 Poster: A snowHead
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The instructor did not nab his pass because, as mentioned above, I doubt he had the authority to do so. However, it has to be said that he also had no intention of letting the dickhead go off without:
1. ascertaining that I was perfectly OK (I later discovered a nick on my goretex jacket, but wouldn't swear the accident caused it),
2. imparting a lecture in the local language (which from my stand point sounded fairly firm in tone), which by all accounts several times pointed out the slope width around me
3. eliciting that the dickhead accepted full responsibility,
4. getting me an apology
5. giving me a chance to level said wassocks head off his shoulders in my own lingo
When about 15 minutes later I had nearly been taken out by No. 2 boarder in a similar fashion he was heard to wonder if I had some sort of magnetic properties about me!
However, pam w, My instructor was clearly uniformed in green so yes, I'm afraid folks do take out people clearly under instruction. Also, you would have thought the fact that I was on one leg at the time was an even better reason to give me a huge berth. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jake43,
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I spend a lot of time on the green slopes above my wife acting as a block to try and keep others who are going much faster away from her as she wants at least a 5m bubble around her. Not easy as there is so many "experts" that seem to love blitzing down a marked slow zone as close to beginners (which they seem to view a moving trees or slalom gates) as they can get.
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I tend to do this when skiing with my kids also but one of the issues is presents is that you are in effect blocking to some extend the ability of those moving faster, but not necessarily too fast or out of control, to see and predict the person whom you are protecting.
As for the video it presents some interesting points for discussion.
1. Was the uphill skier out of control - Up to the point slightly before his crash I think so.
2. Was the uphill skier being reckless - I think so, clearly too fast to be able to predict and react to the downhill skiers actions, but that in itself doesn't make him out of control in my books.
3. Interestingly the downhill skier (and forgive me as I can't turn the sound up so don't know what was said) seems to be relishing in the accident.
The uphill skier is, in my opinion, completely at fault, but it looked like quite a hard crash and I hope we walked away without anything more serious than the wind being knocked out of him.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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if a skier is not in enough control of his/her speed to react to and avoid a down hill skier, doesn't that make them out of control ?
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I feel quite sorry for the guy who wiped out in that film. Yes, he was going too fast for the circumstances, but we have all been there. I think he was - correctly - giving the person with the child a wide berth and this led to him taking a straighter and thus quicker line than he wanted. His gap disappears as the skier being filmed makes a move to his right to join the mate who is filming him. He is thus forced to make a sharp turn left and loses control and wipes out. A far as I can see there is no collision at all.
Nobody's perfect!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rayscoops, I don't believe so. Skiing at a speed inapropriate to the conditions but not out of control per se. Can we all with absolute hand on heart say that we ski/drive/ride at a speed that allows us to react to all possible scenarios?
As I said I think the uphill skier was clearly at fault and had he not avoided the downhill skier it would have been a nasty accident, much nastier than it appeared to be without knowing the extent of his injuries as clearly the speed differential was quite high, but he did avoid him at his own expense.
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shoogly, 100% the fault of the fast boy. I don't think he was out of control (not up to the point of the crash anyway), just going too fast for the narrow piste and chose completely the wrong line. His stack came about because he anticipated the downhill skier continuing his traverse, so tried to nip down the narrow side (which could have ended up taking out the cameraman anyway) and didn't have the requisite skill to make the last minute adjustment (the flash of snowplough gives it away), and caught an edge.
My take on it, becauseI know everyone's interested, is that fast boy has recently learned how to open the taps but too recently to learn when to wind it in.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 7-02-11 16:37; edited 1 time in total
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Chris Bish, in those circumstances he should have changed his turns - a skilled and versatile skier should be able to go from short radius turns to wide radius turns if necessary, even when going at speed.
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roga, Quite so. I am not trying to excuse him and I for one would have slowed down as soon as I saw the kid (assuming I could even go that fast in the first place, which is unlikely.)
