 Poster: A snowHead
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For goodness sake, the guy came on here asking for ADVICE, and he gets a public lynching!! He specifically asked if he needed a guide or not, and IMHO, given someone who can ski blacks and who books a guide/instructor can ski La Grave and enjoy it, albeit they maybe sh*gged and
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| tired out after a long squawk |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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kitenski, He did also say he can't carve yet...
The 'vehemence' of the advice given may also deter him from doing something pretty dangerous. Don't think any of it was particulrly harsh though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ok, I have asked about la Grave and it's serverty in the past. Spent a season in ADH and never ended going even though I had the Vamos guide to the area (which I used in ADH and L2A) so perhaps I have been a tad dismisses of leeds_skier, however...
| Leeds_Skier wrote: |
I am wanting to give it a try whilst I'm there but will i have to pay for a guide? Or will there be enough skiers there for me to just tag along with a crowd and follow them to the bottom. Avoiding any unseen crevasses and rock faces along the way if possible.
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Do I need to pay for a guide...?
Will I be ok if I just tag on other skiers...?
Can I avoid any unseen crevasse (with my x-ray vision)...?
The OP is very nieve
or
a troll.
I stand by earlier posts! 
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 20-10-10 23:39; edited 4 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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kitenski, he asked if he could go alone and just "follow others". That was the root cause of the lynching. Granted, there're probably kinder ways of telling hin in no uncertain terms it's a very bad idea.
I think everyone believe his skiing is probably up to it. However, many felt he will probably enjoy it a lot more if he have some more off-piste experience under him. Now, how do you give that kind of advice and not come across as talking him down is an art. And it also depends on his disposition. Seems to me the OP took it pretty good.
All in all, I think the advices here aren't particularly harsh. This is the internet, after all 
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 20-10-10 23:38; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| manicpb wrote: |
Do I need to pay for a guide...? Why pay for something if it isn't neccessary.
Will I be ok if I just tag on other skiers...? It maybe obvious to seasoned off-piste skiers (and regular snowhead who read about this). But it's not obvious for a skier of only a few season.
Can I avoid any unseen crevasse (with my x-ray vision)...? The logic is, well, if I can follow others, I don't need no x-ray vision |
The OP is simply nieve. I don't believe it's a troll
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| abc wrote: |
| manicpb wrote: |
Do I need to pay for a guide...? Why pay for something if it isn't neccessary.
Will I be ok if I just tag on other skiers...? It maybe obvious to seasoned off-piste skiers (and regular snowhead who read about this). But it's not obvious for a skier of only a few season.
Can I avoid any unseen crevasse (with my x-ray vision)...? The logic is, well, if I can follow others, I don't need no x-ray vision |
The OP is simply nieve. I don't believe it's a troll |
I could be out of order so I'll shut up, but I do suspect when people post a question like that with their first post!
Leeds_skier, I apologies for any offence...but get a guide!
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Firstly, my questions were entirely sincere, I didn't post my original message to evoke a reaction or anything like that, but the responses I have had cleared up any doubt in whether a guide is necessary.
You are right in saying I am probably naive, however the last few resorts I have been to I have checked the reviews to get an incite into the best runs in the area. Then when I take on the apparent "difficult" runs the experience is underwhelming and the reviews are over-hyped. This is why I have asked the questions regarding La Grave, I wouldn't want to pay top money for a guide and then realise it was totally unneccesary.
The sarcastic and arrogant remarks were appreciated though thank you.
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brian
brian
Guest
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Leeds_Skier, the La Grave guides do a "découverte" ticket which gets you up the lift and guided down one of the more straightforward routes in a group for a reasonable price.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Leeds_Skier wrote: |
Firstly, my questions were entirely sincere, I didn't post my original message to evoke a reaction or anything like that, but the responses I have had cleared up any doubt in whether a guide is necessary.
You are right in saying I am probably naive, however the last few resorts I have been to I have checked the reviews to get an incite into the best runs in the area. Then when I take on the apparent "difficult" runs the experience is underwhelming and the reviews are over-hyped. This is why I have asked the questions regarding La Grave, I wouldn't want to pay top money for a guide and then realise it was totally unneccesary.
The sarcastic and arrogant remarks were appreciated though thank you. |
Have you thought about skiing in N America?
