsoever - tramlines should be left in the snow. Now forgive me but I think what you're describing is a turn that involves some edging, perhaps a lot of edging but I'd be surprised if it was all on the edge of the ski from the moment the turn was initiated. Skiers will feel the edge (maybe on most turns as their technique develops) for sure at some point in the turn and the more they edge and turn on the edge, even in the second half of the arc, the more they'll get that sensation you describe above but (as in the comment I responded to above) are people with 2 or 3 weeks skiing under their belt likely to initiate their turn by going onto the edge of the ski straight away (at the start of the arc) and will they stay there throughout the arc of the turn by sheer fluke, I sincerely doubt it!
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 3-03-11 22:45; edited 1 time in total
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| roga wrote: |
FastMan, interesting topic.
Can I clarify one thing though, are you saying there are now instructors/training bodies describing turns with skids as carving or that there are people (non instructors/coaches, basically non professionals) who erroniously believe they are carving when they are not and routinuely describe their faster turns as carves?
To me the latter is often the case but I am not aware of anyone professionbally involved in skiing who describes turns with some element of skid as a carve, perhaps I've missed something?
Thanks |
roga, there are now instructors over here defining carving with an allowance of containing a skidding component.
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A skidded carve is almost inevitable for most kit hiring holiday skiers anyway because most hire skis have their tip and tail edges blunted off by the shops to make them suitable for their average hirer. Trendy rockers are only going to exacerbate that.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 3-03-11 22:51; edited 1 time in total
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| FastMan wrote: |
| roga, there are now instructors over here defining carving with an allowance of containing a skidding component. |
Interesting, so do you think they're saying that to make their customers happy, as in "hey dude, you're carving" or are they actually seriously arguing that carving involves a skid and that's the definition everyone should use?
I'd go as far as saying I think they're completely wrong but then I'm a purist and see any blurring of the definition as a slippery slope (no pun intended )
How do the PSIA sit in this argument?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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roga, I've had at least two coaches refer to turns in a race context with a steered/rotary element to the turn as carved. I've replied that that was cowdoo - then got on with dealing with the technique irrespective of the label given.
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FastMan, Not so much with instructors over here but we see a fair amount of skiers with a few weeks of experience who want to improve their "carving".. I tend not to talk about "carving" as most people haven't experienced a pure arc to arc turn. Most recreational skiers I work with who would like to improve their "carving" dont have the skills yet, so i tend to talk about "performance" turns and work on bigger edge angles, more lateral movement, etc and then occasionally a carved turn will happen and once they feel it they "get it"
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret,
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Most recreational skiers I work with who would like to improve their "carving" dont have the skills yet
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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roga, I see where your argument is from. However, I think sheer flukes do occur. The first time I did it I was on a lovely shallow slope following some SH's (who yes ) had turned round to wait for me). The snow was good, the corduroy just about untouched apart from the party in front. I had been experimenting with my edges for a while, turned and suddenly felt as though I was 'on air' - I didn't know what had happened, but it felt bloody brilliant! On stopping at the party I was asked 'did that feel good?' They then said that was probably my first carved turn and turned me round to show me those two perfect tracks in the corduroy that you describe. I had about a week of 'non-snowplough' skiing under my belt, and fair few more snowploughing. I still struggle to replicate a full carved turn 'to order', but to this day remember the 'fluke'.
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You know it makes sense.
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GrahamN, out of interest and without naming names what sort of level were they qualified to?
skimottaret, totally agree I'm similar and don't like using the word as it seems to mean different things to different people (including 'fundamentalists' like myself lol) - I very much like your take on it there.
In fact it's worth asking the question, do that many instructors use the word or do they prefer to talk more clearly and technically in terms of edge angle, turning arc and where the edge engages in the arc?
Megamum, I think you're a prodigy!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| FastMan, Not so much with instructors over here but we see a fair amount of skiers with a few weeks of experience who want to improve their "carving".. I tend not to talk about "carving" as most people haven't experienced a pure arc to arc turn. Most recreational skiers I work with who would like to improve their "carving" dont have the skills yet, so i tend to talk about "performance" turns and work on bigger edge angles, more lateral movement, etc and then occasionally a carved turn will happen and once they feel it they "get it" |
With people like these I gently introduce the concept of "riding our edges" during parts of the turn; when people (who are not carving) ask if they are carving I will talk about the elemnts of their current turns and then how this maps onto the "pure" concept of a carved turn (rail tracks show carving IMO).
