rob@rar, did an edit while you were posting so there may be more you want to comment about.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Masque wrote:
The manufacturers have designed skis for the mass of people who will never challenge themselves to learn the 'sport'. They are learning to use a 'white good' a piece of recreational equipment to give them a good feeling.
So, you have to ask yourself, are you coaching a sport or teaching someone to drive . . . that's the real point in this thread, one that's been completely overlooked
If this thread is about coaching ski racers I shall have to withdraw (because I don't). What I do is help recreational skiers widen their range of ski technique so they can have more fun when on holiday (although some of my clients are progressing to and through ski instructor exams, they are the exception).
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Masque, Stick to boarding, current >27m GS skis carve just fine.
i havent had a chance to read this through properly but IMO the counter you see in the WC racer photos is a Result of long leg short leg on steep terrain and subsequent huge edge angles they achieve. Counter is a bio mechanical consequence of this move and to teach rec skiers to "create" counter causes more problems than teaching people to square up and work on increasing lateral movement. When people Try to counter all i see is old school austrian counter rotation moves that open the hip up and weaken the stance.
A little counter to engage the skis early is a good thing but until your skiing is at the stage that you have active control over your hip joint i dont think trying to counter is a good thing. work on developing big lateral moves, inclination then angulation and counter will happen, strengthening your turns.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar, I'm not being intentionally offensive. I do think that's where there is the divergence of thought on the subject. Very few if any will ever want or need to have a racer's level body movement and positioning and I believe that today's consumer skis play a large part in dictating how you teach. The analogy of coaching a racer to master the conditions as opposed to teaching someone to control their equipment stands. The racer is trying eke out the very final limits of both himself and his kit.
rjs, I'm sure they do but are you riding them or driving them? It's as skimottaret puts it "until your skiing is at the stage that you have active control over your hip joint" are you at the stage where you need to apply 'counter' in your skiing? As a boarder, everything drives from the hips so I'm used to and have control of a large range of hip movement and as an x-gymnast (long 'x') I still have reasonable spacial awareness and comprehension of bio-mechanical and environmental feedback.
Oh, and all four of the disciplines I enjoy contribute to each other, Maybe you should try boarding, you may learn something about skiing
Masque, rjs, can ski pretty well and knows how to drive a ski...
instead of static images how about looking at a decent recreational skier who was taught that counter was a good thing and that you should actively counter in order to carve.
does his skiing look strong and powerful with the exaggerated counter?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
skimottaret, so the progress from forcing his turns to staying on the edges and completing the turn in a carve is just a matter of not countering? You did a lot more work than that particularly I observe in getting him to look further down the hill rather than staring 10 feet in front of his tips. If you look short you'll turn short. I think you're selling yourself short, what else did you work with him on to get him to relax and let the skis run on their edges.
I've never seen rjs ski so it was a genuine question and not just a backhand and I do advocate learning to board as it does teach you a lot about the mechanics of skiing.
Nice video work btw
After all it is free
After all it is free
Masque,
Quote:
look further down the hill rather than staring 10 feet in front of his tips.
That was my first problem when starting to be more square to my skis - a dangerous failure to look where I was actually heading in the medium term!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Masque, we worked on a lot of things over the course of a week but i put him up as he was consciously trying to counter and imo was a key reason he wasnt skiing strongly.
active flex and extend and eye line to the inside of the turn made some improvements but he couldnt quite shake off Fritz from Austria
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
and here is our patient skiing squarer in variable snow conditions that he struggled to ski earlier in the week.
skimottaret,
ha ha, yep the first guy is me, looking 6 feet infront and working so so hard to put it all together, but its all in seperate bits (if you know what i am saying) and i look at relaxed as mr clegg on a lie detector machine - brilliant job - wish you could teach me!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
linso, come along to one of our club weeks in the Alps, be happy to oblige
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Here's my take on the countered/square conundrum.
In skiing, some sort of angulation is often necessary - it is the only way we can increase our edge angle, without having to move our COM further inside our feet.
There are only three ways of achieving angulation:
1. "Knee angulation" (i.e. inward rotation of the femurs) - this is fine for little quick pivoted turns but reduces our ability to resist the greater forces in carved turns because it deprives us of a "long, strong" outside leg.
