Tragedy in Kaprun

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beanie1 wrote:,

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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Oh I don't know I'd be a lot less nervous skiing down a blue piste at speed than playing Badmington with Boris in his pleated skirt. Wink

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northernsoulboy, SwissChris, I know the Kitzsteinhorn quite well and was trying to work out where that is from the photo. I reckon it is right at the top of Blue 4a & 4b looking south towards the Grossglockner although I can't see why they would have stretchered her back up to the top of 4a or b if it had happened on these runs?

If it did happen on an easy slope then seeing the stretcher sledge there I can only presume that it happened around where black 1 becomes blue 1 around the bottom of the funicular as they could then have stretchered the casualty to the chopper on the flat bit at the top of 4a or b. I have seen a few near misses here as faster ( but not necessarily better) skiers who take black 1 from the top of the Gipfelbahn cut the corner to get onto red 2 right through the relative beginners moving off from the bottom of the funicular.

This theory is of course based on the presumption that it is really a photo of this incident and not a library picture?

Very sad for this lady and her family Sad

That said I spent three weeks in the area in January, I stayed in Zell am See and, purely to avoid the carnage of the valley runs, I skied down to the valley at the end of the day only once in that time.

I'm not commenting of this tragic incident as we don't yet know the facts but these and many other resorts have a real problem with the behaviour of some skiers that they are doing nothing about. I have come to the conclusion that they will do nothing about it until they are forced, by a liberal dose of litigation, to install better signage, more nets and fencing and patrol the piste with clear and demonstrable consequences of irresponsible behaviour! Mad

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Whilst not detracting from the fact that this is a highly tragic accident, I think the panic scaremongering about crowded pistes, out of control skiers, helmets, etc. etc. is a little bit of an over-reaction. Think about just how many people are skiing/boarding in how many resorts over the course of the season and a handful of tragic deaths become a very small statistic. Pretty sure using the roads is inherently more dangerous and life-threatening.

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It's always very sad when someone dies like this leaving kids, etc but everyone's assuming the crash caused the death.

All we (think we) know for sure is that a woman died of a ruptured aorta and another woman was severely injured in a collision. People do die of a ruptured aorta without massive trauma so it's possible the English woman collapsed on the piste and the Dutch woman then crashed into her. That obviously means the second woman was going too fast (as she couldn't avoid the crash) but neither are to blame for the unfortunate death. Just an alternative scenario.

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DB - ah, I was only going on what one of my kids' ski instructors said re local holidays.

Pam W - yep, fair dos. To be honest, crowded or not, I find you're generally more focused on your own ski-ing - at least, I am - to notice too much of what's going on around you. If I'm looking at it when it happens, I see it, but if it's peripheral I tend not to see it. That maybe explains the lack of witnesses?

SwissChris - your daughter isn't an 18 year old blonde girl who was working for Esprit, was she? If so she was teaching my girls and they loved her. If not, sorry for being Roger Irrelevant.

Robboj - yep, like I say from the description I bet it was 4a or 4b. I agree with you entirely about the behaviour of some skiers (and boarders).
Unfortunately, I admit to my shame that have skied like a kn*b myself in my slightly younger days, but having children of your own tends to change your perspective.
I can't see why they can't designate some areas as slower zones and others as take your life in your hands zones - 4a could be for kids and beginners, and 4b could be anything goes, within reason.
More piste patrol and maybe speed guns as they have in the States wouldn't be a bad thing, though we all like to let it rip from time to time so it wouldn't be a good idea everywhere.

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Queen Bodicea - that's fair enough. To be honest I have never once worried about myself, but I am 17st and 6ft and am in most cases probably likely to come off better than the other person in a collision (which I've never had, bearing out your point). It's more my kids, and other children, I worry about (obviously, I suppose).

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queen bodecia, Oh well that's all right then...poor woman....never mind, these things happen... it 's only a very small statistic.

I'm off to phone Alistair Darling to tell him that he can shave a few million off the deficit by cutting back on road policing, signage, fences and barriers, in fact I may suggest that if he abolishes speed limits etc then we'll all get about quicker and therefore be more efficient and profitable in our jobs. Think of the savings to the justice system with all the driving prosecutions not going ahead as no offence has been committed?

The point I am making is that all these things make using the roads as safe as it can reasonably be. My contention is that many ski resorts are not doing anything like enough to make skiing as safe as it can reasonably be.

DB, Yes I see the chair now which does make me doubt my original thoughts. That said the shadows are short which suggests mid-day. The high peak in the distance looks awfully like the Glockner which, with the shadows pointing straight at the photographer, reinforces my southern view thoughts. You would not be able to see anything but slope looking south from the bottom of the Kitzlift?

Anyway, probably irrelevant, more than likely a library picture of an OAMTC chopper Confused

You know it makes sense.

robboj that's a bit harsh on queen bodecia. No one is denying that it is a tragic incident but it is also correct that "these things happen". While I have some sympathy with your own view that some ski resorts could do more to make some areas safer (particularly home runs as discussed above) it is surely unrealistic to

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

rjs, You're right and that's why consequences need to follow such actions!

