 Poster: A snowHead
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rayscoops, that's horrendous. Looks like an accident waiting to happen, having gates so close to a T bar.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| freeheelskier wrote: |
| In terms of responsibility, it dosnt matter if its in a beginner area or in a black slope, the faster skier/snowboarder must always take care about slower skier/snowboarder |
+1
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| In the Chamonix slalom video the racing muppet who did the crashing into the lift queue displays almost unbelievable arrogance after successfully self-arresting, leaping out of the way of the apparently lifeless body of the snowboarder he'd just taken out hurtling towards him at the side of the T-Bar track and then just stands up and checks his pole straps without looking back. That says everything about his attitude to me. Inconsiderate & sick muppet. |
The video cut out so quickly I don't think you can make that sort of judgement about the racer. Having avoided a second collision with the person that could have added to potential injuries to both parties surely the guy looking up hill was the instinctive thing to do, esp as he was looking back to where the collision occurred and from where anyone or anything else sliding down would have come from. It looked to me more as if he was leaning on his polls in shock and gasping to get his breath back. It does seem beyond belief that a giant slalom course would be set that close to a surface lift with no form of barrier at all esp given the way the terrain changed and fall would take the skier into the lift?
On the subject of racing, I witnessed a very close shave to a horrible accident on the M1 RaceTrack a couple of weekends ago on CairnGorm. Despite a full slalom course being set up and several large warning signs at the top "DANGER - RACE TRAINING", a couple of guys standing chatting on the racetrack suddenly set off shuffling towards Horizon Road through the race course as I heard the whack whack of the gates getting louder and louder. Probably lucky for all concerned it was a coach and not one of the trainees and he managed to ski over their skis between them without injury to any of the 3.
However what I will say, however the blame might legally be dished out under the FIS rules in any of the collision videos, it doesn't make any injuries or pain, or the frustration of your season being ended any less. Be aware of what is going on all around you at all times - run away equipment doesn't obey the FIS code and I've had one close shave already on that score this season!
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| Quote: |
| The video cut out so quickly I don't think you can make that sort of judgement about the racer. |
Maybe I shouldn't have but self preservation and lack of concern for his victims is the way I saw it in the context of the video. Technically skilled racer or not, an experienced and concerned skier should have been able to make the judgement that it was not safe to race hard in proximity to a live uplift. From what you can see in the video, he doesn't look like a juvenile and was the uphill skier in any case so responsibilty for avoiding the downhill skier rests with him.
Whether or not he was actually taking part in an organised race (in which case the T-Bar may ordinarily have been closed) or risking putting in some practice whilst recreational skiers are adjacent to the course, is also uncertain. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| The way I saw the lift queue one was that the skier had just taken one hell of a tumble and looked to me to be winded and taking a pause for breath prior to doing anything else - |
you mean after getting up and jumping out of the way of the injured person rather than stopping him/her slide further ? and then deciding - oh I better look injured 
moffatross, no imv you were right !!
what was the announcer that can be heard on the video saying ? was he commenting on a race or telling the guy to get of the course ?
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rayscoops, getting out of the way seems the option least likely to cause further injury to either party?
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I understand that it is forbidden to race on pistes not set aside for this purpose. Time-trials/GPS counts as racing.
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Winterhighland, not sure, the boarder is almost coming to a stop and it would seem the safest thing to do would be to gently stop the slide and minimize the chance of picking up further speed with the possibility of further injury. Maybe a 'Doc' can advise what would be best course of action.
nevertheless the racer jumps up in a sprightly manner, does not seem concerned about stopping the sliding boarder, does not even look back or even turn round to see the route the boarder is following to shout to others to look out or help etc., and then as an after thought starts stretching on his poles - I read it as quite selfish.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think he is leaning on his poles, probably in a reasonable state of shock.
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Frosty the Snowman, exactly, and seeing as the clip cuts out at that point I fail to see how people can be making a judgement on what happened after that.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Frosty the Snowman, Agreed - if I'd just taken a tumble like that I think I would be do so as well. It is wrong to suppose otherwise as the footage doesn't continue IMV.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The way it was being filmed would suggest that it was a race in which case blame for the accident lies primarily with the people who set the course up and secondly with each and every person who raced. I agree with Dr John, and Frosty the Snowman, your instinct would be to get out of the way of the boarder and then since there's nothing else he could have actually done to help the situation then to collapse into a state of shock on his poles for a few seconds would seem the expected response. I seriously doubt anyone who has critisced him would be able to act any better/differently in that situation
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Blame, IMO lies with the course setters for not having catch netting to protect the lift line.
