 Poster: A snowHead
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Ernst Goldsmith, No what i was trying to do was point out how silly it is to compare these numerous things. Because whether it's comparing british snowsports with austrians or british cycling with british snowsports you're not comparing like with like you're comparing apples with oranges.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| roga wrote: |
| Really the only place in the UK where you get a sense that snowsports are a part of local culture is in the Aviemore area |
The current top female and male alpine racers come from, respectively, Twickenham and Kingston. Of the 14 racers in the WC and Europa squads I think there are three from the Aviemore area, and they are easily outnumbered by those who have home towns in the Home Counties.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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frank4short, very interesting and intelligent comments, thank you. Your comments about the UK not having native mountains worth the name does raise a further talking point in that, in spite of our lack of terrain, we still manage to regularly produce top 20 finishers. I have no doubt that, properly funded, we can achieve even more successful snowsports athletes. Add to that the fact that a surprising about of people know who our "successful" skiers are (Konrad, the Bells, the Baxters, the fragrant Chemmi etc), just a little more regular success should have a, excuse the pun, snowball effect. Success brings an audience, audience brings sponsorship, sponsorship brings money, money allows better/more training, training brings success. Repeat to Olympic medals in 2014. Probably.
The bottom line for me is that many minority sports flourish and, even with the added expense that skiing requires, I don't see why skiing can't either. I think it is entirely down to the competence and motivation of the administrators. Sack the Bufton Tuftons currently running things into the ground and bring in hard-nosed commercial operators, pay them the market rate along with clearly defined performance bonuses so they are properly motivated.
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Dr John, SSGB isn't run by Bufton Tuftons. If it was it wouldn't be in the shate it's in. The problem has its roots in the parts that make up SSGB and their petty little squabbles. And don't look to the South, London or Home Counties for someone to blame either. No, look no further than the simpleminded provincial tosspots who hold sway. As long as they and all their mates can have subsidised and affiliated racing they couldn't give a shate about anything else.
No one with any sense will take on the running of SSGB with those idiots around.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PJSki, Which races do you think SSGB is subsidising ?
The first paragraph of the original article seems a bit strange, plenty of other people in Meribel last year knew about the money problems. I had presumed that KB wasn't involved in British skiing anymore based on his commentary on the ITV programme.
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rjs, afaik, the funding flows out of SportUK, into SSGB, then into, for example, SSEngland and then down into the clubs. I assume it doesn't flow the other way. Or does it?
SSEngland claim:
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| With well over half a million skiers and snowboarders visiting ski slopes and mountain country to take part in Alpine, Snowboarding, Cross-Country, Touring, Ski Touring, Racing and Freestyle, Snowsport England has the job of servicing these interests. It prepares representative teams and also handles training of coaches, performers and officials. |
If money flows the other way, where is it supposed to go and where is it now?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| The current top female and male alpine racers come from, respectively, Twickenham and Kingston. Of the 14 racers in the WC and Europa squads I think there are three from the Aviemore area, and they are easily outnumbered by those who have home towns in the Home Counties. |
Rob I don't deny that and currently being based in the south (as you know  ), working at Gloucester ski slope and having my kids involved in the local ski clubs and races I am very aware of the contributions and numbers of top racers from other parts of the country. However my point was that there isn't a snowsports culture to the same extent in other parts of the country and I stand by that point. Historically, and in the here and now, the Aviemore area and Cairngorm (and lets not forget the other Scots involved in Competive snowsports) has given us a surprisingly high proportion. Aviemore apparently has a population of 2397 (Twickenham 103675, Kingston 147273) and costs of skiing are relatively cheap, local children can get a season ticket for £50, which I'm guessing is rather cheaper than the costs involved in either Twickenham or Kingston, it's certainly a lot cheaper than where I am! Add to that the fact that some local schools have time on the mountain as part of their PE curriculum in the winter and/or have weekend clubs going and you inevitably involve a far higher proportion of people in snowsports than is possible elsewhere.