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Poster: A snowHead
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It's not "Carving" or a "carving turn" unless it's clean rail tracks arc-to-arc from initiation to completion and repeated. Leaving some rail tracks somewhere along a turn (usually phase 3) is just that - skiing cleanly on the edges for part of the turn or carving part of the turn. It's not "Carving". If "Carving" is going to be redefined as including an element of skid then we'll need to come up with a term for what used to be called carving. I was going to suggest "Boning" as it seems somehow related to "Carving" but keeping the culinary link have decided "Slicing" is probably more apt (and a lot more suited to a family audience). I'll keep the more clinical "Incising" in reserve for when "Slicing" gets redefined.
Seriously though I haven't heard any ski pros here try to call steered turns carving. Any turn is of course a blend of edge, pressure and rotation, but the term should be reserved only for turns where there are clean pencil lines to specifically demonstrate the lack of any significant rotational element to the turn.
I usually find that once I demonstrate a carved turn any confusion in the mind of the student as to what qualifies as such is quickly cleared up. Then if appropriate I try to teach them things which will help them start to ski cleanly on their edges, which are largely the same things that will help them become stronger skiers generally anyway.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| moffatross wrote: |
| A skidded carve is almost inevitable for most kit hiring holiday skiers anyway because most hire skis have their tip and tail edges blunted off by the shops to make them suitable for their average hirer. Trendy rockers are only going to exacerbate that. |
Absolutely agree.
Whilst rocker skis might make things easier for people, like floating in pow, they will deter from some of the brilliant joy to be had on piste.
Give me a full cambered ski or race ski any day, and i'm a happy montain goat.
The trend does seem to be focusing away from standard piste skiing in the younger generations ( sheesh at 31 I'm sounding old wih talk like that). And so maybe carving is becoming more mysterious... Like off piste was 20+ years ago....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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roga, one ISIA and one national level race coach (although not for Britain), and possibly one other who may have got it from one of the first two.
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slikedges, 100% in agreement!
GrahamN, I'm surprised but I guess that illustrates well what FastMan is saying
To me if you move away from a very clear (some might say black and white) definition of what a carve is you end up no longer saying that carving is a high end turn and instead end up with very nit picky arguments. I mean if skidding/rotary is allowable what percentage of the turn is it allowable in, how much edging is allowed at minimum or are they saying any turn involves edging at any point is carving, in which case the majority of second third week skiers are carving on that definition. To further add to the confusion what about pressure in the turn? I know that the race coaches you mention might have different concerns and emphasis and are dealing with high end skiers but that strikes me as the logical end result of their position.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle, Iski, No not you two!! but as a general rule of thumb it is unlikely that someone with a few weeks of skiing and a handful of lessons will be carving
GrahamN, hope it wasnt me!
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| slikedges wrote: |
| It's not "Carving" or a "carving turn" unless it's clean rail tracks arc-to-arc from initiation to completion and repeated. |
This is the key point. You need to be using edges without any rotation for at least two turns with a clean transition between them to be carving. Most of the skiers that I see who aren't able to carve do so because they don't make a clean transition (using a pivot of some kind to initiate the turn). At some point later in the turn they might drop on to their edges and use them to steer the rest of the turn, but it's not really carving. How many people do you see cleanly carving linked turns? I see very few, and almost no-one doing it on anything steeper than a blue piste.
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Next question - for the average European moderately busy resort skier how much opportunity is there to do sustained arc to arc carving? Is it a limited pleasure or is there a risk factor in encouraging people to aspire to it? No doubt its high performance skiing but if you get the skididng hordes doing it (without perhaps the finer control of an expert practicioner) is it potentially a recipe for chaos?
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Next question - for the average European moderately busy resort skier how much opportunity is there to do sustained arc to arc carving? |
If it's reasonably quiet I'd say there's plenty of opportunity. In any case, strength, fitness and bottle (if you're on anything remotely steep) tend to be the limiting factors rather than coming to the end of the piste. I don't think we should hold up carving as the pinnacle of skiing, it's just another tool in the box, but it would be nice if there was a wider understanding of how to carve with these 'carving skis' that we've been buying for two decades.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, I agree but was thinking more about the people environment - most people I'd guess will be aspiring to carve on potentially crowded blue runs. One of the best guilty pleasures I found last year was an isolated black (US so Euro red) about a mile long where you could get a sustained run without much traffic. I clearly wasn't carving it perfectly but 4.5 laps an hour with the benefit of a fast chair was a nice loosener.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| rob@rar, I agree but was thinking more about the people environment - most people I'd guess will be aspiring to carve on potentially crowded blue runs. |
Yes, I very much doubt they won't be able to carve anything steeper. From a safety point of view will there be any difference between hotheads carving their way down the slope and hotheads straight-lining it? I'd much rather see hotheads develop the skills necessary to steer their skis by carving - might not mean they are more inclined to be considerate of other slope users, at least they have the skills available for the few occasions when they might use them properly...
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