 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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CEM, I've done a few of the Salomon courses but understood they are only valid for 1 year ? I have to say, even when 'current' I try and avoid mucking about with bindings for clients at all costs.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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david@mediacopy, not sure if it is a year or if it is more, as they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm not an instructor but can't believe I'm the only person to have had to help out friends on hire or borrowed skis with a little resetting of the forward pressure or BSL during the day. Worst example was my brother who'd put his own skis on for a service in Whistler overnight. First mildly testing run he double superman ejected out of tem? The reason? The tech had cranked the DIN down to 1 as he hadn't completed the bit on his service sheet (because it wasn't needed for an edge & wax!). Triumph of cover your ass over common sense.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob, there in lies the difference, you are not partaining to be an instructor or doing it to the skis of a paying client, if your brother or friends choose to sue you then it would be a bit weird
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Go to a resort that involves a lot of walking ! Zermatt and Saas Fee are good for this although the long journeys from the base stations up to the slopes may negate the morning warm up.
At Yad Moss its a steep 10 minute walk up from the car park and we seem to get very few ligament injuries. At Raise its an hours walk and 1500' of acent necessitating a sit down before skiing! I think injuries are very rare but its not the place to start if you are a raw begginer !
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CEM, Sure I understand the professional risk and probably wouldn't do it if I was acting in a professional capacity, though I admire easiski for her practical approach to the issue. In the field guides must also have to adjust bindings on occasion as a matter of practicality and it would be onerous for them to maintain current certification in every binding type.
The example I quote of the tech adjusting down a acceptably set DIN to one that was downright dangerous, presumably due to a liability policy determined by the shop he was working at is just nonsensical in any practical sense.
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fatbob, the big thing is that an instructor has pretty much the entire burden of duty of care.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| fatbob, the big thing is that an instructor has pretty much the entire burden of duty of care. |
So if you had a class at say the top of White Pass and someone's rental track binding slipped - you'd have to download the entire class or call and wait for a sled rather than fix it? I suppose practically you'd hope one of the class would fix it themsleves.
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fatbob, I'll always try and get a kids ski back on... not very observant to bindings, they just seem to stay on a bit better if I can clip the kid's boot in myself  With adults, I'd have a look and point out that the binding has slipped, and usually they'd try and fix it themselves. If it doesn't look right I'll warn them. If it looks OK I don't think it's worth saying anything... If it's properly broken for anyone, yeah, Patrol and pass the person off. Patrol are at the top of WP and Bear so never far away in Fernie luckily.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Ignoring the 'ski/din setting is to blame' for a minute, I do think beginner injuries are partly due to lack of good instruction and the personality of the learner.
Pretty much every year I go on a mixed ability group holiday and there are always a couple of beginners. One beginner had a pretty poor first day experience with ESF, who took her on a busy slope, too steep for her beginner ability. She was terrified to traverse the slope, and even more scared of falling. Not because she was afraid of falling as such, but afraid that if she fell someone would ski into her. This made her very tense, and she tended to do a few of those slow crumple falls, with the skis not releasing. It took quite a bit of work to undo what had happened in her first 2 hours skiing.
Another beginnerish friend of mine is the typical 'I only had lessons in my first week' skiier, and a few weeks on she is still fairly lacking in confidence. Although she has a few weeks on snow, she is terrified of falling, and when she does fall she tenses and panics, which causes legs and arms to flail about, hence leading to various injuries of knee and shoulder from different falls. She doesnt ski very fast or aggressively. She is relatively fit, mid thirties and fairly aggressive at other sports (hockey, running, etc). I am guessing that in part, her fear of falling is due to having never fallen for years, little tuition and her mental attitude ('they are all better/faster than me'). Obviously her fear of falling is now backed up by some nasty injuries, which does put her off a little. She really loves skiing, being out in the mountains but hates the fear!
I remember my first lessons. I was lucky to have had a great austrian ski instructor, who took her time with each person, and she made us do lots of silly things to get over falling, fear of the fall line, etc. She also showed us the best ways to get back up and clipped in, which I notice not all ski instructors in all countries do. Falling was part of the learning prossess, and no big deal. It was FUN!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hi Here is my £0.02 worth:-
It isn't as simple as "Don't touch the pupils' bindings".
I have found that Pre-release in rental skis is mostly due the the length adjustment slipping. I am happy (as a Ski Teacher who hasn't got a formal Binding Tech qual) to do that job on the hill.
You simply re-set the slipped setting to be the same as the good one. Usually, no tools are required.
Wrong Din:
If there was an error made in the shop - it has to go back to the shop. There may be another reason the ski was set that way (Like it's stuck somewhere else and they set it low to "make do" instead of fixing it or replacing it. In that case, your decision to adjust the defective binding will compound the negligence).
"EasiSki" "Taking them off-piste".
That's more risky than resetting DINs. I wouldn't even think about it if they were on nursery skis.
Is there a proper system of documenting?