2. Sideways curvature of the spine - OK as an occasional balancing move, but puts too much stress on the spine to be used as a regular movement pattern.
3. Genuine hip angulation, which is only feasible with a countered alignment of the pelvis and shoulders.
Therefore, I'm with Fastman and Little Tiger; countering is certainly still necessary, in some situations, in today's carved turns.
As always, the devil is in the detail; how much, and at what times during the turn, and in which snow conditions... (For example, in softer snow, less edge angle, and therefore less angulation/countering, is generally required.)
As for the question of "when in the learning process should countering be taught?" - this will vary between coaches/instructors, and I doubt you'll ever get a definitive answer.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Tue 28-12-10 7:41; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
skimottaret wrote:
Masque, rjs, can ski pretty well and knows how to drive a ski...
instead of static images how about looking at a decent recreational skier who was taught that counter was a good thing and that you should actively counter in order to carve.
does his skiing look strong and powerful with the exaggerated counter?
This is similar to how the Swiss teach carving: using inclination and a squared stance. It works pretty well - especially on grippy snow. There are many ways of carving and learning to carve.
At some stage, the ability to increase the edge angle, using hip angulation / countering, is a further skill that can be added to the carving skier's "bag of tools".
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Martin Bell wrote:
At some stage, the ability to increase the edge angle, using hip angulation / countering, is a further skill that can be added to the carving skier's "bag of tools".
Which is exactly the point I'm making. As you say, when the instructor and the skier focuses on this will vary. But if the skier is unable to start the "carve" without pivoting the entry I'd say it's probably too early to be worrying about how much of a countered hip position is being used (or exactly what its purpose is).
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
Martin Bell wrote:
At some stage, the ability to increase the edge angle, using hip angulation / countering, is a further skill that can be added to the carving skier's "bag of tools".
Which is exactly the point I'm making. As you say, when the instructor and the skier focuses on this will vary. But if the skier is unable to start the "carve" without pivoting the entry I'd say it's probably too early to be worrying about how much of a countered hip position is being used (or exactly what its purpose is).
Looking at the video; it must be very early carving as there is a lot of rotation going on in the first two clips; much less so in the final clip; but very little edge angle change; It looks like the skiier is simply transferring mass accross the the skis to change edge; no real "input" from the ankles/knees/hips just moving mass around. I'd expect to see more active input and thus more "shoulders square to the fall line".
I've found that as soon as you start talking about "counter"; pupils start using their shoulders! Even if you talk about moving the hips "counter" shouldewrs still move; best way I have sound is to explain it as "hips stay at rightangles to the fall line and the skis do the work..."...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
scooby_simon, you might want to try 'hips face to outside of the turn' if you are talking about counter. That is not at all the same as right angles to the fall line. At the top of a GS type turn it is actually uphill to counter.
If the shoulders are moving instead of hips try some hands on hips stuff - brain allows the hands a lot more attention than the torso - so using hands for positional feedback will help most people.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
scooby_simon, you might want to try 'hips face to outside of the turn' if you are talking about counter. That is not at all the same as right angles to the fall line. At the top of a GS type turn it is actually uphill to counter.
If the shoulders are moving instead of hips try some hands on hips stuff - brain allows the hands a lot more attention than the torso - so using hands for positional feedback will help most people.
little tiger, I agree; but clients sometimes responed better to absolutes such as the fall line; we know they will not get to right-angles to fall line; but it is , at a baisc level (as the linked video shows) something to aim for; the video is not showing GS turns. If we were looking at a racer (or someone capable) doing GS type turns (with the associated inputs) then the conversation and analysis would be very different.
The video shows very basic attempts at carving.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Actually this thread starts with photos of racers...
and I've given the description of my carving progression as taught by a top level CSCF coach who was working as a provincial race coach and at Aspen/Steamboat/Thredbo as a trainer... which was also the same a that taught to me by a staatliche(my other instructor at the time)... I'm a recreational skier an the progression was similar in all cases... squarish(not square as even then some counter was expected) and then onto countered- with inside half driving forward...