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You know it makes sense.
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Why on earth put a gated training run so close to a drag lift?... with no barriers etc... I hope that boarder was ok... not a lot of movement.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Incredible! No fence between a drag-lift and a slalom ski-ing course. You could say it was an accident waiting to happen. Those responsible for the slalom course were hopefully taken to task.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| Blame, IMO lies with the course setters/Blame for the accident lies primarily with the people who set the course up/Those responsible for the slalom course were hopefully taken to task/Incredible! No fence between a drag-lift and a slalom ski-ing course/Why on earth put a gated training run so close to a drag lift. |
So there're 5 or 6 people wanting to blame the planners, not the skier. So if an out of control uphill skier ploughs into me, if I'm still able, I can shake his hand but blame the pisteurs or the lift operators for not taking preventive measures. Nice. That'll give the blood-sucking, ambulance-chasing lawyers a rich, easy target. 
| Quote: |
| since there's nothing else he could have actually done to help the situation then to collapse into a state of shock on his poles for a few seconds would seem the expected response. I seriously doubt anyone who has critisced him would be able to act any better/differently in that situation |
OK. After the collision for which the irresponsible course planners were to blame and where he was just another victim of circumstance, the skier was able to right himself, dig his boots in, self-arrest, look around, take stock of the situation, see a lifeless body hurtling towards him, magnanimously spring out of the way so as to prevent further injury to the snowboarder and only realise then, that after all those brave, selfless actions, he couldn't help the snowboarder so leaning on his poles was the right course of action. OK, I get it. Silly me. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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moffatross, yes, silly you
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No more ski snuff-movie clips please.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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moffatross, maybe it was just instinct and panic on behalf of the skier after the fall (but he did seem in control and fully aware all the time though throughout the slide down the slope after the collision), but I can not help feeling that my first instinct would have been to reach out and grab the boarder and when I watched it for the first time I thought that was what he was going to do and I was a bit surprised when he jumped out of the way - but a shocking collision all the same though !
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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red 27, I agree, it's a downer but unforunately I clicked on the link and subsequently disagreed with some of the apparently conflicting views in this thread.
rayscoops,yes, I kind of hope it was all just reflex after such a horrible collision and that we just didn't see the bit shortly after the video finishes where the skier ran down the slope to check on the victim's welfare.
To me it's brought to mind that kind of horrible voyeurism you get reading a newspaper article or seeing a TV news report about a motor car colliding with a pedestrian or cyclist on an icy bend and then reading the following blame game / court case editorial. A successful defense argues that normally 50 mph would have been safe on that bend and the driver was not negligent because the local authority had failed to grit the night before / put up safety barriers. I'd have sympathy with both the plight of the driver as well as the victim but would always know that in my heart of hearts, if it were me driving, I should still hold myself primarily responsible for not slowing down when I was aware that it was a cold morning in December and that I was driving fast past pedestrians or cyclists.
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All the comments about "why didn't he stop her" are all very laudable, but I once tried to stop a mate who was sliding down the hill. After he'd wiped me out, the two of us eventually came to a halt 30 meters down the hill with a comedy yard sale behind us, both miraculously injury free, I decided that I wouldn't be doing that again in a hurry.
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I was also taken out by a skier from behind/above in Whistler, (I'm certainly no beginner either though but was taking it quite mellow on the green at the end of the day) where the green runs weaving down the hill on Blackcomb quite frequently cut through blue and red runs. This reminds me somewhat of the arcade game Space Invaders. Where this happens there is a sign FOR THE BEGINNERS, or people at least still with alot to learn, which says before the junction "LOOK UPHILL AND GIVE WAY". Tad bizarre me thinks, which is the reverse thinking of experts or intermediates should be responsible for any below or in front of them??