My point was not to dismiss racers from other parts of the country it was rather to point out that we don't have the same culture as the Alpine nations but what we do have should, IMHO, be appreciated and nurtured (when often it isn't, even by many Scots).
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A fundraiser for British Ski Team is being held in London on 11th Feb. Details are being hurriedly sorted out apparently. What I'm hearing is that this is a private short-term effort to try and keep the show on the road for the Olympics and aimed at getting coaches, physios and ski technicians paid (because they have been working without pay, but the promise of pay, for many months). A sorry state of affairs. More info as I get it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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In the midst of all this hoo-haa about funding and as an armchair ski racing fan I don't see much coverage of any of our skiers. Are there any (apart from the Divine Miss A) in the alpine skiing competitions this year? Whats more there's been no mention as far as I can see of our skiers (male or female) in the print media sports sections and no mention of the male skiers on programmes such as Ski Sunday. So basically it seems that there is no attempt to put these guys in to the public eye. Perhaps with a bit more public exposure there might be increased opportunities for funding?
A bit OT I know but thought I'd mention it whilst it occurred to me.
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| roga wrote: |
| My point was not to dismiss racers from other parts of the country it was rather to point out that we don't have the same culture as the Alpine nations but what we do have should, IMHO, be appreciated and nurtured (when often it isn't, even by many Scots). |
Agree entirely.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I do my best on here, and we've had a couple of pieces on the xc squad on the BBC, both on the TV and on the website - I posted links on here at the time. We have a young squad (the selected skiers are all under 20) and in reality 2014 is where we should start getting good results. However that is if our athletes can afford to compete for another 4 year olympic cycle. We have little or no support from SSGB.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Dave Horsley, Clearly you are associated with ski racing so forgive my ignorance but I think the coverage of British ski racers has been pretty abysmal.
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halfhand,
xc not alpine and we get even less support and coverage than the alpine skiers. Hopefully when we start getting more good results we'll get more coverage.
I'm only involved in the sense that I'm a member of HNSC which is producing most (but not all) of the GB squad skiers.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dr John wrote: |
| redrunmarcus, not forgetting the many different sailing teams, and if there's a more elitist sport than sailing I've yet to hear about it. |
You've obviously never heard of skiing then. 
Recreational sailing is much cheaper, in general, than recreational skiing, for UK people.
And top level dinghy sailing (which is what olympic events are) is also generally cheaper to fund than top level ski racing.
If you were talking about yachting, you would be closer to correct, but I don't think there is any national funding for yachting teams.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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alex_heney, take your point about recreational dinghy sailing being cheaper, but that is only one criteria. If we're comparing skiing/sailing, then let's look at how often sailing is in the public eye outside of olympic years? I haven't seen Sailing Sunday on the telly recently. What about the viewing figures when sailing is on telly? It's not exactly a spectator friendly sport, and certainly can't compete in excitement terms with a loony flying down a hill on two planks at 80mph (but then I am biased). My main point is that skiing has the potential to be marketed much more & better than it currently is to those not immediately involved in order to increase viewing figures, whereas sailing is a much harder sell.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I must say I find the whole watching downhill skiing on TV an incredible yawn, some of the ladies are nice to look at in their lycra but that is about as far as it goes for me. I think only Formula 1 and 5 day cricket tests are more boring.
There is probably a big disconnect between being a recreational skier and enjoying watching people with funny names whizzing down ski pistes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I prefer watching xc or biathlon - particularly the mass starts or pursuits and the sprints.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave Horsley wrote: |
| I prefer watching xc or biathlon - particularly the mass starts or pursuits and the sprints. |
Yes I'm kind of more with you on that one. I think the biathlon would be improved if the competitors were allowed to shoot at each other... maybe with paintball guns ?
The whole winter olymics needs a big shake up. It has hardly changed since Arnold Lunn was alive. Drop all the boring downhill crap, I mean jeez so Schmidt was 0.001 microseconds quicker than Fartz skiing down a piste, big deal.
