 Poster: A snowHead
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Well, knowing how much you all get off on winter tyre speak, I decided to run my own consumer research into the usage of winter tyres in a country where their usage is regulation (and non-usage punishable by years in the cellar or a fine). So last week, while waiting for someone to turn up, I found myself in a busy and very snowy Tirolean car park with some time to kill. First thing I noticed was the huge variety of nationalities parked up... Austrians and Germans (obviously), Dutch, Slovenian, Czech, Romanian, Belgian, Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, two lone Brits, a few Swiss.
I met with a few stares from the car park attendants, and from a few folks still putting boots on, as I moved slowly in a monkey-like stoop among the vehicles looking for that all-important snowflake symbol. Frankly, they weren't that easy to spot but I could see that some were clearly snow tyres on non-standard issue rims and many were clearly normal summer tyres.
My findings:
The Dutch... can't be ar53d with winter tyres. That'll be another spliff and summer tyres all round thanks.
The Austrians... they can - their 100% record intact.
The Germans... 30% with : 70% without (which surprised the hell out of me too)
One plucky Brit... a sparkly new 4x4 but summer tyres. Fail.
Me... obediently obeying ze rules.
Everyone else... can't be ar53d either.
So, there you have it, we spend hours pontificating about winter tyres here and Johnny Foreigner can't give a toss. That said, and despite the heavier than normal snow falls, the roads were swept clean to perfection so maybe that winter tyre rule is just the Austrians being totally anal.
NB... I wasn't wearing a helmet.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bode Swiller, Great info thanks 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Shimmy Alcott, you just liked the "monkey-like stoop" bit.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Bode Swiller, is that burning rubber I can smell?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Shimmy Alcott, don't know. Try turning the rabbit down.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bode Swiller, hope you managed a firm grip in the snow
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Bode Swiller, The Germans must all be breaking the law after all those accidents on German roads when the snow came down
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chrisb, well, technically, nearly all of 'em were breaking the law in Austria anyway.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My findings:
The Dutch... can't be ar53d with winter tyres. That'll be another spliff and summer tyres all round thanks.
The Germans... 30% with : 70% without (which surprised the hell out of me too)
One plucky Brit... a sparkly new 4x4 but summer tyres. Fail.
Everyone else... can't be ar53d either.
NB... I wasn't wearing a helmet.[/quote]
Bode Swiller - Coollerrr... shirthty dayzs!!!!!!!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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So good it needed posting twice, where's DG when you need him 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Bode Swiller and I've removed the duplicate.
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I've not lurked round car parks but I'd be surprised if more than a small minority of French visitors to Alpine resorts have winter tyres. But they put their chains on pretty frequently - last week the majority of vehicles moving around were chained (and there were "special equipment obligatory" signs down in the Arly Valley). Locals tend to have winter tyres, though, according to one of our neighbours who had got his changed just before the big snowfall in October.
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You know it makes sense.
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Yep, lots of chains on cars up in La Plagne, although by the end of today, the 3rd consecutive day of sunshine I would guess that they won't be needed even up at Plagne Villages and Belle Plagne.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| I met with a few stares from the car park attendants, and from a few folks still putting boots on, as I moved slowly in a monkey-like stoop among the vehicles |
they most probably thought you were an ultra keen dogger
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Poster: A snowHead
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To be fair to the Austrians, winter tyres are supposed to be grippier at lower temperatures as opposed to just better in the snow (normal tyres start to harden up at about 7 degrees or so from what I remember) so they'll still be somewhat less likely to make friends with an Alpine tree 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bode Swiller,
| Quote: |
So last week, while waiting for someone to turn up, I found myself in a busy and very snowy Tirolean car park
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Bode Swiller, It's a long way to go just to get stood up
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
| I've not lurked round car parks but I'd be surprised if more than a small minority of French visitors to Alpine resorts have winter tyres. |
I drove from GVA to Les Arcs on Christmas Eve. It was snowing for all of the journey, and even though the autoroutes were being cleared very well I still saw two cars slide off the road because of the light snow on the carriageway. The drive up the hill to Les Arcs was rather more chaotic! Lots cars stopped in the chainage areas to stick their chains on (not a pleasant process in the dark and the snow), but quite a few drivers continued until they ran out of traction and partially blocked the road because they had to slide backwards to one side of the road where they belated put their chains. It's mad to do this because you can't choose when and where to stop - I'd hate to put chains on just around a blind corner, in the dark with other cars passing me with just few feet to spare on a slippery road. My car is not particularly well suited to driving on snow - quite a big and heavy automatic with fat tyres - but the drive from GVA to the resort was trouble-free. Once again I was pleased with the decision to equip the car with decent winter tyres. It was worth the hassle and expense just for that one journey IMO.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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We spent a morning the other weekend weaving round stranded german and dutch cars on a moutain road as they either stood there staring or tried to work out how chains fitted in -19c
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We were once on a tour ops bus going up to Belle Plagne. The mountain road had been closed much of the day due to the heavy snow. Our driver refused to put on chains. He had to make about five attempts to get up the last stretch - each time sliding back down. I was terrified. Dont know why the rep didnt make him put them on?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bode Swiller,
If you did the same survey in a high mountain resort (e.g. Obertauern) I'd expect more cars would have winter tyres.