Even if you stay on-piste there needs to be a sophisticated system. Plus, I think any equipment adjustment the Ski Teacher deems necessary for group safety on the mountain should take precedence to whether or not the ski teacher has had a box ticked for Ski Tech-ing.
Practical Example
So on Day 1 issue the bindings are set for the nursery slope and on day 5 you have to ski in deep snow - Or last run down in mashed potato. Unless the bindings are adjusted for the new conditions in the shop every night, and there is a proper list of Customer name, Customer height and weight, Ski settings Boot length and DIN, Adjustment day, Piste conditions, Customer skiing standard, Adjusted by - :- who is going to prove *what* you did if you "Touch the skis"?
CTA
Companies Covering Their Asses at the expense of the Ski Teacher's professionalism is very demeaning. e.g Some young rep tells you that the judgment of some gappy tech (who wasn't born when you qualified) is superior to yours because that individual went on a half-day tech course.
Obviously if gross negligence (screwing the DIN up to the stops, or issuing damaged equipment) occurred, then prosecution could result.
To be safe, you should phone the rep or the shop and ask them to confirm that they are aware there was a problem with the equipment. If you have to tighten or slacken a DIN, make sure you document it with the reasons in your notebook at the time and make sure you make the ski school manager aware later.
When things go bad on you
The ski vacation industry can be wretched sometimes:
I have had big problems with duff rental equipment. On three occasions I sent a pupil back with a schoolteacher to the shop with defective bindings and on three occasions they were sent back out with the same defective skistopper (The stopper came off every time the ski released - making it very dangerous - as well as needing 15 minutes a time to find the screws and bits that fell off). The resort rep gave me a carpeting for being "Unprofessional" and making a fuss about this incident.
Warm-Up safety check
What I do every morning is as part of the warm-up I get my class to kick each-other's boots out of the bindings. They should come out with a firm tap laterally, but they shouldn't come out with a foot-twist from the wearer. It keeps you right, and it also instructs their knowledge. If someone gets an injury after that, it is more likely that the individual will mention your attention to detail and less likely they'll make vague "I think the Instructor changed the settings" statements to the Gendarmerie.
After lunch too, a class will frequently pick up the wrong skis - of course not set for them. I make sure this never happens to my classes.
To avoid ski mix-ups, I make a point of getting the class to stack their skis all together, and away from the other classes' skis.
Amazed
Most of the time If I'm taking a fast group of intermediates down a challenging red run, I often wonder how they can do it given the poor state their skis and boots are in.
In conclusion - it would be an exceptional event if I ever took a screwdriver to a client's DIN settings on the hill. It shouldn't be necessary. If it is necessary, the solution isn't to make the ski teacher go on a course of how to use a screwdriver. Obviously, a Ski Teacher should already know. Ski Teachers who have to do class boot-fitting and Din Adjustment should be paid extra for it.
SkiPresto
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I would point a finger of blame at the common instruction to beginners to 'relax' during a fall.
Whilst a locked out elbow is asking for a broken collar bone, having completely floppy joints would, IMHO, be asking for ligament injuries instead. I've had enough falls now to know that if a leg or knee starts heading off at an implausible angle then all I need to do is brace and the binding will pop. Beginners (and not-so-aware intermediates) will just let the limb keep going until it gets so out of line that the binding has an impossible task.
Sadly, I think the art of falling is often overlooked in the rush to progress learners along the Central Theme. I prefer to cover this, and the associated activity of sit turns, before folks go anywhere near a Poma.
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You know it makes sense.
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Next time try to take the DIN you get from rentals, and compare it with the chart you can find on DINSETTING.COM. The chart is made of the people who make the bindings, so my guess is they are right.
I myself always reciewe rentals at DIN=10 and I adjust them down to DIN=5,5 and, knock on wood, have not prereleased yet.
(I'm 115 kg, 190cm 5 weeks ski-experience, and do martial arts for training)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Anyway, whether you are insured or not does not stop them sueing you. If you're not insured and found to be negligent you could end up bankrupt
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Poster: A snowHead
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Most no win no fee lawyers wouldn't take such a case unless there are "deep pockets" i.e. insurance company involved. Making someone bankrupt is a pretty hollow victory if you still have to pay all your lawyers' fees - you can't have what doesn't exist, money wise!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Going back to the factors contributing to accidents in near-beginner skiers, I can add a personal insight. I broke my fibula over the top of the boot very early in my middle-aged skiing career (about 17 years ago). I spent a lot of time that winter thinking about the contributing factors, which seemed to be:
1. Lack of confidence on steeper icy slopes.
2. Blunt edges on hire skis contributing to the lack of confidence.
3. Being in ski school (class 2) which wasn't picking up on my difficulties on ice.
4. Lack of knowledge of different types of snow conditions - I was miles behind the rest of the class and headed into the loose stuff at the edge of the piste in order to get round the problem of skithering everywhere on the ice. My feet stopped dead - my legs didn't - and crack went the fibula.
5. Binding +1 too tight (according to my doctor, a keen skier).
So the key factors in my case seemed to be a combination of equipment, quality of tuition for beginners, and inexperience.
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FAQ