Replace with more freeskiing/boarding/mogulling events. Keep the ladies figure skating but drop the hockey and speed skating nonsense. The four man bob? what is all that about, 4 blokes spooning on a sledge, it might be dangerous but it is hardly sport. I can see that in the local park if I want to, which I don't!
Get rid of the whole olympic circus and base the events back in a single ski resort.
Cut out any events that involve building costly infrastructure that will fall into ruin a couple of months after the event is finished. Like ski jumps, this could be replaced by the Olympic water slide for example.
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Dr John, I'd agree with that, but it is nothing to do with how "elitist" the sport/hobby is.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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alex_heney, I'll take your word for it that sailing, or certain sections of it at least, isn't elitist, however I would suggest that the public perception is of it being elitist (and there is an argument to say that perception is reality. I'll also add that yngling class sailing has been dropped from the olympics precisely because it is, er, elitist). Skiing is, of course, also perceived in the UK as being being elitist while we know that it isn't, or certainly isn't any more.
Anyhoo, enough of such meanderings, can we all at least agree that the SSGB is a total shower?
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SSGB are definately going into administration today. Direct news from the coaches and athletes.
This leaves them up s..t creek without a paddle!
I am now having to pay the coach and all his expenses again to get TJ to the World Junior champs tomorrow. I will also have to hire them a vehicle to get them from Austria to France for the champs. I have already paid SSGB and signed a contract for the whole season until the end of April. This includes all coaches fees, expenses and vehicle hire/use.
All the athles have been badly let down and they don't know what will happen next!!
davidof, The whole point of most sports is that you are the quickest person doing that event. Athletics, swimming, cycling etc are all the same, so why should skiing change? In my opinion, all the boarding, freestyle etc is all based on subjective marking. So lets have Ballroom dancing, or Ballet instead?
Take it from me the Alpine skiers are some of the fittest athlets on the planet. Let most footballer do what they do and see how long they would last!
Also skiing in a Downhill at up to 80mph takes some enourmous balls!!!
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| Quote: |
if there's a more elitist sport than sailing I've yet to hear about it.
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there are a number of more elitist sports than sailing. Skiing is one of them. Any kid with enthusiasm and talent for sailing can get masses of top quality training, coaching and encouragement for very little money. My daughter, and loads of other local kids, once got coached on a school holiday race week by Peter Blake (RIP). She and her friend were in an ancient Mirror dinghy and she'd never really raced before at all. That's like some child who has just learnt to ski parallel having a couple of days with Martin Bell. Maybe it's the nature of the sport, or its ready availability in the UK, or the qualities of the Royal Yachting Association, but for whatever reason, there's a complete spectrum in sailing from a kid starting to dabble in a local club and being able to race at local/national/international level. A fast, competitive, dinghy which can be transported behind the family car can be bought for the price of one pretty ordinary family ski holiday. And practically all the skills and knowledge necessary to race at high level can be acquired in dinghy costing a few hundred quid.
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Plugboy, a terrible situation but good luck to TJ at the world juniors - he has done amazingly well to get there and is definitely a really great hope for British alpine skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| frank4short wrote: |
name a recent great British TDF racer other than mark cavendish the sprinter, prior to him it's been a long time since there's been a British competitor truely worth shouting about.
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Well Bradley Wiggins did quite well last year
Completely agree with all your points though.