I've NEVER been taught to carve with my hips at right angles to the fall line - only for short turns where some anticipation is useful to help induce a pivot... It would make learning to carve clean arc to arc turns very problematic if I was taught this way. It would also be reasonably uncomfortable to ski anything other than short turns (or very incomplete turns) in this position.
IME incomplete turns are very off putting to the average beginner carver - because the speed itself is already scary without taking away one main mechanism to bleed it off....
I spent yesterday on Black Diamond Verdicts - 132-102-118 mm (170 cm) - riding the frozen dust covered crust of Peaks 8&9 in Breckenridge and while the pistes were almost as good as MK I had a chance to play with his thread subject. I'm on tele bindings so I have to stay reasonably centred over the ski
Stiff Fat skis with ok edges on hard piste, short and mid length carving turns: Initiating the turn using outer toe pressure, and relaxing the down into my boots (it can be done even with just yer toes bolted down), it was not possible to stay square, and just use angulation to keep the whole length of the edge engaged, I could not apply enough edge pressure not to lose either tip or tail at the turn midpoint and go spinning off on ar$e, elbow, ear (delete as appropriate).
This was easily observed in the vast number of skiers on the hill who were carving their turns, predominantly squarish to the skis, good to excellent angulation and smearing the later half of the turn. As soon as they were down in the trees in the slightly softer and grippier (sp?) snow they began to complete the carved through to exit. I also saw lots of old school, ankles bolted together skiing.
So back up through the queue (its' busy here) and time to play: Incept the turn with outer toe pressure. relax down and this time drive the inner hip forward, it's impossible to stay completely square to the skis, BUT it is possible not to turn the shoulders to the same extent as the hips. This time the angulation is easier and I can sense the tips (both of them) tracking cleanly and I've not yet lost the tails. Approaching mid-turn the tails begin to skid so I rise and turn the other way, same problem, I'm not completing the carve and if I bring my weight back I lose the tips (once quite messily )
OK, back up to the crusty stuff, same turn initiation and this time as I approach mid carve I push the inner lead hip even harder . . . and I fold in the middle, poke my ar$se out the back of my sallies and 'yard sale' . . . much to the amusement of a couple of boarders. Try again, only this time I don't let my mass drop through my backside onto my heels and whoohoo a clean short to mid length carve to completion on crust.
I think that where this thread has caused confusion is not just with the differing equipment that racers use but also the more extreme snow conditions they slide on. We do not need large counter contortions to carve cleanly on a nice pisted red, the snow is soft enough to allow a deep enough carve track to be formed that will keep the running surface of the ski(s) in the track without requiring the whole length of the ski's edge to be engaged. But as snow depth decreases to a hard almost impervious surface we cannot carve down it without technique to ensure that we are able to keep the entire edge of the ski in contact and under control.
Anyone can carve a modern ski in good conditions and stay square to the ski, but without additional technique they will not be able to master poorer conditions. Counter is a progression to more control and should be developed as soon as the pupil can complete a carved turn in the 'nice stuff'. I saw way too many people turning sweetly in the lower sections but who were a liability to themselves and others on the crust.
Oh, and these planks don't like bumps They're also proving hard to get under control in tele mode, I can get one ski doing the right thing but not the other at the same time . . . and my boots need fitting
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Masque, so do you still think that counter works by twisting the ski boot so the tail of the ski follows the tip?
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar, the lateral or 'twisting' force is a natural function of placing your body in a 'counter' position and not a deliberate or intentional desire as simply twist steering. Counter is just a way of keeping the whole of the skis edges in controlled contact with the surface. A hard, steep non-malleable surface will require more input from the skier to stay in control on.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Masque, is that a "yes"?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar, Yer a hard man Go and play on some crust, place your body in differing positions and then tell me that body position does not transfer to the snow through the human/boot-ski/snow interface. Anything we do goes through our boots and yes whatever we do to control where one end of a ski is in relation to the other does have to transfer through our boots. I'm a little worried that you may have lost the concept that we as skiing mechanisms are a part of and subject to ALL of the components and not exclusively our bodies. It is a balance of forces, the environment and our equipment responds and/or reacts to our input.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Masque, honestly, a simple yes or no would suffice.
