 Poster: A snowHead
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Richard Williams of the Guardian has interviewed Konrad Bartelski, who resigned from team selection duties in the thick of the financial meltdown affecting British Olympic skiing. Konrad provides some insight into the crisis:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/jan/26/winter-olympics-funding-crisis-konrad-bartelski
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Two weeks ahead of the start of the Winter Olympics, the effect on the competitors' morale can be imagined. "When you realise, going into the most important event of your career, that the athletes don't come first, then you're never going to get a gold medal," Bartelski says.
"Chemmy is a world-class competitor, but with two weeks to go someone has opened a trapdoor under her feet. When you go to bed at night in that kind of state, at a time when you're needing all the rest you can get, your head just spins.". |
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| "On the one hand," Bartelski says, "you've got a lot of rich people in England who love to go skiing, and on the other you've got these skiers who put in an enormous effort. There really ought to be a way of connecting the two. |
What is the silver bullet? And can Chemmy fly above that trapdoor?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
"On the one hand," Bartelski says, "you've got a lot of rich people in England who love to go skiing, and on the other you've got these skiers who put in an enormous effort. There really ought to be a way of connecting the two.
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I suggest that Mr Bartelski has a look at the low number of viewers of skiing on TV, even if each viewer gave a couple of quid it wouldn't pay for the fuel for the team Range Rovers.
Recreational skiers are not neccesarily interested in ski racing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| you've got a lot of rich people in England who love to go skiing, and on the other you've got these skiers who put in an enormous effort. There really ought to be a way of connecting the two. |
I can't see the logic of that. I don't regard myself as 'rich' - but I ski recreationally. And whilst I get a vaguely warm glow if an English skier does well, I wouldn't wish to be taxed more to continue to support his or her Olympic ambition. I do agree that there has been a shambles for the competitors this time around, though - and have some sympathy with them.
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| Ernst Goldsmith wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "On the one hand," Bartelski says, "you've got a lot of rich people in England who love to go skiing, and on the other you've got these skiers who put in an enormous effort. There really ought to be a way of connecting the two. |
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As one of the so called rich skiers Bartelski is maybe referring to I couldn't really give a toss about the Olympics other than hoping that Annecy doesn't win the 2018 games and another bit of the Savoie is despoiled by meglomaniac developers (actually I pay money to campaign against the Annecy games).
The Olympics, to me, is one big corrupt circus. The last winter games to have any soul was probably Squaw Valley, since then it has been junkets and pork barrels.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| Recreational skiers are not neccesarily interested in ski racing. |
But they are interested in the equipment developments and coaching benefits that have come out of it.
Chemmy's performance in Cortina (a DNF in the DH and and not qualifying for the 2nd run of the GS) was probably connected to non-skiing issues. Just hope she can rise above it all in Vancouver.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
I suggest that Mr Bartelski has a look at the low number of viewers of skiing on TV, even if each viewer gave a couple of quid it wouldn't pay for the fuel for the team Range Rovers.
Recreational skiers are not neccesarily interested in ski racing. |
Indeed, and not to have forseen this current clusterf*** given the events of the last few years is perhaps a little naive of him too?
Perhaps the future hope for the olympics reach and for the UK teams funding might better come from emphasis on the "newer" events rather than the traditional gate-runners and downhillers?
I have deep sympathy for the current athletes - and have suggested to plugboy he look at a donate page for TJ, which I would happily click on.
But UK skiing organisations need to get their houses in order and decreased in number before I am happy to see any government money go to them, and may be this crisis is what is needed to bang their heads together?
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| Ernst Goldsmith wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "On the one hand," Bartelski says, "you've got a lot of rich people in England who love to go skiing, and on the other you've got these skiers who put in an enormous effort. There really ought to be a way of connecting the two. |
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This was picked up on here when it was suggested a 'surcharge' on ski/wintersports holidays might be a way of directly funding the athletes. Okay, logistically it could be a nightmare, but all things have to start somewhere.
We've contributed to both Ed Drake and Dave Ryding's funds this year by Will taking part in 'benefit' races for them. If we could, we'd happily give a damn site more - but then I guess we do have the interest in ski racing that makes us want to help.
| davidof wrote: |
| The Olympics, to me, is one big corrupt circus. The last winter games to have any soul was probably Squaw Valley, since then it has been junkets and pork barrels. |
True though this may be (and I have to say I'm in agreement), should we really take it out on our athletes? I think not.
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| Jon.L wrote: |
| ......This was picked up on here... |
Yes, it's a pity that the OP couldn't be bothered to post in that thread, keeping the topic together. It's also a pity that the mods seem to have no way of hoovering up a thread like this and dropping it into the original thread.