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| Dr John wrote: |
| if there's a more elitist sport than sailing I've yet to hear about it. |
Golf? Polo?
| Dr John wrote: |
| alex_heney, I'll take your word for it that sailing, or certain sections of it at least, isn't elitist, however I would suggest that the public perception is of it being elitist (and there is an argument to say that perception is reality. I'll also add that yngling class sailing has been dropped from the olympics precisely because it is, er, elitist). |
Not true - Outside the scope of this thread/forum/board - but the yngling class was not droppped because it was elitist it was dropped because there's a huge impetus from the IOC to ISAF to try and make sailing more TV friendly, and therefore ISAF decided that re-introducing match-racing was the way to go about it - the yngling was then dropped to make room for match racing..
| Dr John wrote: |
| if there's a more elitist sport than sailing I've yet to hear about it. |
Sure swilling around on 80ft gin palaces might seem elitist but the sport is very accessible at grass-roots level. At a local club you could join, get some lessons and rent a boat for 6 months of the year and pay much less than £1K for a couple - how much would you pay just to buy some golf clubs, let alone join a local club. For £4K you could buy a new laser dinghy that's exactly the same as the top guys race in the olympics - would 4K get you the exact same kit that Sir Hoy rides on?
In Weymouth kids from the local area can pay £5 and have a go at the sport with all equipment provided and under instruction and safety cover AT THE OLYMPIC VENUE. Now let me see can the kids in the wembley area pay a £5 for a 5-a-side game on the hallowed turf, can they pay £5 in E. London for a run round the olympic running track, £5 for a go up and down the rowing lake, £5 for a bike, some instruction and a whizz round the velodrome....The bragging rights for a kid (and not so kids) of I've just been racing in the olympic arena, is fantastic.
Actually you probably can get on a bike and do that as both cycling and sailing are UK sports run by sensible administrators that simultaneously work on delivering high level performances whilst increasing their outreach to encourage new participants and lowering barriers to entry. If you remove the medals won by those sports from Beijing and Athens, then we'd have a very paltry return on our taxpayers & lottery money.
| Dr John wrote: |
| alex_heney, take your point about recreational dinghy sailing being cheaper, but that is only one criteria. If we're comparing skiing/sailing, then let's look at how often sailing is in the public eye outside of olympic years? I haven't seen Sailing Sunday on the telly recently. What about the viewing figures when sailing is on telly? It's not exactly a spectator friendly sport, and certainly can't compete in excitement terms with a loony flying down a hill on two planks at 80mph (but then I am biased). |
People at work know I'm interested in sailing & skiing - not once have i had someone ever remark to me about some skiing they'd happened to watch on TV. However I've had a number of comments along the lines of 'I saw that Ben Ainslie having a go at that Brazilian guy - amazing effort and great to watch, even though I don't think I understood all of what he was doing' - true that's only in the Olympics and it does drop off the general radar scope outside those events, but
| Dr John wrote: |
My main point is that skiing has the potential to be marketed much more & better than it currently is to those not immediately involved in order to increase viewing figures, whereas sailing is a much harder sell. |
Is downhill ski racing that interesting to the man on the street - no I don't think so. I'm a keen skier and I find it only vaguely interesting when it's from places I've been too. I think skier cross has more appeal as it's a head to head format and may relate more to similar formats sofa surfers may have seen in other sports (BMXcross / Motocross etc). Unfortunately when the opportunity was there with Weymouth2012 & foling moths to have a 'sailingcross' type event the International governing body didn't jump at the chance and so the opportunity for sofa-surfer accessible sailing event formats was reduced.
Back on topic
Even as a keen skier I can't say I understood the differences between SSGB, BASI and SKGB or really cared for that matter. Perhaps that's symptomatic of the failings that have left us in this situation....still if someone puts up a justgiving type page for the winter olympic team then I'll be more than happy to make a contribution.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
SSGB - Snowsports GB - runs (ran ) international competitive sports
BASI - British Association of Snowsports Instructors - commercial organisation that is the professional accreditation/training body for instructors
SCGB - Ski Club of Great Britain - a national club for recreational skiers/boarders. No governing body authority for anything.
