 Poster: A snowHead
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Oooh, a cross country skiing thread and I didn't notice probably till everyone else has forgotten about it.
Well, here's my pennyworth....
Pamw, Mr Badpanda and I have spent about three weeks on Salamon waxless xadv 69s this year in the Hautes Alpes.
I think they are a real tout terrain go-anywhere ski/ compromise ski which is not good for anything (delete as applicable). Their USP is that they are about as good as it gets for rando nordique (what the French call backcountry off track XC) but still fit in the tracks.
In the tracks, despite much French shrugging from man in the hire shop, I was surprised how good they were. In fact on the same track on the same day of the year, I actually found them better than classic track skis. Of course, this could have been better snow or fitness or (unlikely) technique this year. They are, of course, a joy for uphills (and take a climbing skin very nicely if it gets serious). I found they glissed very well on the flats (very stable)- Of course, you might notice more of a problem if you have a good technique!. Good on downhills (but I found my step turn degenerated from merely "inelegant" to "utterly unreliable" in them). Very very good on the long mythique Tour de France cols, zoomed down from the Col Agnel very quickly. (NB Mr BP had slightly more trouble in the tracks due to big male feet.)
Hors trace we got up to (and more importantly down from) cols like the Col de Buffere in the Nevache and nearly got up the 3000 Caramantan in my beloved Queyras.
Didn't really notice the weight, except on step turns.
Big advantage - so far the only metal edged rando nordique ski I have seen to hire in France. Don't know if you can hire them up there in the North. But very well worth trying if you can find them. FWIW didn't find them in Praz de Lys.
You might also try non-metal edged slightly side cut skis (often called nordic cruiser tho sometimes these have metal edges) which are much more like classic track skis with a bit of a waist. I had a lovely week in the Vercors on these and managed to get all along the Moliere crete (hors trace) on my feet. I was noticeably happier on the long descents than Mr Badpanda who was on classic track skis. Would certainly not want to go back to straight classic skis even on pure track days.
Would love to try the 89s but they won't fit in the track and I don't know if our downhill technique (Mr BP can only telemark to the left so that makes one tele turn between the pair of us, much amusing circling down hills....) is worth the reduction in glide.
Keep up the XC, as they say - Free the heel, free the mind.....
Have fun.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Badpanda, thanks, very interesting indeed. I was a little dismayed that you found your step turns deteriorated on those skis - what was that compared to? I was pretty useless at step turns, even on very gentle gradients and was hoping that was partly because of those long narrow classic skis. Maybe I will just have to fall back on blaming my rubbish technique?
I've googled these and found very little mention of their use in tracks.
What sort of boots did you use?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Pamw, how nice to talk XC with someone.
When I say my step turns deteriorated, I have to say that I was starting from a pretty low level. I tend to lurch from ski to ski like a pregnant elephant rather than a tippity-tappety ballerina tripping from foot to foot. I watch Marit Byergen (ouch spelling) coming round a corner and despair.
But honestly I found step turns harder in anything other than classic track skis. If you think about it, it is easier (or I am reliably informed it's easier - skating is still the dark side for me) to move from foot to foot on the shorter lighter skating skis. I am slightly less comic after a lot of practice but I still tend to bail out into a wedge turn (or even a bastardized sort of parallel turn on the 69s) at the slightest sign of trouble. I know I don't practice enough on the hour-long descents, just tending to go "wheeee" for long periods....To improve step turns I think the only way is to work the long long descents, the Vercors was particularly good for this as they tended to be gentler and less icy than, say, the Queyras, not to mention the sneaky bus or chairlift up!
Boots - we used what we were given. Firstly skating boots - get good very supportive ones with a reasonable sole. Also used specialised rando nordique boots which were more like a three season walking boot, felt much nicer on the ankles for downhills but a little heavier and less comfy. Depends if you are heading off into deep powder/ treacherous crust or sticking to tracks. If\when I buy I'll go for more chunky boots so I can walk on ice and stuff when I am hors trace. Would truly recommend waterproof socks and may invest in sexy calf length ones...