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inchhighj, The signs are simply the manifestation of the principle of look uphill and give way if necesary when joining the main run (or faster traffic if you prefer). While I have no sympathy for any uphill skiers colliding with those below who were moving I do get a bit pissed off by the many many people who have no thought to looking uphill when starting off, they should expect to be be buzzed aggressively. I suspect they don't routinely step out onto roads without first looking.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Dr John, what if your mate was sparked right out ? if the boarder was actually conscious I have no doubt she would have stopped herself quite easily by then because she was sliding quite slowly on a shallow part of the piste - for me it was the uncontested/unprotected/unguided slide whilst seemigly unconscious that caused me the most concern when I first watched it and hence the need for some intervention. If the boarder was in control or was trying to stop herself fair enough, but she seemed completely listless. Maybe in the circumstances the skier did not recognise that boarder was knocked cold out.
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| Quote: |
Where this happens there is a sign FOR THE BEGINNERS, or people at least still with alot to learn, which says before the junction "LOOK UPHILL AND GIVE WAY". Tad bizarre me thinks, which is the reverse thinking of experts or intermediates should be responsible for any below or in front of them??
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I suppose it depends on the layout - but if one piste crosses (at a fairly gentle incline) another, faster one, coming downhill then I would think the skiers on the crossing track should definitely look uphill before crossing. If the two are joining, rather than one crossing the other, there would normally be "SLOW" signs on both. Absolutely, anybody joining a piste, whether from being stopped at the edge fiddling with their equipment, or coming from the off-piste, or whatever, should check uphill before starting off.
Of course the skiers coming down should be on the lookout too, but they're not clairvoyant - responsibility lies with both.
I walked on a pedestrian path yesterday, which crosses several pistes. There are clear signs for the skiers warning of pedestrians but the signs for the pedestrians, warning of skiers, also warn them clearly that they do NOT have right of way.
All this discussion and grisly videos makes me feel very glad I'm out of here before the French school holidays!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've seen and been in situations where two unconnected skiers setting of from a ridge at the same time end up colliding a short way down simply because they end up turning into each other even though they may have started some lateral distance apart. 50/50 might be the balance of responsibilty, but if one party is seriously hurt and have friends around who speak the local language, and the unhurt party is alone and does not speak the language, the question of liability might be a little biased. Moral? Never ski alone?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
simply because they end up turning into each other even though they may have started some lateral distance apart. 50/50 might be the balance of responsibilty
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yes, I think this is a very real situation. I always look out for people skiing at the same level as I am - and depending on the situation will either speed up, or slow down, so that one of us is very clearly in front of the other.
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Question for you: am I the only person here looking at this thread and thinking "oh my gawd - accidents waiting to happen!"?
I may be being hyper sensitive and doing people posting there a disservice in thinking they're probably all one/two etc. week a year holiday skiers but I seriously don't want to be on a piste with people that think it's clever to boast about how fast they can straightline a run!
I also notice it seems to be all blokes doing the boasting and from experience fast overconfident males who boast about how fast they can go is something that I'd rather avoid!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Question for you: am I the only person here looking at this thread and thinking "oh my gawd - accidents waiting to happen!"?
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roga, I agree with you,, perhaps they have to little d--k
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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roga,
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I may be being hyper sensitive and doing people posting there a disservice in thinking they're probably all one/two etc. week a year holiday skiers but I seriously don't want to be on a piste with people that think it's clever to boast about how fast they can straightline a run
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Who has been boasting roga?
Here's my tale.
I'm skiing down a steady blue in serre chevelier slowly. It's a busy piste and there are quite a few kids around.
Suddenly i hear the swoosh of a high speed turn and wallop i get clattered from behind
poo-poo my skis are all over the place. My balance is stuffed. I desperately try to stay upright. I succeed but my tips have crossed. I manage to get them uncrossed.
In the last second or three i've picked up more speed. My eyes focus and lo and behold right in my path is a tiny girl stationary on the piste.
Have i got time to turn? Probably not. What then? Whack, i hit her full on and scoop her up and i cling on. Down i go on my back. Then i'm off down the piste on my back head first still clutching girl.She's not happy, her skis are still on and she is flailing them everywhere. 50 or so meters down piste and my head stops us against padded pylon leg. We both stagger to our feet. She's cheered up, seems fine. Mum and Dad arrive. I'm thinking that it's b@llocking time, but no Dad shakes my hand and pats my back. They all ski off and i realise i have not quite kacked my pants.