For a skier to confuse those is a bit worrying. For a recreational skier to confuse SSGB, SSE, SSW, SSS is more reasonable - as these organisations really only have relevance to competition skiers. Overlap also occurs as a coach/instructor between BASI/SSE/SSW/SSS
Way back when (even predating DG  ), SCGB was also involved in running competitive snowsports, but hasn't for several decades. You could argue that they could all be combined into one (I assume your point is that RYA covers everything is sailing), but the separation does mean that each organisation can concentrate on their core activity. |
Why is it worrying to confuse that lot - they're ALL pretty irrelevant for 95% of the people participating in the sport - and isn't that that a good explanation behind the problem - the sport always suffers when it has multiple governing bodies..
Boxing - who's a world champ - well there's currently 3 or 4 different 'world champs' at the same weight level - WBA, WBO, IBF etc
Darts - you have the lot in frimley and the other lot in lakeside - who knows/cares about the diffeence
and I'm sure there's more...ok so that's more the international side, but it strikes me as strange that in the UK the instructing, national 'club', and competitive elements in skiing are all split. This makes it harder for the 'punter skier' to support directly the elite level athletes as there's no cross-pollination between say an SKGB event an SSGB event so those you've got a lot of rich people in England who love to go skiing as per the original article never get an opportunity to drop their hands in their pockets.
As you note sailing has the RYA and British Cycling represents all ends of it's spectrum.. funny to see how well those NGO's are doing compared to the ballsup in Snowports...
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bertie bassett, I'll give you polo, but not golf. I understood that there were very few competitive yngling boats/crew in the world (12, I seem to remember being mentioned), because it is prohibitively expensive, and therefore couldn't justify it's place as an Olympic sport. I'm sure spin can (and has) be applied to avoid the accusation of elitism.
I accept that basic boating can be had at reasonable cost, but how many people actually do it? (I haven't a clue, but 1.5 million+ go skiing every year so interested in a comparison)
Based on observation, british sporting viewing figures are not dictated by participation in a sport (outside the big 4, football, cricket, rugby, tennis) instead it is driven by British competitors success in the sport. I suggest the reason people know who Ben Ainslie is is because he is an Olympic champion and, rightly, received blanket coverage during the Olympics. If we had a genuine medal contender in skiing/snowboarding I'd wager that their public profile would increase accordingly. Alan Baxter was front page news when he got his bronze remember (unfortunately was front page news all over again for rather unfortunate reasons).
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Is downhill ski racing that interesting to the man on the street - no I don't think so
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Any yet Ski Sunday has been running since 1978 and have regular viewing figures of 1.5-2 million, so someone out there is interested, even when there is only a slim chance of seeing a british competitor even compete, let alone get anywhere near the top 10.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dr John wrote: |
bertie bassett, I'll give you polo, but not golf. I understood that there were very few competitive yngling boats/crew in the world (12, I seem to remember being mentioned), because it is prohibitively expensive, and therefore couldn't justify it's place as an Olympic sport. I'm sure spin can (and has) be applied to avoid the accusation of elitism.
I accept that basic boating can be had at reasonable cost, but how many people actually do it? (I haven't a clue, but 1.5 million+ go skiing every year so interested in a comparison)
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According to this 2002 study (Table 1), http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_compendia/sport&leisure.pdf
Approximately 3.3% of the population had participated in skiing in the previous 12 months, while approximately 2.4% of the population had participated in Sailing (about the same as cricket).
They are quite close together in popularity, and both are more popular than sports such as Rugby or Hockey, much less popular than ones such as badminton or soccer.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| Maybe one difference is that there is no licence required for any type of recreational snowsports, whereas for sailling you need things like Yachmaster etc.. So in skiing there is no need for a recreational skier to interact with any governing body |
There's no need for a recreational sailor to interact with any governing body either - a license is NOT required for sailing, motorboating, kayaking, windsurfing or jetskiing. You could buy a boat today and be out on the open ocean tomorrow and no-one can stop you.