I was very impressed by the skis in the tracks but a)Mr Badpanda has confirmed that large male boots do go slower - although he spends more time in the tracks than me - and b) I spend a good amount of time out of the tracks, but it is very nice to slot back in, esp to chat if there are two of you. Try them and see how you go.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Goms-Oberwald struck me as having a thriving x-country ski centre when I went through there on a ski-touring trip. I see the site says there are 62 miles of trails.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If you want the best of both worlds you should go for a classic ski called short cut, this is a shorter ski than you average classic ski but as the camber (the bit in the middle) is same length you still get the same grip but with the skiing being shorter and allows you to both classic and skating quite easiy without having to use two pairs of ski's. I used to be a x-country ski guide and alaways used this type of ski as it was a lot easier for turning round and covering the whole of the group.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'll have to play around with some different hired gear, I think, and see how I go. I suspect that Les Saisies is a very classic sort of resort - and that there won't be a big range of choice.
I don't think I will be doing any skating - what I'm striving for is enough control on the descents to explore at least the easier parts of the big cross-country area without being afraid of injuring myself. I'm not scared of falling, or of a bit of pain (I sort of learnt to snowboard, which I found immeasurably easier - socking great metal edges!) but I did get quite scared by the descents and need to get out and get more practice. It's nice that the skis are much cheaper than downhill skis. Might try to get something in the end of season sales - would the "Vieux campeur" have a decent range?
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I grew up in Norway XC skiing and the only place worth going to is Norway imo. I have XC skied on the East Coast, in Italy, Canada, Bulgaria, Austria and probably other places too but in Norway it is by far the most popular and well established with trails going from town to town (some are even floodlit) and the terrain is great. Some of the trails are technically tough though.
XC skis (especially classic and not skate skis) are a bit of a wakeup call for anyone who is not used to them. They are very long (think 220cm), thin with no steel edges and the boots are like your street shoes. On hills they can be unwieldy and a little scary!
Stay away from waxless skis – they are truly awful in anything but bad spring conditions (ie. klister conditions)
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the only place worth going to is Norway imo
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I'm sure Norway is wonderful but as I spend months every year on the margins of one of the best (if rather challenging for a beginner) XC areas in France, I shall just have to put up with that.
I didn't find waxless classic skis "awful" - they went uphill just fine (given I had nothing to compare them to) and far too fast downhill! Badpanda gives a good account of those Salomon waxless skis, too.
I am keen to have a bit of a potter, half a day here and there, to get away from the downhill pistes and get a bit of exercise. I am not about to start wasting my life on the mysterious cult of waxing XC skis! In the same fashion, I enjoy a bit of dinghy sailing, but am not going to be overly upset if the tension in my standing rigging is sub-optimal.  In fact, I probably wouldn't even notice! If I sag a bit to leeward - well, at my age I'm resigned to that.
The classic boots I bought, in my ignorance, were lighter than any street shoes I normally wear round in a ski resort. They were more like slippers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Again, thanks for all of your responses.
I thought that would probably be the answer regarding using alpine skis but thought it was worth checking anyway.
I've got to admit, Scandinavia is very tempting as I have been wanting to go there (in particular Sweden) for a fair amount of time now. Plus there seems to be some very cheap flights to there at the moment. However, France, Germany, Switzerland and places do seem to have a wider choice of flights (from what I can see after a quick search).
Now just the hard bit - choosing which one! 
Thanks again for all your help.
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Skierbiggsy
I ski mainly in France but spent a week in Norway and indeed it is glorious. A few things that I noticed (compared to mainland Europe) when there with absolute beginners (may well not apply as I understand you are an experienced Alpine skier?):-
Our resort (Gala) was superb but not well set up for complete newbies. There was no grading of pistes into green, blue, etc Tho, all the pistes would I think have been graded black in Europe - there are no easy pistes d'initiation.