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Tiger2, Maybe, apologies to queen bodecia if I was harsh but the longer we, as the paying customer of these places think like that, the longer the resorts will get away with it.

I am maybe not making my point clear. What I mean by making skiing as safe as can reasonably be is that the rules are enforced. I am not advocating anything more the the FIS 10 commandments, They are perfectly adequate as they stand. What is perfectly clear from what I and, I think many others, see on the slopes is that an unacceptably high number of skiers choose to ignore them. If and when they do there needs to be consequences.

Using the road is as safe as it can reasonably be because people who choose to ignore the rules maybe caught by the police and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Therefore there exists a fear of the consequences of ignoring the rules.

If that same fear existed on the mountains as a result of resorts doing everything they reasonably can to enforce the rules then skiing would be safer.

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robboj, What do you suggest ? One problem with making the penalty severe enough to be a deterrent is that the person charged will want a proper trial, the victim/witness then has to decide whether they can be bothered coming back for it. IME the police tend to just give warnings if the victim doesn't need to stay in hospital.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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SwissChris, Welcome to snowHead

I too feel very vulnerable to being hit & hate busy slopes. Interesting point about old fashioned long skis & the style of skiing that goes with them.

Isnt a ruptured aorta what got Princess Di? Condolences to the family.

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rjs A proper piste patrol, with full legal authority to obtain, use and retain personal details. For most transgressions the authority to confiscate a lift pass either temporarily or permanently. To go back to the road analogy the police don't need a witness to a speeding/drunk/careless driver to prosecute so there is no need to haul witnesses back if the piste patrol see it with their own eyes.

The mountain companies utilise digital photographic technology on passes to protect their revenue, surely it cannot be difficult to utilise the same technology (that is on more and more passes these days) to ban people from the resort if need be.

We could debate this all day, IMO the ways and means are available, what is lacking is the will to deploy them. As I said in an earlier post the unfortunate thing is that this wont happen until it becomes cheaper to do so than meet the cost of litigation Mad

Funny how often there are no witnesses to crashes. In this instance I agree with the earlier poster, as, looking at Tuesday's weather, the blue runs on the Kitzsteinhorn would have been like Oxford street on the last Saturday before Xmas. Could it be that it is in somebody's interests to have no witnesses? After all the witnesses might tell a court what happened and then the court might take the view that somebody could have done something to prevent the crash Shocked

Just a thought Little Angel

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genepi, I though Princess Di had a ruptured pulmonary vein (or maybe artery).
Dwarf Vader, thanks for pointing out the changes in Val T - I think that shows some real sense from the slope operators there - it looks more like a covered magic carpet to me.
robboj, on my recent trip to les Arcs I had to use the Chantel piste at least once daily to get home. This piste is fenced off at the top with a slalom arrangement and signs saying Ski Tranquille at the entry and also further fences lower down with the same sign. I would be farily affluent if I had 1 euro for every blue-run-hero I saw on this slope in the course of the week rolling eyes

- my point being that despite considerable resort effort, the punters disregard it.

My condolences to the family of both victims.

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robboj, It's not practical because it is so difficult to decide what is skiing dangerously. Someone can ski very fast and still be in perfect control - that might frighten less experienced people who can't understand how it's safe, but it doesn't mean it's dangerous. If they're 5 metres away form a beginner I would say that's a safe margin, but it is still probably close enough to frighten many beginners.

Also the driving analogy falls down as it is not done for enjoyment. Skiing is inherantly dangerous, and I whilst I don't disagree all reasonable safety precautions should be taken, the fact remains that it will never be fully safe, and you choose to take that risk. I guess you could make an obligatory test whereby you have to demonstrate you can ski any psite in full control before you are allowed out of ski school, but that's not likely to be popular with many holiday skiers, so in reality it'll never happen.

After all it is free

clarky999, The driving analogy may still work if you confine it to certain bits of road. I gather that the Nurburgring counts as a public road and that you can be prosecuted for doing something stupid.

Freddie Paellahead, You get punters on every race course, you can put up as many "closed" signs and fences as you like but you will still have to tell someone in a silly hat to go away.

robboj, Piste patrols already have a lot of legal authority, in Italy they can be members of the Guardia di Finanza, at the worst accident I have had to deal with as a club coach the head guy suggested not prosecuting to avoid needing to come back for the trial even though he was a witness too. I have been told that Pisteurs in France have powers of arrest as well.

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rjs, If they are members of the Guardia de Finanza then I suspect their primary function is to check for lift pass dodgers?

I've never skied in France but from what I read they are much ahead of the rest of Europe in a least trying to improve matters.

I cannot remember ever seeing any piste patrol (apart from lifties skiing down to check for stragglers at the close) anywhere in Austria.

clarky999, When you're skiing do you never think to yourself "look at that idiot" ? Well if you do then all we need is the piste patrol to think the same and then do something about it. It might be a quiet word, it might be a formal warning, it might be a pass confiscation, or it might be come with us whilst we await the arrival of the Police.

I am not suggesting we can make it completely safe, just that we do something about those whom deliberately and recklessly make it more dangerous than it inherently is!

