 Poster: A snowHead
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I’ve been on many ski holidays with groups of widely mixed abilities. I’ve noticed is that beginners, especially non young, non fit skiers seem to get injured far more than the experienced skiers, usually from falls at very low speed. This is not something I’ve seen discussed here, so thought I would start a thread.
A stereotypical example would be, say a third day skier snowploughing slowly into some deeper snow, perhaps at the edge of the piste, then falling over in an awkward tangled heap without the skis releasing, resulting in a knee injury. I‘ve seen at least three lady beginner skiers do this.
Conversely a more competent skier may have a spectacular wipe-out, with gear flying in all directions, and, unless they hit something, they will almost always get up unhurt.
Presumably it’s all about the twisting forces being applied. The beginner is not going fast enough to generate enough force to release the binding (which are likely to be basic rental bindings), while the experienced skier’s bindings do their job because of the much higher forces involved. Beginners also seem to end up sitting down on the base of their skis, which can’t help.
I wonder if there’s another element as well, the ‘rag doll’ effect where a tumbling skier seems to go all floppy as they fall. Does this help avoid injury?
Maybe ski rental bindings are routinely incorrectly set, and need to be able to pop open much earlier for absolute beginners?
Anyway, I’m putting these thoughts up to see if other people agree, and to see what, if anything can be done to alleviate the problem. After all, a 45 year old lady who sprains her knee on her third day of her first ski holiday, can’t ski for the rest of the trip, and is still limping 2 weeks later is unlikely to be enthusiastic about a second ski trip.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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(a) bindings which are set correctly and operate normally, (b) good lessons to start developing effective technique and confidence from day 1, and (c) be taught how to fall (eg don't sit backwards, fall sideways on to your hip).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've seen very similar accidents. I do think shops sometimes set bindings too high - a beginner snowploughing is much more likely to be injured in the sort of fall you describe than through "pre-release". I always advise beginner friends to tell the shop they have bad knees and to ask them to set the bindings very, very, light. I am quite an experienced skier but I ski mainly on piste and am a "smooth" rather than a jerky jumpy skier. I weight 10 stone, my bindings are set on 4, I sometimes travel quite fast (well it feels fast...) and they never come off when I don't want them to.
But for the middle aged women you describe I think the other key factors are general fitness, and weight. Just looking around the average resort most middle aged beginner women are overweight. And many of them probably do scarcely any exercise which would strengthen their legs. And they are so scared of falling that they contort themselves rather than just doing that "rag doll" thing. Well before the holiday they need to be advised to work specifically to strengthen legs (quad and hamstrings, and don't forget the hamstrings) and laying off the buns for a bit wouldn't go amiss, either. And yes, of course, good lessons. And if they're not very sporty, don't ski outside the lessons for the first half week at least. Go for a leg strengthening walk on snowshoes instead.
I am far worse than middle aged (been drawing a pension for a few years now) and though I don't fall very often on skis on piste I have done loads of falls on a snowboard (like every beginner boarder). Some of those falls have been painful, but none has resulted in any injury and I strongly believe that experience has helped me because I'm not scared of falling. Except on an icy pavement. Then I'm very scared and not without reason. Two of my friends have broken wrists that way.
The average overweight, understrength, middle aged female beginner has probably not fallen over, in any situation, since they were about 6. Not a good start. Guys who play football etc, apart from having much stronger legs, will probably be much less out of practice with falling over.
I'm not recommending lots of falling over - an apt learner with a good instructor won't fall over much. But that fear of falling is absolutely paralysing - it's like trying to teach someone to sail a dinghy if they're mortally scared of capsizing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Some good points there pam W. In future I will take your advice about 'bad knees' at the hire shop.
I also take your point about lack of falling over practise for certain ladies. I saw this in an extreme form with a friend's wife. Aged 35 she was a moderately competent red run skier, but she got increasingly obsessive about not falling over, to the extent that she would do entire ski holidays without falling. Her skiing became more amd more cautious, even private lessons didn't help. Eventually she just stopped because she was too scared of falling.