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| ...when it was suggested a 'surcharge' on ski/wintersports holidays might be a way of directly funding the athletes... |
So, effectively another tax or cost which I would not want to pay. I wonder how the owners of B&Bs at, say, Aviemore would feel about their guests paying this extra costs.
| Quote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| The Olympics, to me, is one big corrupt circus. The last winter games to have any soul was probably Squaw Valley, since then it has been junkets and pork barrels. |
True though this may be (and I have to say I'm in agreement), should we really take it out on our athletes? I think not. |
I don't think we should take anything out on our athletes. However, I don't see that in order that I don't 'take anything out' I should have to fork out money for them. They chose to compete, I did not ask them to.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ernst Goldsmith wrote: |
Richard Williams of the Guardian has interviewed Konrad Bartelski, who resigned from team selection duties in the thick of the financial meltdown affecting British Olympic skiing. Konrad provides some insight into the crisis:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/jan/26/winter-olympics-funding-crisis-konrad-bartelski
| Quote: |
Two weeks ahead of the start of the Winter Olympics, the effect on the competitors' morale can be imagined. "When you realise, going into the most important event of your career, that the athletes don't come first, then you're never going to get a gold medal," Bartelski says.
"Chemmy is a world-class competitor, but with two weeks to go someone has opened a trapdoor under her feet. When you go to bed at night in that kind of state, at a time when you're needing all the rest you can get, your head just spins.". |
| Quote: |
| "On the one hand," Bartelski says, "you've got a lot of rich people in England who love to go skiing, and on the other you've got these skiers who put in an enormous effort. There really ought to be a way of connecting the two. |
What is the silver bullet? And can Chemmy fly above that trapdoor? |
They have the British Disease.
Underinvestment and weak decisionmaking.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Boredsurfing, quite. Hoteliers can take care of themselves 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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achilles,  The B&B Ladies are a forced to be reckoned with in these parts. To my knowledge they have stopped budget motels being built on at least two sites!
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 26-01-10 11:10; edited 1 time in total
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Funding of sports should be voluntary.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
They have the British Disease
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Whitegold, would that be the same British Disease that our highly successful Beijing Olympics team had? Or our bob and skeleton teams for that matter.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| achilles wrote: |
| Jon.L wrote: |
| ...when it was suggested a 'surcharge' on ski/wintersports holidays might be a way of directly funding the athletes... |
So, effectively another tax or cost which I would not want to pay. I wonder how the owners of B&Bs at, say, Aviemore would feel about their guests paying this extra costs. |
A bit more funding may mean a bit more success. A bit more success may mean more people going skiing.....I think the B&B owners may warm to that idea. Ever noticed that the popularity in footbal gets even bigger than it is already when World Cups come around? Or, probably more relevant, the huge increase in the popularity of rugby around the end of 2003?
| achilles wrote: |
| I don't think we should take anything out on our athletes. However, I don't see that in order that I don't 'take anything out' I should have to fork out money for them. They chose to compete, I did not ask them to. |
| laundryman wrote: |
| Funding of sports should be voluntary. |
Linking back to the original thread, I also suggested an 'opt-out' for the surcharge so those that didn't want to didn't have to.....
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Poster: A snowHead
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theres plenty of other sports here and in other countries that are under funded or poorly managed by federations...conversely to the ski racing, British freeski scene seems pretty well sorted, can't see people like paddy graham struggling to make events, trends and money shifts with the times.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 26-01-10 11:20; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| achilles wrote: |
| Jon.L wrote: |
| ......This was picked up on here... |
Yes, it's a pity that the OP couldn't be bothered to post in that thread, keeping the topic together. It's also a pity that the mods seem to have no way of hoovering up a thread like this and dropping it into the original thread. |
Other makes of vacuum cleaner are available.
achilles, we all appreciate your love of tidiness, dusting and general housekeeping. Maybe this forum should become an offshoot of Good Housekeeping Magazine, with regular guides to "finding the ideal net-nanny".
Some people, above, are being a bit hard on Konrad. I like him, and have always liked him, ever since I first met him near Zell am See, driving an open-top sportscar. A bunch of us were up on the Kitzsteinhorn, doing a freestyle ski camp. He's a friendly guy, who likes showing people around mountains. You always have a great day, skiing with Konrad.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Ernst Goldsmith wrote: |
Some people, above, are being a bit hard on Konrad. |
are they? I don't see that and we are not beiing hard on the athletes either. The Olympics, I wouldn't wish it on any country, other than maybe China with their ego problems.