In many resorts in the US and Canada there is an abundance of challenging, ungroomed terrain within the resort area boundary that is non-glaciated and does not require the services of a guide.
Time spent in this environment with an instructor would give you the necessary skiing skills to tackle places like La Grave with confidence. Your experience would be vastly improved IMHO.
I skied Chamonix in my second winter and whilst I enjoyed it and skied some of the challenging terrain on the Grand Montets when I returnd there this past May with far better ski skills and mountain awareness I was able to ski one of the classic routes with the utmost of confidence and as importantly enjoyment.
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Leeds_Skier, in an attempt to be helpful ( )... skiing la grave with someone good showing you the way, pointing out routes etc can open your eyes to where skiing take you
i remember my first visit to chamonix as a "i can ski any piste" type skier for whom off piste was snow next to the pistes. hanging round with some seasonnaires who pointed out lines they had abseiled into etc and doing the vallee blanche really opened my eyes to the fact that if it has snow on it, some nutter will ski it; but also that there is almost unlimited challenge in the mountains if you use a bit of imagination and learn some new techniques.
so... line yourself up with a guide or instructor and ask them to point out things like the Triffides Couloirs, the Pan de Rideau, the Y-grec Couloir, the Col de la Meije and L'Enfetchores - lines to dream (or have nightmares) about!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| brian wrote: |
| Leeds_Skier, the La Grave guides do a "découverte" ticket which gets you up the lift and guided down one of the more straightforward routes in a group for a reasonable price. |
Sounds like just the thing!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kitenski, I believe the OP got off relatively lightly by persisting with very naive and even downright daft questions even when gently steered away from his original ambition (I'm still not convinced it isn't a troll). A simple search or any level of basic awareness would have confirmed recommended advice re any transceivers, safe off piste protocol etc. If he is genuine then I really think he has no awareness of what La Grave is really like and would be better off cutting his teeth offpiste in L2A or Alpe D'Huez etc.
That said I think the best approach would be to take one of those discovery trips brian linked to or an organised trip with a L2A ski school
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Trolls (like their ancestors) are rarer than some people seem to think.
manicpb, to sum up:
There are no pistes at La Grave and thus no signposts or markers, so you have to take your own decisions about avalanche danger on any route and the likely-hood of there being difficult snow (breakable crust etc), and will have to do your own route finding. The many cliffs become relevant here.
Some routes are of the literally "fall and you die" type. The majority are tougher than any piste. A couple of them are quite easy, unless the snow is cr*p, and you'll think "What was all the fuss about". The point is that, unless you know the place well, you can't be sure of not missing your way, even in good visibility.
If you go with a proper UIAGM guide he will be able to take you to more of the area (including routes accessed across the glacier), but if you just want to have a taster a ski school group will be fine.
I don't have any good La Grave pics, but the sort of thing in this old photo is fairly common at La Grave:
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You know it makes sense.
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snowball, i love this pic taken by haggis_trap of the traverse into the Pan de Rideau:
not that you'd do that on your first day in LG!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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^ that gives me the (good) fear just looking at it. Very cool
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Haggis_Trap, and look what happened to him - nacked his shin* followed by extended lay-off!
*once he'd rejoined the Vallons run to be fair
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
LG is awesome - A real mecca and maybe the best ski lift in the world ?
In good weather *experienced* off piste skiers should have no problem doing the classic Vallons and Chancel routes on their own.
But like any place local knowledge really helps to find the best skiing - and also stay safe. It really is a BIG mountain with so many subjective dangers. |
I agree with most of that, although even though I have stayed in La Grave five times now and can probably call myself what you describe as an "experienced" off piste skier, I have yet to try Vallons or Chancel on my own and would have to think long and hard before doing so. I feel it would have to be in perfect visibility because in poor light it would be quite easy to make a mistake. The other consideration is that despite its worldwide reputation, the number of people skiing there on most days, weekends apart, is usually quite small, therefore putting aside avalanche and terrain problems for a moment, a more conventional accident such as wrecking your knee in a fall, could mean that you could be stuck for hours without rescue.
I was told by a local guide that in the last twenty years, about twenty people had died in La Grave. More people have probably died say in Val d'Isere/Tignes in that time, but the total number of people skiing in La Grave is minute by comparison.