Perhaps InsideOut could run a 'falling over clinic' fr beginners in a padded room somewhere. The course would involve drinking lots of alchohol to a) relax and remove inhibitions,b) encourage falling over, and C) dull any pain from the fall. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Started a post then read the rest of pam w's and she nailed it. You can cater for unfit people, but it's impossible to stop every single beginner that does zero excercise and has no athleticism or confidence from the potential for injury. Skiing only highlights this because it's a weird sport where lots of people decide to give it a try, without excercising at all in the last year and with a lot of fear of falling.
How to avoid it? Do a bit of general excercise pre-holiday, warm up on mornings, ease yourself into it with an instructor rather than a well meaning friend, take it steady. I don't think skiing is a particularly high risk sport for a beginner, I was more wary on ice skates than skis...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Spud9 wrote: |
| Perhaps InsideOut could run a 'falling over clinic' fr beginners in a padded room somewhere. The course would involve drinking lots of alchohol to a) relax and remove inhibitions,b) encourage falling over, and C) dull any pain from the fall. |
An excellent suggestion. It will, of course, take much development time by Inside Out Skiing's team of coaches to ensure we give clients a great experience. I will begin the product development cycle this weekend.
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I'd echo the bindings problem. I've seen too many cases where shops have set bindings far to high for beginners and others.
It shouldn't be needed, but even (especially) beginners should learn about DIN settings, know what their number, and know where to look on the ski to check they have been set correctly. And take no cr@p from the ski shop when they are set wrong.
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the first thing beginners should do on a ski holiday is throw themselves down a moderate inclined slope without skis so as they can realise how much fun falling can be!!! then they should be shown how to fall properly. then they should be shown how to stop sliding after falling. then they should be taught how to ski.
it's done in kayaking. the first thing that beginner kayakers are taught is how to safely get out of the boat once it's upside down. this can actually be very good fun. only after they've learned how to do that, and swim with their kayak properly (ie. never letting go of their paddles or kayak), they then get to learn how to paddle.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Spud9 wrote: |
| Perhaps InsideOut could run a 'falling over clinic' |
That's what I thought the last mogal clinic was. 
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| Quote: |
I was more wary on ice skates than skis..
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me too. My only real injury in the last 20 years was on the ice rink in Chamonix when the snow was absolute rubbish. Huge, dire, bruising all down hip and leg. I had to get driven home (couldn't drive) and get out of my jeans quickly before the swelling made it impossible.
I hope rob@rar is going to give regular product development updates.
An evening mucking about on toboggans might be a good idea for some people - save that it's far more dangerous than skiing.
I don't know what the best answer is for that extreme fear of falling. In sailing people learn to capsize, and as just noted, kayakers learn to get out upside down. 2 hours beginner snowboarding lesson is probably the best answer - then skiing will seem soooooooooooooo painless.
For some, spending some hours without sticks would help a lot - people use them like a safety blanket and they set up a lot of extra tension. It's extraordinary how many people who can ski a bit (will even tackle an easy red run without undue anxiety) go rigid with dread if you suggest a few runs without sticks. Maybe one way to go is to give them a video camera and ask them to do you a favour and come down after you, filming your turns, so that you can identify your faults. That would give them something else to focus on.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Just don't go skiing 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Perhaps it's time for the Arret Briancon to be reintroduced.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Most adults probably harbour a secret desire to try one
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What you mean most adults haven't tried one. I don't even have kids and have managed to have several goes on bouncy castles - great fun.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
it's done in kayaking. the first thing that beginner kayakers are taught is how to safely get out of the boat once it's upside down. this can actually be very good fun. only after they've learned how to do that, and swim with their kayak properly (ie. never letting go of their paddles or kayak), they then get to learn how to paddle.