The British athlete's governing body, of which Konrad was a part, got into this mess, it is tough, I'm sorry for Chemmy and those Kurling gals. Maybe Kondrad can sell his sports car to raise some cash? That said, when a company I worked for went bust I lost my job and had to find another, I doubt Konrad will find a lot of sympathy in the UK at the moment.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just to hit Konrad with a big fat cluestick. In the UK it is generally poor people who have funded Britain's recent Olympic success through the lottery. The rich didn't get to be rich by letting folks like Konrad dip into their pockets.
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davidof, SSGB post wasn't Konrad's day job. Like loads of people involved in SSGB, it was voluntary and unpaid. What racers need frankly is a bit more of Konrad's spirit and attitude. Remember it was he that ditched the BSF and went out alone as the Dutch Ski Team and managed to break into the top tier of downhill. By that time he was back in the GB camp. He was pretty-much unfunded and up against mighty Austrian/Swiss/French/Italian/Canadian/USA teams - the gap then in terms of training, support and equipment would have been greater than today yet he still made it.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| What racers need frankly is a bit more of Konrad's spirit and attitude. Remember it was he that ditched the BSF and went out alone as the Dutch Ski Team and managed to break into the top tier of downhill. |
Another part of the problem. Why can't the British athletes fire their federation and set up a new body? I've been involved in cycle sport and before people like Peter Keen got involved it was a nest of vipers with little interest in the sport itself. I maintain what I said above though. Konrad will not get anywhere squeezing the rich. The sport's governing bodies need to be reformed and a degree of professionalism instilled and also they need to play to their strengths, which at the moment is in freeskiing and snowboarding and luge/bob events where the UK has a long history of being competitive.
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Konrad will not get anywhere squeezing the rich.
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To some extent he already does. He's one of the figures behind The Christies Ski Auction. That raises (from the rich mainly) a pot of dosh that goes back into snowsports although I don't know how much or where it goes. Perhaps someone out there can say.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ernst Goldsmith wrote: |
| .....achilles, we all appreciate your love of tidiness, dusting and general housekeeping. Maybe this forum should become an offshoot of Good Housekeeping Magazine, with regular guides to "finding the ideal net-nanny"..... |
Slovenly posting, or simply posting of new threads to gain the poster personal attention (that wouldn't be you, would it?) is a major reason why the site's search facility is so useless. It also makes it hard to follw a sequence of thought on one subject.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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[quote="Bode Swiller"]
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That raises (from the rich mainly) a pot of dosh that goes back into snowsports although I don't know how much or where it goes. Perhaps someone out there can say. |
My freind Adam sullivan who was a olympic slalom competitor is the main organiser of this event. We gave away a holiday for two at the event. and all the funds go to the GB team no commision is taken.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| achilles wrote: |
Slovenly posting, or simply posting of new threads to gain the poster personal attention (that wouldn't be you, would it?) is a major reason why the site's search facility is so useless. |
On the first point, I did consider posting into the existing thread on the British Olympic Team, but decided that Konrad might be drawing personal attention to himself ... and that we might induce him to plunging in and having a chat if a thread was dedicated to him.
On the second point, I'm happy to be blamed for the uselessness of the snowHeads search facility. Anything else you'd like to blame me for - the state of the pavements in Lincoln, for instance?
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You know it makes sense.
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Konrad has a very good point with the "rich British skier" thing, there are a huge amount of them who invest many millions in private ventures in the Alps. Speaking about Verbier alone there has been the buyout of Chez Danny, the development of Chalet Kernow and Branson's much reported The Lodge (good article on it here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/high-society-swiss-face-a-very-british-invasion-432858.html).
I'm speaking here with no inside knowledge of the political machinations within the British Skiing organisation or the caliber of those involved, but it shouldn't be beyond the wit of the committee to tap-up the many existing British investors and come to some sort of sponsorship/corporate hospitality arrangement? Now I appreciate that Kernow/Chez Danny/The Lodge have no problem selling out the entire season even at the prices they charge and may even want to maintain and quiet air of exclusivity, but I don't believe that a competent marketeer can't come up with some sort of cash generating scheme that will at least cover the shortfall.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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So we can fund our olympic syncronised swimming team but not our skiers????????????????????????
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Poster: A snowHead
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redrunmarcus, not forgetting the many different sailing teams, and if there's a more elitist sport than sailing I've yet to hear about it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Dr John, If you go to any inland sailing club on a Sunday afternoon I don't think that you wil find it in any way elistist.