If some of the advice given in this thread has been a bit forceful then when it comes to safety that may not be a bad thing. I have lead a number of people off piste for the first time myself over the years and have heard so many people describe themselves by saying something like they are "decent intermediate" and that they can "get down most things". Unfortunately most of those people do not know what "most things" can entail.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Arno wrote: |
snowball, i love this pic taken by haggis_trap of the traverse into the Pan de Rideau:
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Great picture. Makes me want to go ski LG even more after seeing that!!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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richjp, I think more people ski Espace Killy in a day than la Grave in a year-
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Haggis_Trap, Are those pictures of the conventional routes down? How long does it take to do a full decent if you stick to the "track" and keep to a reasonable pace?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| snowball wrote: |
manicpb, to sum up:
There are no pistes at La Grave and thus no signposts or markers, so you have to take your own decisions about avalanche danger on any route and the likely-hood of there being difficult snow (breakable crust etc), and will have to do your own route finding. The many cliffs become relevant here.
Some routes are of the literally "fall and you die" type. The majority are tougher than any piste. A couple of them are quite easy, unless the snow is cr*p, and you'll think "What was all the fuss about". The point is that, unless you know the place well, you can't be sure of not missing your way, even in good visibility.
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I think you meant Leeds_skier, but thanks for the advice!
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Handsome tele turn there:
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Leeds_Skier, that depends on how good you are, how fast you go and what the conditions are like. There isn't any answer to the question really.
This thread has degenerated into a load of willy-waving again. There is at least one route down at La Grave which isn't necessarily more difficult than the average red run (can't be because I've skied it). You do, however, need a guide - nothing is signposted and you risk getting lost/falling down a hole/ending up on something you can't cope with. And apart from all that, a guide will know the conditions and help you make the best of your day.
If you're in 2Alpes in April the link between the two resorts will be open (weather permitting) so access to La Grave will be free with a 2Alpes pass for six days or more. Show your pass at the main lift office to get a ticket for the chenillette which takes you over there. Be warned that you have to walk back over the top to the 2Alpes side at the end of the day.
To book a guide, join a group or contact an instructor to take you over there, try the following:
http://www.easiski.com/
http://www.europeanskischool.co.uk/
http://www.guides2alpes.com/
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Leeds_Skier,
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Are those pictures of the conventional routes down? How long does it take to do a full decent if you stick to the "track" and keep to a reasonable pace?
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There isn't one 
LG is absolutely my favourite place to ski. For the first time you go there, YOU NEED A GUIDE !!!
There are no pistes, and therefore no piste markers. The most obvious way down will have you walking to the village because the snow has run out. You will then find out that the lift has shut because it's too late in the day, and you'll need a taxi to get back to Les Deux Alpes.
There are no pistes, no markers and no signs. This is partly what makes it such a great place for experienced skiers...
I am sure you will enjoy it. But, please, take a guide.
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Have you thought about skiing in Scotland?
At Nevis Range and Glencoe there is an abundance of challenging, ungroomed terrain within the resort area boundary that is non-glaciated and does not require the services of a guide. CairnGorm has loads of serious off-piste outside the resort boundary and Glenshee has some tasty off-piste too. Mountain rescue and hospital care are covered by our taxes in case of accident!
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It's a bit closer to Leeds!
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You know it makes sense.
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Apologies for the willy waving - must keep the fly done up.
Just making the point that La Grave has some great skiing, and is well worth a visit.
Despite the reputation its not all extremo...
However -
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| Are those pictures of the conventional routes down? How long does it take to do a full decent if you stick to the "track" and keep to a reasonable pace? |
There is no track... For sure the skiing in the main valleys could be technically quite easy.
BUT the numerous dangers are objective and very real.
Avalanches, navigation, slipping in an icy couloir, cliffs, glacier travel, bad weather...
This is what should actually be concerning you - not the technical difficulty of the skiing.
Some good links above for guided groups etc ...
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| so access to La Grave will be free with a 2Alpes pass for six days or more |
used to be only monday to friday - not at weekends.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think I'm done with this thread.
I thought the OP was just un-informed due to lack of exposure to the larger picture of off-piste skiing. But the last question shows he doesn't seem to understand what everybody is saying. Well, that would explain why he's un-informed and probably will remain so for quite a long while... We're just wasting our time with the "advice"!
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Poster: A snowHead
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abc, Which bit don't you get? Maybe if you re-read the OP's last question in a slightly more open-minded way, you might see that the questions (whilst admittedly not phrased terribly well) are really quite straightforward.