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Or not...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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biggest problem with turning bindings down to "what you think they should be" is that there is a release values chart which gives the settings, the chart has an element of safety built in it is designed to give the bindings a parameter to work within...... is the instructor qualified to adjust the binding???? depends have they done a course of some description... i would guess that their insurance wouldn't cover them (if they had not done a course) should they have made an adjustment and someone gets injured and decides to make a claim
then there is the issue of upper body injuries due to pre release (lets change that to just release as bindings do not pre release they release when they are designed to) if the settings are too low and the binding releases in normal use then there is a high likelihood of upper body injury shoulders, arms, wrists
there is no way of stopping this type of injury, a ski binding is like the seatbelt or airbag in a car, it is there to protect you if you crash, but they don't stop you crashing / falling over in the first place
if it is set correctly according to the manufacturers release values settings chart then it is minimizing the risks
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
is the instructor qualified to adjust the binding???? depends have they done a course of some description... i would guess that their insurance wouldn't cover them (if they had not done a course) should they have made an adjustment and someone gets injured and decides to make a claim
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When I did my anwarter/worked in St Anton (may be different elsewhere) we were told we could adjust the bindings by half a setting each way, and then send the guest to a hire shop after the lesson. We couldn't do any larger adjustments.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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CEM, but isn't 'type' of skier, e.g. cautious/moderate/aggressive a factor? There's some scope there for mis-self-assessment or miss-communication in the average in-resort hire-shop. Might that justify an instructor turning the DIN setting down 0.5 or 1.0, based on seeing the person ski and seeing them fall without the binding releasing?
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I'm happy to accept that there are risks to having bindings set too low and that in some circumstances losing a ski could be fatal. But I remain unrepentant - I run my own bindings lower than recommended and I think my legs are safer that way. Generally, when I fall, I am pleased when the skis come off (they don't always). In my tiny circle of friends and relations there have been two very major injuries (to middle aged, though not overweight, early beginner women) caused by skis staying on when it would have been better if they'd come off. One of them was a severe fracture, chopper evacuation in New Zealand and now, several operations and bone grafts later, a chronically damaged leg and somebody who will never be able to ski again. the other will probably try again next season after ACL reconstruction. That one was in a ski lesson (wobbly beginner, knocked off balance on the down ramp, by a child). The former was also getting off a chairlift. My own only severe skiing injury, in Cairngorm yonks ago, was a common or garden fall (I was a beginner) when my left knee was badly twisted by a ski (rented) which failed to release.
If given a choice, on the ordinary sort of terrain I ski on, I would prefer to take my chance with a dive out of my skis than another of those twisting falls. It's always a big relief when I feel them click off.
I would hazard a guess that on any ordinary sort of blue or red run there are more skiers with bindings set higher than is good for them, than have them set too low.
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I suspect the type of fall I described in my first post is quite different to the types of normal ski falls where there is a substantial 'dynamic' element. In the type of fall I described the skier is skiing very slowly, on very gentle terrain, and just crumples up into a heap, often with a ski jammed awkwardly underneath them. From this position they frequently can't get up. I'm sure that recommended DIN settings for beginners work fine when someone's snowploughing down a green run, crosses their tips and goes base over apex. I'm not so sure they deal adequately with a 'sad little heap' type fall.
Disclaimer: I know nothing, I'm just an opinionated recreational skier.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| and get out of my jeans quickly before the swelling made it impossible |
I too have been afflicted with this, on occasion, but never after a visit to an ice rink.