Just as a point of interest, in the unlikely circumstances of my going faster than a traverser, I always aim to pass behind the slower skier on the basis that they are thus skiing away from me. I have been criticised for this as my bulk whooshing past where I cannot be seen is said to be seriously scary. Any thoughts?
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Unfortunately my wife was subject to a faster skier knocking her over on a slower piste in Le Plagne last year and whilst she luckily didn't suffer any broken bones , she was badly brused and it completely crushed what little confidence she had. The skier did stop - but only long enough to realise she couldn;t understand his French & without any French voices in protest he left her on the ground and took off after his mates (unfortunately I was lower down keeping with my son).
Whilst it is up to the skier down hill to look up when starting / pulling out onto a piste etc. , people still have to be responsible for their actions - whether that be driving a car or skiing / boarding. If they feel they are experienced enough to go fast (in or out of control) then they should be able to anticipate peoples direction & changes of direction (same as overtaking on a motorway) if not then they should bring themselves under control.
I do find it easier when coming up behind people if they are using the pole placed down on the inside of their turn to indicate direction of travel however having completed 7 weeks of skiing, whilst I consider myself an intermediate skier, I have only just started to master the timing of polling to show my changes of direction.
I agree with the above - it is harder to anticipate boarders changes of directions and as a result I give them a wide berth - similarly when coming up behind beginners / slower & obviously nervuous skiers I either give them a wider berth or pull in behind (if on a narrow piste & wait for a safer passing place).
I am by no means perfect but I would like to think we give people the same curtousy we would hope they give us, as after all we are all on holiday and wish to continue to enjoy it safely. . 
Noisey
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roga, agreed. Viewing it again, he seems to panic and freeze about 20 feet from the downhill guy, resulting in a few yards of straight-lining which got him into all sorts of bother. A hard turn to left, dumping speed in the process, would have seen him safely past on t'other side of the piste.
I reckon he would have been shaken up by the incident, hopefully taught him a lesson. As Chris Bish say's we've all probably done similar, the key point is to learn from such incidents. I had to make an emergency stop in ValD this year to avoid a crocodile of learners when the weather was closing in. We took it as a sign that an early lunch was called for.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| roga wrote: |
| Chris Bish, in those circumstances he should have changed his turns - a skilled and versatile skier should be able to go from short radius turns to wide radius turns if necessary, even when going at speed. |
+1
The skier coming down the slope quickly didn't seem to be looking far enough ahead (or didn't ski in a manner as if he was looking far enough ahead). As a result when the skier downslope made a sharp right turn he barely had enough time and space to avoid the collision, and immediately lost control. That seems to indicate he was skiing right at the very edge of his abilities. Nothing wrong with skiing at the edge of your abilities, but prudent to leave more space for a bigger spill zone if, for whatever reason, you lose control. In this particular case he could have blended in to some bigger radius turns to give the downhill skier more space, without having to bleed off any speed of his own.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rayscoops, seems very dangerous to have a high speed race gates right next to a drag lift! An awful impact.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 7-02-11 17:05; edited 1 time in total
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rayscoops, that was some impact on the ankles!!! ouch 
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You know it makes sense.
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shoogly, reminds me of a pic at the first aid course of a young guy on cairngorm who had been hooning it with his mates when he hit at horizontal bar at about a foot off the ground at full speed
One of those pics where it takes a while to work out what you are looking at 
Still being true Scots they didnt want to bother the ski patrol so his mates hauled him to the carpark dumped him in the back of their transit and drove him to A&E with the soles of his feet pointing at his knees.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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For the first of the latter two video clips, the skier behind is entirely responsible for his crash. He was at the limit of what could be termed his skill level, he was aware of the skier ahead of him and made assumptions and gambles that didn't pay off resulting in his tumble. He might be privately fuming at the English skier but that is his problem.
The second clip merely demonstrates what can happen when a racing course is badly instigated. Here, there would probably be vicarious liability but upon whom would need to be firmly established (ie, the ski school, the racing club or whatever organisation set up the course). This really ought to be used as a case study by racing clubs and the like of what can go wrong when the best of intentions go horribly awry.