When the conditions are really bad or the traffic backs up the police look for non Austrian number plates, stop the vehicles (esp trcuks) and check the tyres. Then follows a fine and an order to stop or put chains on. If the conditions are variable and the chains would damage the road (i.e slush) chains are not legally allowed - then what do you do? It's no coincidence that the cars lying in the ditches at the side of the road in winter or sliding about on steeper roads usually have foreign number plates. They save a few bob on winter tyres, put themselves and others in danger, and cause traffic jams etc for others. Driving a big 4x4 in the alps during winter with summer tyres means you have the longest braking distances and worst cornering ability (heavy & high centre of gravity). The only plus for you is that when you have an accident the people in the other car(s) are less likely to have so much heavy metal around them and are likely to come off worse.
On top of all that when there's an accident the first thing the locals will do is check your tyres - if you haven't got winter tyres on when you should have then you will normally be guilty, irrespective of who caused the crash. The police will then be informed and you will also be fined. Should someone die or be seriously injured you could also be personally legally persued for damages. Insurance companies have been know not to pay out the full amount when cars should have had winter tyres on.
When you don't pays your money (for winter tyres) you take your (and other people) chances. If skiing and driving to the alps is your thing then two wheel drive and winter tyres (or good quality all season tyres) will be far better (and cheaper) than a heavy 4x4 and summer tyres.
Some of my best days on the mountain have been after massives dumps, without winter tyres I wouldn't of been on the mountain those days. (Chains with a speed limit of 30mph would have been too slow).
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Bode Swiller, - look forward to part 2 and analysis of tyre makes?????
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DB, Yes, I think we're all clued up and in agreement with all that but, to play this game, you're just going to have to walk the car parks of Obertauern and feed back. The Dutch especially don't seem to be aware of the form or, presumably, care two hoots. I think your survey findings will be similar to mine.
colinstone, I was so focussed on hunting down the snowflake symbol I failed to spot many makes. There's only so much monkey-like stooping a bloke can do without getting arrested.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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You have to look very b hard for the snowflake symbol. I have just taken delivery of my Vredestein's and the snowflake in a triangle symbol is smaller then a half pence piece. The M&S is quite big though.
One hopes Monsieur Gendarme has passed an eye sight test!!!!!!!
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Timbobaggins, yes, on mine it's as small as my little finger nail. Presumably the cops know where to look.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bode Swiller, What's the helmet situation like on the slopes? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| DB, Yes, I think we're all clued up and in agreement with all that but, to play this game, you're just going to have to walk the car parks of Obertauern and feed back. The Dutch especially don't seem to be aware of the form or, presumably, care two hoots. I think your survey findings will be similar to mine. |
There are better things to do in Obertauern than tyre spotting. Always thought the Dutch were more into winter tyres. http://www.etyres.co.uk/bad-weather-tyres The laws are changing for winter tyres in the German speaking world (where the Dutch like to ski as the language is very similar to theirs) so maybe it won't be so easy for them to ignore the rules in the future.
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I've just fitted Goodyear UltraGrip 7+, which from all the ADAC roadtests etc, are pretty good. Looking forward to the snow.
A few years back I drove from Denver to Aspen late at night in a Fwd Ford Aspire - Focus size, with only 1200cc to power auto transmission, power steering and aircon. Barely enough power to turn the wheels!! - so within a mile or two got the name "Gutless Wonder". On its winter tyres, in the snow and ice it was brilliant and very chuckable. Over some very high pass, lots of 4x4s had forgotten the laws of motion and were in ditches, but GW just sailed on. Also bought some snow cables, rather than chains. Very effective and light and also easy to fit.
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You know it makes sense.
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Snow cables ? I guess the name describes them.
Can you still get them ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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DB,
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There are better things to do in Obertauern than tyre spotting
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You haven't met Bode Swiller, have you
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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After a quick monkey-like stoop of my car park I notices 100% of vehicles with winters... but i knew that anyway as the only car in it is mine at the moment!
Still don't know the make of them though!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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flangesax, monkey-like stooping in car parks around other people's cars is a borderline activity I admit, but doing it in your own car park and where the only victim is your own car, is definitely evidence of someone needing a degree of professional help.