Quote:
I'm a little worried that you may have lost the concept that we as skiing mechanisms are a part of and subject to ALL of the components and not exclusively our bodies. It is a balance of forces, the environment and our equipment responds and/or reacts to our input.
I think I know what you mean by this, and I can assure you that you have no need to be worried because...
Quote:
place your body in differing positions and then tell me that body position does not transfer to the snow through the human/boot-ski/snow interface.
... I use The Force when I'm skiing. What I do with my body is largely irrelevant.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar, You are small and green with a grammatical impediment
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Masque wrote:
rob@rar, You are small and green with a grammatical impediment
A lisping frog?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar, No, you are now a cultural icon.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Masque wrote:
rob@rar, No, you are now a cultural icon.
Excellent! Does that give me extra snowHead privileges?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
Masque wrote:
rob@rar, No, you are now a cultural icon.
Excellent! Does that give me extra snowHead privileges?
Not if Latchico has any influence with the boss
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Masque wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Masque wrote:
rob@rar, No, you are now a cultural icon.
Excellent! Does that give me extra snowHead privileges?
Not if Latchico has any influence with the boss
I really don't think he does
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
i want to share a letter I got from one of my students today, because it's pertinent to this topic. This person just started skiing last season. He's a past hockey player, just taking up skiing. He wrote to me towards the end of last season, with an attached video of his skiing, looking for advice. While parallel, his turns at the time were of the typical beginner V-turn variety, powered with rotation, banked, and aft balanced. I filled him in on what he needed to focus on, so he bought my DVDs and went to work.
Yesterday he sent me an updated video, looking for feedback on his progress. The pivots were gone, the top of his turns now had shape to them, he was center balanced, and his shoulders were level. I responded, spelling out the specifics of his amazing progress for him, and providing a new training plan for the future. When he wrote back to thank me he had one final question, and this is what I want to share with you.
Quote:
Rick,
No video this time, but I do have a couple questions. I have been working on some of the basic edging skills and I notice a couple things. I know there is differences between skiing square, rotated, countered, etc; I feel most comfortable if I lead into a turn with my inside hip...push that side of my hip twords the direction I want to go. It has become somewhat of a default move. I feel like I initiate every turn with the driving of my inside hip to the inside of the turn and forward. I think it is something I'm accustomed to from ice skating, pretty much how you would turn on skates without using a cross over. Is this bad? Should I make a conscious effort NOT to do this?
Thanks!
This was interesting, because he and I had not talked about inside hip drive yet, and there is nothing in my Basic Level DVDs on it either. I save teaching inside hip drive for later in the program, once carving is introduced, but he discovered it anyway, all on his own, and ahead of schedule. Anyway, here was my response.
Quote:
Keith,
Great question. I'm sitting here smiling profusely reading it. The
inside hip drive you're using is a skill component you'll actually see
me teach later on in the program. I teach square at the beginning,
because it's simple to do, and provides a very strong and efficient
stance to use for steering. It also makes non pivoted turn
initiations an easier thing to learn. But the inside hip drive you're
talking about does in fact assist in tipping the skis on edge,
directing pressure to the inside edge of your outside ski, and
providing the counter that allows lateral balancing (via angulation)
to be easily accomplished. If you are already comfortable using
inside hip driving, you're one step ahead of the game. Keep doing it,
it will serve you well, both now, and down the road.
I find that there is a great amount of skill cross over that happens when people come from skating to skiing, and they pick skiing up pretty quickly. This guy is just another example of the experiences I've had with students with extensive skating experience, another of which was a kid who after only a few seasons of skiing, bloomed into one of the top junior racers in the Eastern United States. I hadn't made the connection before about the inside hip drive they use when turning on skates, but now that I do it makes perfect sense that it's a one of the contributing factors as to why the ease of cross over from skating to skiing exists.
I did a little googling, and found this youtube video, that suggests counter and inside hip drive are technical elements of turning taught early on to new skaters.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I had a chance to play with his thread subject. I'm on tele bindings so I have to stay reasonably centred over the ski
They're also proving hard to get under control in tele mode, I can get one ski doing the right thing but not the other at the same time . . . and my boots need fitting 