There have been numerous mentions of 'easier routes down' by several posters. Leeds_Skier deliberately used inverted commas around the word "track", presumably to indicate his understanding that this was not a marked track and was perhaps referring to one of the easier routes down?
Then - were the pictures posted above of the afore-mentioned 'easier routes down'? Quite a simple question really, can't see there's any offence to be taken with that one. 
And finally how long does it take to go down? He's even made it clear that he's asking for an average timescale of the straightforward route down. Perfectly acceptable question IMV. i.e. should he allow a half hour/half day/full day/get up at sparrow fart to ensure he makes it back in daylight? Since he has no idea of the terrain or indepth knowledge of the area then it's a perfectly logical question.
Lizzard was spot on with the willy-waving comment and then went on to provide the OP with some really good advice. She was a lot politer than I would have been about it, all I've seen in this thread is a new sH being patronised, accused of trolling, taken the p*ss out of and then generally misunderstood in order to achieve more of the same. 
I'm a piste skier, not a very experienced one at that. I would love to ski LG or any of the places that you guys ski - I admire what you can do and I love to read about it. But there are times when I'm quite glad to know that I will never reach those levels, particularly if it's likely to turn me into a smug, patronising git whose idea of supporting the up and coming is to strip chunks off them if they dare to ask for advice on something they have no knowledge or experience of.
And then you all wonder why you get asked the same mundane questions over and over again? Because of threads like this FFS
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Depending on ones definition of "track". As mentioned above - "times" will vary as to conditions, skill level, sanity gradient and mode of transport, more here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Schuss in Boots, you're trying to tell me, a piste skier like you and OP just don't understand what a "route" means???
A route is a concept that, when you stand on a featureless snow field, one imaginary line is safer than the rest of the snow field.
There's no such thing as a "track", even in quotes (I believe that's what those "inverted commas" are called ).
In many of the off-piste area I've skied, there're MANY such "tracks", each leading to different "routes", some easy, some impossible without taking a leap of faith in thin air... The only distinction of these different "routes" might be a certain angle with regard to an un-named landmark: a rock of a certain shape!
If you're an avid hill walker with excellent navigational ability, you maybe able to transfer SOME that ability to the snowy world. Otherwise, you'll just have to ski outside of the pisted area enough with guides, all the while paying attention to why the guides are going where he goes, till you gain enough experience in finding safe routes.
People who ski only on piste tend to use pistes and lifts as landmarks. They can always come back to the piste. But once you're out of sight of the piste and the related structures, one pointy rock looks just like the next. What's "easy to follow" by someone who had done a fair bit of off-piste skiing may get super-confusing for someone who's never left the pisted part of the mountain.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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abc, I'm sure I will. There's a lot of them scary crevasse thingies on the blue runs at La Plagne.... although they're usually quite easy to spot... attached as they are to overweight snowboarders parked on the piste...
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abc, your post bears absolutely no relation whatsoever to Schuss in Boots' previous post. Your points are not without merit, they're merely beside the (her) point. And as for this:
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I'm sure you'll be relishing that superiority at the bottom of a crevasse.
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quite apart from it being a remarkably unpleasant thing to say, it also is meaningless given that Schuss in Boots had expressly said she was a piste skier.
In short, what on earth are you going on about? 
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Hurtle, the point, which doesn't seem obvious to Schuss in Boots , is the OP keep asking question about the "easiest route" in such a tone that one can simple ski down it as though it's a un-pisted itenery! (Bear in mind, the OP doesn't know what a avi beacon is yet)
Schuss in Boots insist that's an innocent question. I do not believe that is. Not after 2 pages of posts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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abc,
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the OP keep asking question about the "easiest route" in such a tone that one can simple ski down it as though it's a un-pisted itenery!
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I don't infer that from the OP's posts at all, a route is any route from A to B, not one which - like an itinerary (sic) - is usually represented by something like a dotted line on a map. What other word is there to signify a method of getting from A to B? And his use of the word 'track' was, as Schuss in Boots said, put in inverted commas precisely because he realised himself that the word was not really appropriate.
I don't think the OP is trolling, and he has admitted to being naive. I think you should get off his case. Luckily, he is also receiving some civil and helpful advice on this thread.
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FAQ