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rjs,

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Jeez, didn't mean to start such controversy. My only point was that one (or a handful of) tragic event(s) in amongst hundreds of thousands of happy skiers does not need to give rise to such panic. I shall merrily continue to feel safe and have fun skiing on piste (without a goddam helmet I might add). If the worst should happen, so be it. I could get run over by a bus tomorrow.

You know it makes sense.

queen bodecia, I knew what you meant Laughing

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queen bodecia, your are entitled to think that way, and if said bus does get you then I will be very sorry to hear that Sad

If you wander in front of it without looking then that will be that

However, might you not like to think that if the bus driver was drunk or talking on a mobile or speeding or driving dangerously or carelessly that there might be consequences for him/her?

There almost certainly would be, however IMO if the same happened on piste the chances of consequences are negligible.

We don't know what the true stats are, we only hear about the fatalities because the are reported in the media and find their way on here. The resorts have a vested interest in making sure that does not change.

Maybe the truth will change the mindset? I know for a fact that 3 people died on the Schmittenhoehe in Zell am See in 2008/09. That, I suspect, in fact I hope, is well above average for one mountain and yet nothing, not one thing, was changed for 2009/10 Mad

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I agree with queen bodecia - sometimes things are just accidents and you can't try to legislate against them all.

I think there is merit in having those in authority give people bollockings to encourage them to be a bit more savvy - yesterday I saw a patroller walk up from a slow sign he was manning to tell a family who had decided to have a mass standaround on a very high traffic cat-track that they should move along and had a near miss when a teenager who'd previously been tracking totally straight on the other side of same cattrack decided to employ the "no look swerve" straight uphill into the run I was joining it from.

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robboj, it was cancer that came close to getting me. One of the biggest risks that humans in the western world face. I wonder if some of these people that bleat about piste safety and wearing helmets also smoke? That would be rather ironic.

The fact remains that some people are killed in tragic accidents. Whether they are road accidents, sports accidents, accidents in the home or whatever, these horrible things happen. We can't live our lives in a protective bubble.

Pretty sure the most dangerous thing I do regularly is walking alone at night in Nottingham. I choose to do it because I wouldn't have a social life otherwise. Same as any other risk I choose to take. I consider that the benefits of taking that risk outweigh any potential danger.

Of course I feel awful for this poor woman's children, but we are in danger of losing the perspective here.

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laundryman, Laughing

Completely off topic but my online name came from some motorbiking buddies. Something to do with long wavy red hair hanging (or rather flying) down from gold helmet. It just kinda stuck, I'm not from Colchester nor have I ever fought any Romans. Laughing

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Re my football / skiing comment. Yes skiing is obviously more potentially dangerous, but the fact remains there are more (in percentage terms) deaths and serious (ie not broken limbs,, twisted knees etc) from sports such as football, and yes I believe badminton.

Labelling sports "extreme" is a marketing tool.

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queen bodecia, Your perspective - maybe, mine - not remotely.

I have every sympathy for what you have been through and have lost several friends and relatives, including both my parents, to what you have defeated.

FYI I don't smoke and never have, I do wear a helmet but find it comfortable and warm, especially since my head decided it didn't like having hair any more Toofy Grin

On the only occasion I have had a bad accident it did save me from serious abrasions to the side of my head and face, so it has covered it's cost an then some AFAIAC!

You are absolutely right about tragic accidents and my opinion on such is exactly the same!

However, you seem to be unable or unwilling to accept that some people, through their irresponsibility, or downright disregard for safety, common sense, or common decency and sensible behaviour deliberately choose to increase the likelihood of tragic accidents!

These are the people we have to deal with and I cannot accept anyone saying that they and their actions are a risk of skiing that we should just accept Puzzled

After all it is free

Wow never a good thing for a holiday. My thoughts with that family and their friends and the other skier.

I think the people over the pond USA and Canada have a better (through their litigation culture) agreements of use of the slopes. When u buy your lift ticket u enter into a contract to adhere to the rules and laws of the mountain you are on.
Any N.American lift pass and ski map have instructions about crash etiquette.
The ski patrol know where the home run areas are and have 2 ppl, in whistle the yellow police. Dedicated to ensure safety on the slopes. They have many more slow signs over there and the yellow police have the power to take away passes and do so much more regularly. People are warned they are going to fast in slow zones then radio's down to another set to warm ppl to slow down.
I've seen them case ppl who don't listen down and make sure they obey.
Things are managed much better over the other side of pond, from lift queues to this slow zone area.
I think the speed in slow zone area's really needs to be addressed, this tragedy may not be to do with speed in slow zone at all.
Ruptured aorta nothing to do with a helmet, as stated above unless a predisposed condition of weak vascular walls, it was a large blunt force trauma to the chest, front or back.

queen bodecia,

Possibly slightly unusual, bit I agree 10050% with everything you've said on this thread.

xanderajma, There is nothing wrong with skiing fast as you suggest, only skiing dangerously - and the difference is very subjective. I would much rather stick with the European methind than our doghnut dunking 'attorney' relying geograhically challenged and intellectually infantile 'cousins!'

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