That normally has a completely opposite effect.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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They need to go faster.  The slow twisting fall is a clasic cause of beginner injuries and part of the problem is that bindings have trouble holding you in during the dynamic manouvers and still being able to release in the slow gentle twisting falls. We do expect the bindings to do a very complicated task in a wide variety of conditions.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sarge McSarge, tue. Abovem all else I think lessons with a good instructor is the bset advice.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| CEM, but isn't 'type' of skier, e.g. cautious/moderate/aggressive a factor? There's some scope there for mis-self-assessment or miss-communication in the average in-resort hire-shop. Might that justify an instructor turning the DIN setting down 0.5 or 1.0, based on seeing the person ski and seeing them fall without the binding releasing? |
the charts offer various levels of skier used to be types 1,2 and 3 recently they added -1 and +3 ...problem is some rental operations aren't as technical as they should be and some clients aren't as honest as they should be
biggest problem with making an on hill adjustment is who is responsible if it all goes wrong and the skier decides to make a claim, an increase or reduction of even 0.5 can put the skier into a danger zone which may cause the binding to either release or not
maybe Beanie1 can clarify this but i am sure that BASI currently do not have a binding adjustment module in their courses...maybe they should have??
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You know it makes sense.
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CEM, On a recent SSE course we were all advised to go on a binding tech course, the advice given was that we would be liable if we adjusted a client's bindings without holding a binding tech qualification.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
maybe Beanie1 can clarify this but i am sure that BASI currently do not have a binding adjustment module in their courses...maybe they should have??
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CEM,
BASI are currently looking at introducing this element to L2 courses for all disciplines, as at L2 you will be qualified to work in a mountain environment (L1s only should only work on artifical slopes, where the hire shop is very close). The advice is that if you have done a binding tech course and carry a DIN chart with you so you can correctly adjust bindings, then you would be deemed competent to adjust bindings if needed. If you haven't done a course or don't have a chart with you, then don't adjust them yourself.
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Poster: A snowHead
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tiffin, you have moguls in snow domes?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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How much training does it take to become competent in binding setting?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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laundryman, It's relatively simple. I did a Salomon ski tech course, and I think it lasted a couple of hours. The important part is to practice using the DIN chart.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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under a new name, let's call them mogelettes
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beanie1, that's what I thought. With no formal training, I adjust my own hire skis without a second thought. I've glanced at charts from time to time and think I understand the principles.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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laundryman, 14 if you're racing, 6 if you're everyone else except kids who go on 2.
Simples.
Like the old rules for ski length. 203 for special, 207 for giant.
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CEM, I wouldn't suggest that all ski instructors routinely adjust bindings, and certainly in the winter when the shop is close I would send the student back to the shop. However the shop has not necessarily seen the skier in question, and on occasions the bindings may be set at a level where injury seems likely in the event of a fall. In these cases it's better to adjust the bindings in situ and send them back to the shop later. Of course it's also important to stress to the student that as ski instructors we are not insured to do this!
The same applies if a skier is constantly having pre-releases and you are conducting a lesson off piste or bumps or whatever, it's better to adjust the bindings at that moment in time rather than send the student away from the lesson (which they've paid for) to go all the way down to the shop and back again, when the lesson is probably over and you have another student at a different level.
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| easiski wrote: |
| The same applies if a skier is constantly having pre-releases and you are conducting a lesson off piste or bumps or whatever, it's better to adjust the bindings at that moment. |
Yes, I had need of that in a lesson last season.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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We got told this season that we weren't to touch anyone's bindings, or advise people to go alter them theirselves. You can get round it with a bit of common sense to not implicate yourself, but I do think adjusting peoples bindings on the mountain is asking for trouble, since any DIN will hold a boot if you're gentle/careful and adjusting size has a lot of issues with forward pressure etc.
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easiski, and even if you do explain that you are not insured to do this you go ahead!!! what if someone takes advantage of you and trys to sue, they could easily claim with family members present that you didn't say and they assumed you were insured
for the sake of a couple of hours and a minimal cost i would suggest any instructor making adjustments do a course. i know for a fact that if there is a claim against a shop and the shop staff have been trained then the binding company will normally assist and back them up, no training and they run in the other direction
i should add that forward pressure which was brought up in a couple of posts is equally if not more important than the DIN setting itself, as is boot sole wear, the state of the AFD of the binding etc etc etc
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FAQ