I was the uphill skier. Was i to blame under the "rules"
PS. I've not made this up to play devils advocate it happened as written.
Geoff
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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geoffkay, no doesn't sound like you were to blame. But does your very specific example absolve all idiots who crash into people below them because they are skiing faster than they can control? Should we abandon the expectations of safety and courtesy outlined in the FIS code because we can think of a few rare examples where the uphill skier is not at fault?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, I would consider the consequences of my example to be extreme, but being hit from behind is not that rare unfotunately. On same week as the above event
all four of us were hit from behind with varying degrees of force. I would also argue that being struck from behind or having to take evasive action and as a consequence losing ones own control happens quite often. I have not advocated the abandonment of any safety code, but have tried to illustrate that realtime events on a piste are often not as cut and dried as you and other posters seem to imply. Whilst i have to agree that the uphill skier must usually carry the can, this is by no means always the case.
Geoff
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Anyway, in the situation described by geoffkay, the uphill skier is at fault, but it is not him. The uphill skier who is responsible is the guy who clattered geoffkay, from behind, put him off balance and set off the chain of events with the wee girl. Not his fault but the speedster's. I think remains a simple matter of an uphill skier going too fast and causing an accident in which geoff was an innocent victim along with the girl.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 10-02-11 12:01; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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When you drive on a motoway in the finish it gets so busy that everyone slows down - even the d-i-ckhead in the faster MK I cortina finds they can no longer progress dodging between folks and has to ease their speed. I've never seen this happen on piste and said Cortina skier still seems determined to get down first no matter how busy or how bad the conditions in many cases. It's a real shame there is no way of enforcing a reduction of speed in certain circumstances. geoffkay, Well done you for hanging on to the 5 yr old and to her parents for understanding your predicament.
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| geoffkay wrote: |
| Who has been boasting roga? |
Personally I feel posting something like "I clocked myself at 70mph on my gps on the black/red run at [insert resort of choice]" has a large element of boasting - that's my take on it and I guess it's because I'd never dream of making statements like that because I don't think it's something to proud of nor do I think speed on piste of and in itself is clever. In fact it's often very stupid and I've warned quite a few people (males invariably) about it on both snow and dry this season. I say that as someone who may well have gone faster than many on courses and in training but I simply cannot see it's anything to trumpet unless accompanied by skill and that usually involves some element of turning.
Agree with rob@rar on the getting hit from behind point - seems blindingly obvious that if someone is wiped out by another rider from above prior to colliding with a third rider it's the fault of the one who caused the initial crash. Is that not a no brainer or am I being simplistic
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roga,
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Is that not a no brainer or am I being simplistic
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It is and you're not.
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| geoffkay wrote: |
Whilst i have to agree that the uphill skier must usually carry the can, this is by no means always the case.
Geoff |
I'm glad we agree. I suspect that examples where the uphill skier blamelessly hits the downhill skier at speed are quite rare I'm sure the are times when this is the case.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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roga,
| Quote: |
| Personally I feel posting something like "I clocked myself at 70mph on my gps on the black/red run at [insert resort of choice]" has a large element of boasting |
Is this sort of post on this thread roga, or are you generalising? If it is i missed it and i apologise.
| Quote: |
| Agree with rob@rar on the getting hit from behind point - seems blindingly obvious that if someone is wiped out by another rider from above prior to colliding with a third rider it's the fault of the one who caused the initial crash. Is that not a no brainer or am I being simplistic |
Roga, everything is blindingly obvious when you are in full possession of the facts, but what if
1. the girls parents didn't see me hit from behind.
2. I had been alone with no witness to events
etc
I suspect quite a few posters on here would have had me lynched.
Megamum, i don't know how old she was but 5 years seems a very good guess. You weren't in monetier last feb were you?!
Geoff
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geoffkay,
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if
1. the girls parents didn't see me hit from behind.
2. I had been alone with no witness to events
etc
I suspect quite a few posters on here would have had me lynched.
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Indeed, but that's a different point. (It's not unusual for posters on here to jump to conclusions in the absence of evidence. )
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