 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi,
I'm wanting a bit of help in making a decision on whether or not to ski La Grave and if so the best way to go about it.
I've had about 10 weeks ski experience and consider myself to be a fairly decent skier (can carve when the conditions are suitable, however struggle to find my edge as well on large moguls and slush).
I have a week booked in Les Deux Alpes next april as part of a large party but I don't think any of them will want to give La Grave a try with the apparent danger attached to it (although 1 or 2 might do with the right amount of persuasion).
Are these warnings just standard with it being entirely off piste, or is this mountain in a league of its own?
I am wanting to give it a try whilst I'm there but will i have to pay for a guide? Or will there be enough skiers there for me to just tag along with a crowd and follow them to the bottom. Avoiding any unseen crevasses and rock faces along the way if possible.
Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Welcome to snowheads Leeds_Skier, have you done much off piste skiing yet? If not I'd probably pick somewhere slightly less committed than La Grave to get yourself some experience in with a guide or perhaps do a course before thinking about venturing there.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Leeds_Skier, Welcome to Snowheads, I've done it once myself but with a local ski instructor. Although there is an "easy" route I know it would be very easy to take the wrong route and it could be disastrous. Some of the ski schools in Les Deux Alpes (ie European Ski School and probably others) do guided day tours, you don't have to hire a guide yourself. Probably the best option
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Welcome to snowheads. Do a search for plenty of info on La Grave. I 'd want to be fairly confident on my edges going to La Grave and it is a bg mountain to get lost on etc or have to handle a very bumpy traverse out to P1 from either side. You'll definitely need a guide or an instructor from L2A who knows their way around as just following the group in front could lead you to a rappel only couloir or worse. That said its not all gnarly but no-one credible would ever advise you to rock up on your own and follow the crowds.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've done bits, wouldn't say i go out and seek off piste when im on holiday, but if i come across a patch I tend to chose that route rather than the congested piste.
I know from experience that videos rarely tell the entire story of the terrain and gradient of a slope, however the ones i have seen online of La Grave don't exactly look out of my comfort zone (aside from the guy who thinks it would be a good idea to navigate through a rock field at 80mph)
But i appreciate what your saying in the fact that once you are committed to that particular mountain you cant exactly de-tour and join onto the piste if the going gets tough.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Leeds_Skier, Your skiing is probably up to it, I'm not exactly a ski god and I struggled down. I would enquire at the European Ski School if your mates aren't wanting to form a group to book your own guide. If you look at my ski photos linked below there is a La Grave set. You will see that many of our party were kids (who were better skiers than the adults  ) but we had a local instructor guiding us.
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I've never skied La Grave myself. But I've skied off-piste a fair bit and have played the game of "lets follow that group" in unknown terrain. My observation:
1) It's one thing to do a few hundred yards of off-piste, quite another to do 2000 metre of it with not bail out. And when you're trying to "follow" a crowd, you might have to keep moving even when you're tired.
2) Somewhat related to 1 above, if you're not proficient off-piste, you may not be able to "follow" closely to a group moving at a good clip. In glacier terrain, 20 yards off to the side might not be safe...
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Cheers guys,
I did check a few different websites before actually asking the questions on this forum. I was always leaning towards getting a guide for the day as i have been known to make rash decisions on the slopes, usually resulting in me having to cart my skis 100m back up slope after realising my chosen route has taken me totally in the wrong direction.
So I guess this has swung it.
Would i need one of those avalanche GPS machines? Or is that an un-needed expense?
Colin B:
Did you just get the instructor for the one day to take you on La Grave? If so how much did it cost?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Leeds_Skier wrote: |
Would i need one of those avalanche GPS machines? Or is that an un-needed expense?
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Now this is a troll surely?
The technical term is Studfinder or Avalanche Bacon.
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Leeds_Skier, It was a friend, a local instructor, who was teaching the kids anyway and took us all.
To rent tranceivers etc, go to Ski Extreme, they will rent you a pack with everything by the day.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I would say you're not ready for it.
There's plenty of off-piste in L2A to keep you more than happy.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Would i need one of those avalanche GPS machines? Or is that an un-needed expense?
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Dude, really?!
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| clarky999 wrote: |
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Would i need one of those avalanche GPS machines? Or is that an un-needed expense?
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Dude, really?! |
Really, he doesn't need it.
Beacons are for others in the group to find you, or you to find your mate when they got buried by avalanche. If he's planning on travelling alone, there'll be no one around to dig him out, nor anyone needing his service.