Watching all of these crashes is making me nervous!!!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Frosty the Snowman, shoogly, enough of an excuse for me to never get on one of those devil's devices 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rayscoops, but if you never go near a T-bar or poma, you're missing out on so much fun.... amongst the funniest things that i've seen on a mountain have happened when people try to get on one of those tows!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| shoogly wrote: |
this was a close one!!! no excuses... the fast skier was out of control and should have been more aware of what was happening in front.
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i dont think it's quite that cut and dried, the slower skier look to deviate from his original flow to join his mate.
nice to see people enjoying someone else misfortune
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| mugen wrote: |
i dont think it's quite that cut and dried, the slower skier look to deviate from his original flow to join his mate.
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I disagree. There is no doubt that the skier coming down the hill from behind the guy being filmed has complete responsibility for not crashing in to the person below him. Complete responsibility.
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shoogly, only as a last choice option 
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| mugen wrote: |
| i dont think it's quite that cut and dried, the slower skier look to deviate from his original flow to join his mate. |
You're allowed to do that. There's nothing in the FIS rules, nor should there be, that you must trace a pure sine wave with fixed wavelength and amplitude. There was nothing the downhill guy did that wasn't within a reasonable envelope of predictability.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 7-02-11 18:31; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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mugen, so what? If someone want to deviate from their original flow then they can. The problem was that the fast guy didn't have the skill to deviate from his own original flow at the speed he was going at. And I didn't read their reaction as laughing at someone's misfortune, rather nervous laughter at a very very close shave.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| the skier coming down the hill ... has complete responsibility for not crashing in to the person below him. Complete responsibility. |
And it amazes me how so many people think there are excepting or extenuating reasons, circumstances or excuses for not observing that rule and try to pass the blame or at least part of it onto the downhill skier e.g.
They were under the brow of the hill so I couldn't have known they were there.
It was icy and nobody could have avoided them.
Visibility was poor and they obviously didn't see me coming.
She was a beginner and just shouldn't have been traversing that narrow slope.
They just suddenly stopped / changed direction without even thinking about the skiers above them.
Sadly, downhill skiers need to be aware that some uphill skiers have these attitudes so as to minimise the danger of being wiped out by a muppet.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The downhill skier in the video posted by shoogly. is not skiing unpredictably anyway. He has skied a narrow width of piste, making completely predictable turns straight down the piste leaving enough room between himself and one edge of the piste and well over half of the piste on the other side for the faster skier to go through. There is no sharp turn to the right, just another swing right and then left within the same sort of lane. It's as if the latter just wasn't looking and only saw the downhill one at the last moment. No excuses for the uphill guy at all. And the skier with the child is irrelevant - well out of the way of the faster skier.
Anyway, as has been said, the uphill skier cannot blame unpredictable movements: he should be be anticipating them, not using them as an excuse. It's the same as driving past a cyclist on the road - you should allow for the cyclist to wobble.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 7-02-11 19:12; edited 2 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dr John wrote: |
| And I didn't read their reaction as laughing at someone's misfortune, rather nervous laughter at a very very close shave. |
If someone had come that close to me, out of control and at that speed, I would have been quite pleased that they had taken a bit of a tumble. I would like to think they might see it as a learning opportunity and not repeat the same behaviour. And I might have had to stifle a bit of a giggle when somebody comes a cropper from acting so stupidly.
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in those circumstances he should have changed his turns - a skilled and versatile skier should be able to go from short radius turns to wide radius turns if necessary, even when going at speed.
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Just as an aside during the same lessons as I was bowled over in, I spent a long time learning to do just that. I followed the rotten instructor all over the place and it wasn't easy - he got faster and faster and having to react in an instant to where he next decided to go was very tricky - far easier for him - he knew where he was going next, but not me. However, I cracked it and really closed the gap and was really pleased with the result I was skiing in a way I didn't realise that I could. It was a valuable lesson and if no-one has ever done the exercise I would thoroughly recommend it - short turns, long turns, half turns, completely round and back on yourself working L's across and down the piste in the same direction, opposite directions whilst following someone skiing unpredictably etc. Absolutely fantastic practice for avoiding all and sundry and well worth doing.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yep, they've all been muppets so far.