I found Norwegian skis harder for newbies. Firstly, they are longer than European ones (better for long gliding trips across plateaux) so trickier at first esp if you are tall. Also they use wax which some newbies might find a complication.
These may or may not be issues for you. It's certainly a good place to improve fast. FWIW we were inexperienced and had a ball.
Whatever, Norwegian snow is utterly reliable, fluffy and forgiving. It's a very relaxing place and the culture is based around XC skiing. Just take all your own booze...
Main advice - if you are choosing a resort in Spring, keep an eye on snow conditions. Outside of the Nordic lands, XC is probably more vulnerable to this than downhill. And, whatever you do, get at least a couple of good lessons at first.
Enjoy the world of free heel....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I didn't have time to login here and missed one of the most exciting thread this season! The discussion regarding places to x-c ski was just facinating for me!
In terms of snow condition, I think I'll mention St Moritz. The valley is at 6000', which is much higher than Lauterbrunen, snow is reasonably reliable even into the first half of April. Now, while the quantity of snow is not an issue, the quality does suffer in late season. It can indeed get icy or slushy, or even BOTH, on the same day!
I also have a slightly different opinion about using alpine kit for skating on x-c areas. While looking rather odd, I don't see why it can't be done. Granted, it'll be a lot more work than using x-c skating kit. But the OP wants exercise, after all! And I don't agree it would make the skater hating x-c skiing. I recently had the opportunity to skate a flat riverbed as part of my alpine circuit. After 2 km, I was just warming up, and secretely wish the skating portion were a longer one! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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abc, were you skating all that way in full alpine gear with downhill bindings? Cor! I'm pretty sure you'd not be allowed into the Les Saisies XC area with alpine skis - though I don't think I'd put it to the test. The downhill bits would be a cinch, though.
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You know it makes sense.
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Are you referring to the flat bit at the end of the Hidden Valley? You were skating very well on that bit!
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I've skated out from there on a couple of occasions now (beat the horse tow both times, but they did wait till they'd filled the ropes). Skating on nice wide alpine skis is easier than skinnies due to the easier balance on the wider skis, but it helps to have adjustable poles that you can adjust at least close to skating length (should reach to just above your chin ideally). Also that route is alost entirely flat/slightly downhill except for the bit where you leave the stream bed. Also I don't have nasty horrible fixed heel bindings  . I wouldn't want to do it for long distances though and i definitley wouldn't want to try to skate up any significant hills as thats when the weight of the skis comapared to xc skinnies would really show an effect.
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I found Norwegian skis harder for newbies. Firstly, they are longer than European ones (better for long gliding trips across plateaux) so trickier at first esp if you are tall. Also they use wax which some newbies might find a complication.
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A classic track ski should be the ~ same length where ever even "shortcut" skis are only about 10cm shorter than the equivalent 'normal ski'. I'm ~80kg and 5'10" and ski on a 195-205cm classic ski. The length is determined by the flex of the ski. With a waxless ski I ussually go for 195cms if I'm buying off the web. I'd be wary of buying a waxing sking unseen as I'd want to do the 'paper test'* to check that the flex characteristics matched my weight and to determine where the waxing pocket was. I find that its less important with a waxles ski, but getting it badly wrong could be why people don't like waxless skis. If the ski is too flexy for your weight the scales will be in contact with the snow all the time and glide will be slow. Too stiff and it will be difficult to get the scales to contact the snow even with good technique (a good dynamic transfer of weight all on to one ski) and the ski will have good glide but poor kick for the uphills.