I don't know the area to say if it's even wise to ski alone. So whether to carry a beacon or not is secondary.
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You know it makes sense.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Leeds_Skier wrote: |
Would i need one of those avalanche GPS machines? Or is that an un-needed expense?
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Now this is a troll surely?
The technical term is Studfinder or Avalanche Bacon. |
The European Ski School in Deux Alpes provided transceivers (but nothing else) to group members that didn't bring their own when I went with them on a 'risk 4' day in Spring. They also got everyone wanting to join a day group on the Thursday to ski a few hundred metres vertical of steep and crappy, tracked out muck, bits of powder and gloop and finally through a few bushes & trees on the way down to L2A village last thing on the Tuesday. They watched for those having a hard time of it and weedled out about 1/3 of the hopefuls.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Leeds_Skier, have you got an iPhone? You can get this.
Not all of the skiing is uber-gnarly in la Grave, as you note, getting lost could be. You sound like you could easily go over with an instuctor or guide for a day to see the place. If you choose a guide over instructor make sure to tell them that you're 7/10 on the UK scale and a 3/10 on the Euro scale, or average it out and call it a 5/10. Enjoy, it's one of the most beautiful places I have ever been.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Leeds_Skier, I did it many years ago and simply joined a group, set up by the local guide company. I think you will be fine getting down there in a guided or instructed group, but I wouldn't go on your own.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Leeds_Skier wrote: |
| I've done bits, wouldn't say i go out and seek off piste when im on holiday |
Then why do you want to ski la Grave?
It's not for you mate, go ski with your mates in L2A!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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manicpb, nice response - not ! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Libertine, seems spot on to me.
Leeds_Skier, It's a fun place and I hope you get to ski there sometime. The main thing you will need if you go there is a guide, or someone who really does know the area.
If you try following another guided group, at a distance they are quite likely to tell you to go away in no uncertain terms. No one wants someone they don't know and don't trust skiing just above them in Avalanche prone terrain. Also sometimes they will ski a route which takes them to a place where they may be picked up by a minibus rather than the bottom of the hill.
Lastly - if you need to ask what kit you need to take you probably are not quite ready yet.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Libertine wrote: |
| manicpb, nice response - not ! |
???
I'm one of the first to tell people not to listen to the oldies on here but in this case he has stated he usually has no interest in off piste so I'm struggling to see his interest in la Grave. There are some good off piste routes at L2A which are in view of the pistes should something go wrong or even better at ADH!
In fact for a constructive comment I'd say if you want a day away from L2A head over to ADH and follow someone off piste there. At la Grave there is a chance you wont get found at the end the day, at ADH as long as you can crawl back to the piste you will get found!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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parlor,
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Leeds_Skier, have you got an iPhone? You can get this.
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Very funny however, please look at the date on the bottom of the Wildsnow posting before you read any of the article.
and over on the Italian side of the Alps they have had problems with the Spaghetti harvest this year because of the cold spell in Sept.
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posted this a while back
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just back from la Grave after skiing Friday-Sunday.
Skiing at La Grave is not like other lift accessed off piste.
1. There is no easy option at all.
2. The 'normal routes' Chancel and Vallons whilst marked on the map are not marked or signed on the mountain they are not 'itinerary runs'. Chancel starts of on a glacier- with unmarked cravasses. It leads to the Chancel Refuge but to get there you have do some really very tricky skiing and traverse across a very steep slope. Vallons starts down some steep slopes and you need to keep clear of the 'chutes de glace'- the serac falls. Both require skiing what are hardest tracks I have ever seen- narrow- rutted/ bumped up with roots/rocks and tree branches. Impossible to relax without a fall and injury (and these are the flat bits). Then steep bumps to the bottom. This is all without going anywhere near any of the couloirs. Actually you can't relax anywhere.
3. If you don't like it- tough! Skiing off piste often means an easy ski back to a piste - or a shortish section of vertical 300-500m or so. If you don't like it then just keep going it will all be OK- not here - if you don't like it tough! If you get out at the top (3200m) then the next stop is 800m below the full package is now 3200m-1450m (sadly the top lifts are out of action due to massive rock fall on the Trifides poma) without human powered ascent.
4. Following other people is a really bad idea. Quite often folk ski off piste with a vague idea of where they are going- following what appears to be the 'beaten track'. This plan- whilst obviously flawed usually works on the basis that 'I'm really quite a good skier- if lots of people have been down here I'll be ok' This logic does not apply at La Grave. If this is your first visit then chances are that (almost) everyone around you is much much better than you and most will be quite happy to ski 45' couloirs/abseil into something even steeper and have all the kit in their rucksacs.