Anybody can access dinghy sailing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| Recreational skiers are not neccesarily interested in ski racing. |
But they are interested in the equipment developments and coaching benefits that have come out of it. |
Not really. Ninety percent of them still skid around the mountain the same what they did twenty years ago. Even if they have an interest in new equipment, they haven't got a clue how to use it. Most people do two weeks of instruction when they start then never bother again. Your average punter derives next to no benefit from ski racing.
SSGB was doomed to fail from the outset because it's dominated by by weirdos who would rather squabble over resources than pull together. In the end all the normal people will just walk away.
If these dinosaurs concentrated more on the kids and less on races for old men, they might actually achieve something. Imagine the Football Association putting half its resources into footy for the over 40's, there would be a public outcry and questions asked in the House!
SSGB, I effing sh*t 'em.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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cockofthenorth, How's your Seniors (or is it Vets) season coming along 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Some interesting comments here and I agree that Konrad perhaps misses the point that most recreational skiers in the UK don't really give a stuff about ski racing, for them it's a once a year holiday and that's it rich or otherwise. There may be rich chalet owners and all the rest but I'd be surprised if they could manage to soak them for cash, frankly IMHO the problem ultimately is the fact that we don't generally have a culture that understands, encourages and is supportive of competitive snowsports.
Really the only place in the UK where you get a sense that snowsports are a part of local culture is in the Aviemore area and look at how many competitors they've produced. This is a place where, even off the hill, as has happened to me, you can walk into the local bookshop and get chatting with the person behind the counter who turns out to be the mother of a former British team racer or go along to an Xmas celebration and end up talking to the mother of Alain Baxter and the aunt of Leslie McKenna. Personally I think that as well as anything else we might all remember that that unique culture also needs to be supported and encouraged and perhaps out of it will grow more competitors and a more successful system of training and support across the whole of the UK.
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roga, very good points, and it was noticeable that Alain Baxter - hero of Aviemore - did not receive critical support from certain movers and shakers down south, in the middle of his crisis with the IOC.
How all this would be different if Baxter's bronze had not been grabbed back from him.
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| PJSki wrote: |
SSGB was doomed to fail from the outset because it's dominated by by weirdos who would rather squabble over resources than pull together. In the end all the normal people will just walk away.
If these dinosaurs concentrated more on the kids and less on races for old men, they might actually achieve something. Imagine the Football Association putting half its resources into footy for the over 40's, there would be a public outcry and questions asked in the House! |
What age do you suggest still counts as a "kid" ?
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what about "ski idol" i,ve always been surprised that with all these reality tv programmes that no one has produced one, i think it would take off, remember (like him or not) when eddie the eagle was around the profile rose alot,so with a bunch of Z listers on the slopes who knows
simon where are you
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not being British i've no interest in Snowsports GB, they're racers or how they do. However i do see a massive myopia on this thread from certain posters regarding how you as a nation do in these events.
The simple fact of the matter is it's ludicrous to compare yourselves to any alpine nations cause there is effectively no skiing in the UK other than limited niche areas in scotland. So being realistic about it there is never going to be an effective widespread youth training model like they have in France or Austria because you've no skiable mountains. It doesn't matter how well or badly run, or for that matter well or badly financed SSGB is without this any British ski racing team is never going to be truely competitive. You are only occasionally going to produce talented racers who will get in the top 20, with once in a blue moon someone surpassing this mark.
The comparison with British cycling is foolhardy because anyone can get on a bike anywhere in Britain & learn to cycle & there are local cycling clubs who will push on talented youths. It just happens to be the case that British cycling has a very good model for making the most of these. And taking that to another level if you remove the niche element of track racing name a recent great British TDF racer other than mark cavendish the sprinter, prior to him it's been a long time since there's been a British competitor truely worth shouting about.
The sailing analogy posted by someone else on this thread is also a poor one. Ignoring for a minute the money & snobbery in high level off shore sailing. Firstly olympic sailing events are all dinghy events. To train for these all you need is the relevant dinghy & a lake/sea. Something the UK has lots of. Whilst there's no doubt some of Britain's higher level sailors definitely have advantages this is not a requirement to get to that level.
As to other snowsports, British athletes are competitive in realistically the ice track events. Which do not need the same level of training on course as say the alpine skiing events. So with this it is possible for British competitors to be competitive. You're kidding yourselves if you really think you're competitive in the freestyle events. I think the reality is as a whole you're possibly just less uncompetitive than the alpine events.
Now when you add all of these factors in to the mix. Then add on to that SSGB's incredibly bad management of the funding they have had it's very hard to see why your government would pump any more funding into it in normal economic times. Let alone in the current mother of all recessions.
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| frank4short wrote: |
| Not being British i've no interest in Snowsports GB |
You then devote six short paragraphs to them, frank6short
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