In the Chamonix slalom video the racing muppet who did the crashing into the lift queue displays almost unbelievable arrogance after successfully self-arresting, leaping out of the way of the apparently lifeless body of the snowboarder he'd just taken out hurtling towards him at the side of the T-Bar track and then just stands up and checks his pole straps without looking back. That says everything about his attitude to me. Inconsiderate & sick muppet.
In the Saas-Fee video, the blue run hero muppet was going too fast on a busy piste and that's all there is to it. There was plenty of unoccupied downhill to either side of the groomed if he needed a bit more of a challenge but instead, feeling the need for speed, he chose to be a muppet on the groomed. Stupid, incompetent muppet.
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Poster: A snowHead
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and off piste is supposed to be dangerous !!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The way I saw the lift queue one was that the skier had just taken one hell of a tumble and looked to me to be winded and taking a pause for breath prior to doing anything else - I would have been interested to see the footage after it stopped to then see what his reaction was. I was rather pleased to see the out of control nut who nearly took out the blue run guy pile up - maybe it was a bit of a lesson learner for him.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Dr John wrote: |
| And I didn't read their reaction as laughing at someone's misfortune, rather nervous laughter at a very very close shave. |
If someone had come that close to me, out of control and at that speed, I would have been quite pleased that they had taken a bit of a tumble. I would like to think they might see it as a learning opportunity and not repeat the same behaviour. And I might have had to stifle a bit of a giggle when somebody comes a cropper from acting so stupidly. |
is that the same as taking joy from anothers misfortune?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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manicpb, by what definition is that an empty piste? There's people to the left and the right of him, any of whom could have traversed across his line at any time. "Bloody hell Dave, why are you such a d!ckhead" is what his mate should have said.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Dr John wrote: |
| manicpb, by what definition is that an empty piste? There's people to the left and the right of him, any of whom could have traversed across his line at any time. "Bloody hell Dave, why are you such a d!ckhead" is what his mate should have said. |
Sorry, thought I'd try some of that internet humour!
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manicpb, ahh, right, get you. Apologies. Brings to mind another thread where a couple of berks were extolling the virtues of trying to record GPS high speeds. I wonder if they're related? I also doubt very much that he was going at 63mph, I'd say he barely touched 63kph.
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| mugen wrote: |
| is that the same as taking joy from anothers misfortune? |
Not really, it's hoping that someone learns from being taken down a peg or two, and being pleased that someone who was very clearly in the wrong ended up taking a tumble themselves rather than possibly causing an innocent party serious injury. Laughing at beginners who fall over might be described as schadenfreude, but being pleased when somebody gets their comeuppance is a completely different thing (provided he wasn't hurt, which didn't seem to be the case from the video).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just tuned into the freestyle world cup on Eurosport in time to see a horrific crash in the ' ski cross quarter final - one ski came off and all four runners crashed. And that's just the ladies
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This thread looked at the definition of beginner earlier. I wonder what would happen when out of control beginner A takes out beginner B from above. Beginner A technically is at fault, but it is an unfortunate circumstance. I was thinking of the uncontrolled beginner that hurtled down Chantel screaming and ended up in a yardsale just over a ridge. She nearly took out one of my kids who luckily were aware of what was approaching and got out of her line, and I guess luckily piled up prior to hitting anyone - I doubt she had ever had a lesson. On an indoor slope they won't let you ski recreationally on the main slope (which is like a nursery slope on a ski area IMV) unless you can link a turn, maybe the same should be enforced in various areas on a piste and ladies like the 'screamer' limited to the ski garden until they have some control. N.B. I did take pity on her and the kids collected her ski for her and I made sure she was OK.
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FAQ
is where a person enters the piste without checking uphill.