5. The snow may be very tricky/cut up/bumped.
I found it fantastic fun- but very hard work. Perhaps using new skis for the first time was a mistake- Line Prophet 90s which are stiff and very unforgiving (unlike my Foils which are a doddle to ski off piste and allow all sorts of errors to go unpunished) but by the end of the first day- with about 6000m I was completely knackered- a big fat sweaty mess- enough steam to heat a small town and with legs that would not turn.
Get fit- very and if like me you carry a stone or two then loose it.
On a positive note
1. Very friendly place- if you see someone on the mountain / talk to them in the gondela then the chances are you will see them again- at the huts or in the bar later. If they are from the UK and you talk enough you'll find that know people in common. If you have chatted to other folk in the resort- they will know them- it really is very friendly.
2. The skiing is fantastic! But demanding.
3. Food on the mountain is excellent- especially at Chancel and very good value - Vacherin Mont D'Or with lots of spuds, salad and jambon cru €18- compared with a horrid tartiflet and mangeld salad at the same price in a 'self' at Le Rossiere earlier this year was a total bargain. Other very good meals such as chicken liver salad with walnuts €12.
4. Great places to stay (Edelwise)
5. Free skis!! Edelwise has a Black Diamond test centre- where they let you try skis- for a day or more for free- and not just any skis- really good ones- with touring bindings and skins and if they have your size boots as well- gratis.
6. Free cups of tea!! At the gondela mid-station- fantastic!! |
I really think you should do a little more off piste first and have a basic idea of what safe travel might require. But it is a fantastic place to be but it really must be respected. When I last went the first thing I learnt after breakfast was that the previous day a German man- almost exactly my age with 2 kids- just like me, had fallen to his death the previous day and that was why the other group at were very quite. That kind of thing is quite common and it does not sit well in the mind when trying to make some turns or do a tricky traverse.
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Depending on conditions, just joining the main slope from the top of the gondola can be quite a trick - icy moguls leading to a left turn (to which you must commit) on to a rather icy traverse on a (I'm guessing) 35° slope. Can be the toughest part of the run if you are skiing Vallons, IMV.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If they are doing it in english this winter it's worth going along to the Free Respect Avalanche Awareness talk in Les Deux Alpes while you are there. I went a couple of years ago and it was very interesting and informative.
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I think you should give it a miss unless you go with a guided group. There are a couple of easy ways down, but even the very tough ways are much skied so following people down or following a tracked route is no guarantee you won't arrive at a point where a fall could be fatal. There are a large number of very good skiers who ski here and even though I am a good skier there are routes here which are too much for me. On top of this, what will you do if you get in a white-out (perhaps if cloud comes down)? In bright sunlight I once mistook my way and nearly skied off a 200 metre cliff (had a really scary time trying to get back to an OK slope). Even a ski teacher who is not a guide cannot take you on a large part of the mountain because the start is across a glacier.
Can you ski breakable crust if that is what you find? I very much doubt it.
Find a guided group and you will be taken to the easier routes that your guide is confident you can ski. You won't be faced by the loads of tough ways down which you cannot.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| abc wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Would i need one of those avalanche GPS machines? Or is that an un-needed expense?
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Dude, really?! |
Really, he doesn't need it.
Beacons are for others in the group to find you, or you to find your mate when they got buried by avalanche. If he's planning on travelling alone, there'll be no one around to dig him out, nor anyone needing his service.
I don't know the area to say if it's even wise to ski alone. So whether to carry a beacon or not is secondary. |
If you get caught in an avalanche whilst skiing alone with a beacon, there is still a (albeit small) chance that another group/guide may have seen the incident and come over to try and dig you out. If you have no beacon that chance is gone. Even if no-one does get to you in time, you're family may appreciate getting the body back.
I'm also quite suprised that some who obviously has very little offpiste/mountain safety knowledge would consider going somewhere like La Grave alone (not that I know the area either). I don't mean to be nasty with that, everyone started from the beginning once, but safety first and all that...
Obviously if you go witha guide they'll proved a transciever, so you don't need to buy one if that's what the OP meant.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| Leeds_Skier wrote: |
Would i need one of those avalanche GPS machines? Or is that an un-needed expense?
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Now this is a troll surely?