*paper test Stand on both skis equally weighted with a sheet of paper under one ski in the binding area. The paper should move freely over a reasonable section extending from ~ the back of the binding to beyond the front of the binding. This is the waxing pocket - if it isn't there the ski is too soft and a stiffer ski in the same size or a longer ski is required (some manufacturers make 2 or 3 stiffnesses of ski in each size). Then transfer all your weight to the ski with the paper under it. The size of the area where the paper will move should be very much reduced. This is the klister pocket. Now transfer you weight dynamically onto the one ski. With most skis the paper shouldn't move at all. If if this doesn't happen then the ski is too stiff and a shorter less stiff ski is needed. When you've decided to buy the ski mark it up with the waxing and klister pockets and roughen up the ski in this area with a bit of sand paper. If I'm waxing I tend to start quite short particularly with klister, try the ski for grip and if its poor extend the area of grip wax.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Levi in Finland is a great place for XC - 230km of trails for both classic and skating, some of which are floodlit. The trail map is quite good and marks the difficulty of each track. There is a lot of flat stuff (on frozen lakes for example) and there are also quite a few cafes beside the tracks. Levi is only 15 minutes from Kittilä airport and since it is Finland's largest downhill ski resort it has plenty of accommodation and facilities.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| abc, were you skating all that way in full alpine gear with downhill bindings? Cor! I'm pretty sure you'd not be allowed into the Les Saisies XC area with alpine skis - though I don't think I'd put it to the test. The downhill bits would be a cinch, though. |
Yes, full alpine gear with downhill bindings!
To be honest, I think the fixed heel helps, in addition to the wider skis. Balance is not much of a issue and I was able to achieve a rather long glide phase after each kick, which really is the main appeal of x-c skiing after all. 
The fact it's a fairly heavy setup wasn't evident in the short distance I did. I'm sure I would think rather differently if I had to do 20 km instead of 2km!
I do wonder what they would say if you simply skated in alpine gear in a x-c area. I honestly can't see what the harm is. In fact, one of the itinerary I did in St Moritz happen to overlap with the x-c area, sharing the same skating lane. So I was skating past the classic skiers yet being past by a x-c skater! 
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| I recently had the opportunity to skate a flat riverbed as part of my alpine circuit. After 2 km, I was just warming up, and secretely wish the skating portion were a longer one! |
Are you referring to the flat bit at the end of the Hidden Valley? You were skating very well on that bit!  |
Yes, that was the longest stretch I've ever skated. And I really wasn't joking about the wishing it not to end bit.
| Dave Horsley wrote: |
it helps to have adjustable poles that you can adjust at least close to skating length (should reach to just above your chin ideally).
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Like many others, I cup my hand over the top of the pole and push off from the top rather than from the grip. Granted, that would become another sore point if one had to skate for extended period of time...
If anything, I d0 find the shape of most typical alpine pole grip not as comfortable as x-c poles.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| abc wrote: |
Like many others, I cup my hand over the top of the pole and push off from the top rather than from the grip. Granted, that would become another sore point if one had to skate for extended period of time...
If anything, I d0 find the shape of most typical alpine pole grip not as comfortable as x-c poles. |
The xc skating poles have a wristband that holds your hand comfortably strapped in fixed location, so there is no need to grip tightly, making the whole process easier. However, the biggest difference is in the length, as having headheight poles just makes the whole poling process so much more efficient. Once you've sampled, the concept of poling with alpine length poles is exposed as being incredibly inefficient.
I have also skated significant distances in alpine gear, and it's no problem on the flat, or even slight inclines, but the inefficiencies are exposed with any kind of steep or long climbs. Also there is a huge difference in skating 2 or 3 kilometers, and skating 20 or 30 km. I do agree that you are unlikely to attract any hostility while skating in alpine gear on skating tracks. I believe the previous comments were related to the assumption that the OP would take his alpine kit inito the tramlines.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The xc skating poles have a wristband that holds your hand comfortably strapped in fixed location, so there is no need to grip tightly
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Yes, I remember in our lessons being taught how to get the strap length right so when you pushed your poles behind you (generally both at the same time) they kind of flew out of the hand, and weren't gripped at all, but then fell back into the hand as you brought your arm forward. I was poling yesterday on alpine skis and definitely felt the lack of length of poles!
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FAQ