There are some commercially run facilities and /or private clubs that require a minimum recreational standard to be able to hire a boat which can be demonstrated by an appropriate certificate, but that's not really any different too indoor slopes requiring use of pomas and linked turns to use the main slope.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| roga wrote: |
| Really the only place in the UK where you get a sense that snowsports are a part of local culture is in the Aviemore area |
The current top female and male alpine racers come from, respectively, Twickenham and Kingston. Of the 14 racers in the WC and Europa squads I think there are three from the Aviemore area, and they are easily outnumbered by those who have home towns in the Home Counties. |
fair dues, but I think there is more of a heritage / historical link around these parts, monuments about the place to the 14 or whatever olympians (many related to each other ) the area has produced etc., and obviously inextricably linked to the entire economy of the region - skie centre tourism etc. Certainly the past few weeks in its winter coat, Aviemore has felt very much the ski resort
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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GrahamN bertie bassett, I think what you're both missing is that a fair number of people ski but only a small minority are 'skiers'!
Why on earth would anyone just going for a one off holiday in the Alps, or even yearly, know anything about bodies governing the sport in the UK? Now if participating in the sport over here you'd stand a far better chance of knowing about some of the bodies, most likely BASI who have their logo on websites like Hemel's or SSE/SSS, more often seen at dry slopes, and many instructors wear the badge as well. Of course the latter are also involved with racing in their 'regions' so participants would likely know of them as a result. Again up in Scotland, where there is much local involvement in snowsports in some areas, you'd be pretty likely to come upon the logos of or posters from some of these organisations, at the very least on a ski instructors jacket or on snow safety leaflets handed out by the ski areas.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| roga wrote: |
| GrahamN bertie bassett, I think what you're both missing is that a fair number of people ski but only a small minority are 'skiers'! |
That's quite an important point. If you look at many other sports where people participate regularly, it's often through a club where a membership is paid, which in turn feeds in part to the National Governing Body. I'm thinking Badminton (BAE), Tennis (LTA), ASA (Competitive Swimming) etc. etc.
In part, that fee covers insurance but I'm fairly sure that some of the National Governing Body fee's go towards supporting their respective National teams and competitors.
One of the problems with skiing is that very few participants are members of a ski club, and therefore do not support Snowsport England\Scotland\Wales\Ireland whom I assume in-turn contribute to Snowsports GB who look after the International competition.
With so very little money flowing from the participating public to the National Governing bodies, I assume that their respective Coaching schemes represent a critical revenue stream - hence the lack of agreement during the 'modernisation' process.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've posted this on snowsports as well but, for those interested, British coaches and athletes have now been informed that Snowsport GB (British Ski & Snowboard Federation Ltd) has gone into administration. It'll be in the papers tomorrow.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bode Swiller, what happens next?
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We all return to 118 Eaton Square and have another go.
Historical note: the National Ski Federation of Great Britain (I think that was its original name) was hosted by the SCGB at Eaton Square for many years, after the Ski Club lost its role as the governing body of British ski racing.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| I've posted this on snowsports as well but, for those interested, British coaches and athletes have now been informed that Snowsport GB (British Ski & Snowboard Federation Ltd) has gone into administration. It'll be in the papers tomorrow. |
Bl**dy hell, we knew it was coming but still a shock!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stoatsbrother, a number of theories floating about. In order of probability:
(1=) The home nations set up a new fed
(1=) The BOA set one up
(3) BASI get involved somehow (Sir Clive Woodward is BASI Chairman and Performance Director of BOA so there's an obvious tie up)
(4) Ski Club of Great Britain take it back in house
The fall out isn't too good. Looks like those unpaid coaches, ski techs and physios will remain unpaid. HQ staff are out of a job one assumes. Any athletes owed money by SnowsportGB will become creditors (one is allegedly owed £20k). Any athletes who owe money to SnowsportGB will now be pursued by the administrator. Events like the British champs must be in doubt.
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Ernst Goldsmith, Out of interest (and I don't know if you are the best person to ask) is there any reason why SCGB isn't affiliated with one of the HNGB's given it's size of membership ?
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