The technical term is Studfinder or Avalanche Bacon. |
The European Ski School in Deux Alpes provided transceivers (but nothing else) to group members that didn't bring their own when I went with them on a 'risk 4' day in Spring. They also got everyone wanting to join a day group on the Thursday to ski a few hundred metres vertical of steep and crappy, tracked out muck, bits of powder and gloop and finally through a few bushes & trees on the way down to L2A village last thing on the Tuesday. They watched for those having a hard time of it and weedled out about 1/3 of the hopefuls. |
This will probably be the best option for me. One of the pros to make the decision on my ability to ski La Grave on observation!
In respeonse to why I'd want to ski La Grave is because I have heard it is the most challenging in the area. The same applied to 'the Wall' in Avoriaz last year. One can soon get bored with the repetition of going up and down red and black pistes filled with ski schools and Boarders. The images I have seen of La Grave show vast open slopes with only a handful of skiers on, that is the main reason I want to ski it!!!
And I'm not overly worried in my ability to get down in one peice, as long as there is someone showing me the way down I'm fairly confident that I'll be able to ski it.
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You cannot compare La Grave with the 'Wall' at Avoriaz.
Go to L2A, take a lesson and get feedback from the instructor to see if you have the skills and mountain savvy to tackle La Grave.
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You know it makes sense.
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Is this a wind up ? (Or some clue-less joey posting under a new name ?)
For sure the skiing might be technically easy... Assuming the snow is good you know the easier routes down (which you dont!).
But can you also read a map ? Assess the snow, avalanche & weather conditions ? Ski any type of off-piste snow ? Ski safely on a glacier ? Navigate in the mist ?
All of these additional skills take time and experience to develop.
Take a ski instructor or guide - you will have a much better / safer day.
And you should learn a few things 
As others have said, la Grave is a wonderful place - but its also no place to get out of your depth.
Many of the accidents / incidents involve people crossing over from L2A to follow tracks.
Worst case scenario is this...
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0810-mystery-of-dead-skiers-la-grave/
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 20-10-10 11:47; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Plenty of tough, steep, patrolled, generally unpisted, runs in L2A which you can try yourself out on when you arrive. L'Y, Grand Couloir and Sapins come to mind.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Been posted elsewhere recently, but in case you missed it, this video is pretty epic and wortha watch.
http://vimeo.com/15315278
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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re following other skiers - others have made the point about how that can lead you somewhere where you need mountaineering equipment or a heli to get out. the other point is that it is just not cool to do this. if i see someone alone who looks like they are following me, i generally take a rest stop and let them ski on. i don't want to act as an unpaid guide and feel responsible if they find themselves somewhere they can't handle
if they actually ask whether they can tag along, i might say yes if i am not planning anything too interesting and they look like they can handle it. i would say yes if i thought they might kill themselves if they don't have a helping hand, although in those circumstances I would take them straight to the nearest lift station and put them on a lift back down to the valley 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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^ yup.
My mate (G.) spent all of last winter in LG.
A group of Les 2 Alpes punters on a day trip followed them to the La Voute abseil.
Punters obviously had no rope... got stuck. Local guide had to call a heli for them.
Apparently it happens 3 or 4 times every winter.
The Vamos guide book should give those (already experienced with off piste skiing / taking responsibility in the mountains) a good idea of what to expect.
If you think your capable of going to La Grave alone then make sure to get this book.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
You cannot compare La Grave with the 'Wall' at Avoriaz.
Go to L2A, take a lesson and get feedback from the instructor to see if you have the skills and mountain savvy to tackle La Grave. |
^^ This. The Wall is a punter run with no real objective hazard and you are very close to rescue if something does go wrong. LG is definitely in a different league. If you can ski the fall line with reasonable style down the wall you may have the right ability level but something tells me you are more of the "i can get down that" type of skier. If you just want bragging rights about having skied La Grave you probably won't be getting the best out of the experience.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| A group of Les 2 Alpes punters on a day trip followed them to the La Voute abseil. |
no doubt they didn't read the sign which says you must have mountaineering equipment to go past this point! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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fatbob, +1
There is a huge difference between getting down something alive, and skiing it safely and reasonably well.
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Leeds_Skier, alternatively- just ski/walk accross from L2A and go for it. No guide , no map, no GPS beacon thingy, no shovel, no probe, no mates.
Give evolution a chance.
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livetoski, good to see you're awake.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Leeds_Skier,I would get a guide, no disrespect , first rule of off piste is you work as a team , i.e you are not on your own , secondly it is a bit like follow my leader , but at safe intervals/distance so you dont endanger each other , also if something happens others are in a safe location and can spot where the skier/boarder (did i say that( ) has got into difficulty.
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FAQ