Boredsurfing, I have been to Obertauern and much of the good stooping is to be had underground. Head torch useful. The skiing isn't that exciting there, a bit samey.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm probably going to open an annual can of worms here but here goes anyway:
I'm driving to Kitzbuhel this Feb. I have read the rules and opinions on the web for the past few months now and it does seem slightly open to debate about how far your read into these new laws. I posted on here a few months back and got the feeling there were quite a lot of strongly opinionated views.
This seems to be the most commonly read paragraph:
"Winter tyres are mandatory in Austria. The law states that passenger cars with a permissible maximum weight of up to 3.5 tonnes may be operated only between 1 November and 15 April in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice if winter tyres have been installed on all wheels. All-season tyres are also considered winter tyres if they have the "M + S" mark.
As an alternative to winter tyres, snow chains may be used on at least two driving wheels, however, these may only be used in case the road is covered by a complete or scarcely broken snow cover or sheet of ice. " http://www.etyres.co.uk/winter-tyres-law#austria
So my understanding is that in snow, slush and ice where I can't use my chains because the snow isn't heavy enough I need the winter tyres (or M&S ones). If the roads are clear I don't. If I drive without the tyres in question and I get caught in snow/slush/ice I can't continue my journey, if I do I am breaking the law. If the snow is heavy enough to justify fitting chains I'm ok.
So my question to to Bode Swiller is that when you were monkeying about in the car park, did you generally get the opinion that a lot of people took their chances?
I intend to drive on my normal tyres as they are relatively new and I have two sets of chains (4 wheel drive audi estate car so I need two sets). I am only going to Kitzbuhel so the vast majority of my trip will be on main routes and motorways anyway. I've driven in the French Alps plenty of times, chains are obviously a must and I don't plan on driving like an idiot.
Am I being irrisponsible? Can of worms fully opened.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Can of worms alert, can of worms alert arooooga aroooga.
Dredgey, you have had it mate. No snow tyres, you will be banged up in an Austrian Gaol biting your pillow before you can say Vredestein!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Timbobaggins wrote: |
Can of worms alert, can of worms alert arooooga aroooga.
Dredgey, you have had it mate. No snow tyres, you will be banged up in an Austrian Gaol biting your pillow before you can say Vredestein!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Hahaha! I hear Austrian Prison is almost as cushy as our UK ones?
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dredgey, Reckon you are taking a major flyer here. You'll be fine unless you are involved in an incident and then the Polizei will throw the book at you I suggest. Remember its a 500 mile drive through Germany and the conditions on the Autobahns can be bad particularly in the Stuttgart area if it snows. I have driven to Kitzbuhel many times and you'll not need the chains...............the drive is reasonably flat into town, and the resort is low, unlike France where you climb in the last 10 miles into Kitzbuhel is a very gradual climb and winter tyres are fine. Your quattro with snow chains is a perfect combination, I had a A4 with quattro and with winter tyres it climbed trees!! I'd behaving some Vredstein Wintrac Extremes if it was me.................I do by the way.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Cheers for the response Mark; would be nice to have a set of the Vredstein Wintrac Extremes ... £560 for 4 though (235/40/R18), Ouch!
Anyone on here chanced it or had any situations where they've been fined?
PS I haven't checked my tyres thouroughly in the daylight yet but I assume they won't be M&S ones being the type of car.
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Markymark29, the run up from Kufstein to Söll can be avoided if you buy a 10 day vignette (7.90€) on your way down through Bavaria and drive on to Wörgl on the A12. You then have a very good run up though Westendorf, Brixen in Thale and Kirchberg along the B170 into Kitzbühel from the other side avoiding the steeper climbs and slower road through Scheffau, Ellmau and the St Joahnn in Tirol/ Oberndorf by-pass. There is one short section of steep just after Hopfgarten, but I've never had to use chains on it despite having driven it in some very bad conditions - I have a small FWD light car, but do have winter tyres because I live here!
dredgey, as Markymark29 says, you can risk it and the chances are you will get away with it. But if something does go pear-shaped the police AND your insurers will have a field day at your expense. Your decision, your risk to yourself, your car and your family. Hopefully if anything goes wrong, no other vehicles will be involved.
When road conditions are bad the police will turn you back if they feel you are a danger to the other traffic. Having 2 sets of chains in the car is no guarantee that you know when OR how to use them! I've seen them doing that on the B173 at the roundabout just before you enter the narrow section on the Eibergstrasse above Kufstein. As the traffic is very heavy along the B173 in February, especially at weekends, the police do check vehicles going in both directions along the Eibergstrasse because if that (or the Söll link) are blocked then all hell breaks loose. I had to add nearly 40 minutes to my journey yesterday when 2 HGVs collided head on at 08:00 between Söll and Itter on the link from Wörgl to the B173. That section of road was closed all day according to my friends as they cut the drivers free, and then had to bring in heavy lifting gear to remove the vehicles. I had to back track to Kufstein and more or less retrace my journey all bar the 15 minutes from my house to the Kufstein-Süd motorway exit
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FAQ
