 Poster: A snowHead
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@Haggis_Trap, ^ +1
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Haggis_Trap, if he would be, he would get his medal back  That's how things works. I agree with second point though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sorry but IMHO Divina beats Alain, Alain had a 4th place in one WC Slalom and 3 top 10 finishes plus the (should have been 3rd place in the Olympics), But Divina managed 2WC Podiums, was ranked 6th in the world in 68 (Downhill) and 10th in the world (GS) she went to 4 Olympic games, twice as team captain, and twice finishing in the top 10 in Slalom, and then 28 years after her first Olympics in 64 she returned in 1992 in the speed skiing event (she also held the British women's downhill skiing speed record at 125 mph) given that she competed in 4 disciplines and did well in all of them surely that has to make her better than Alain ?
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I'm the greatest skier of all time 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| primoz wrote: |
| So he got his medal back? I don't think so. So no, he didn't win medal. Medals in Salt Lake were won by Vidal (gold), Amiez (silver) and Raich (bronze). And besides, his appeal to FIS was successful, while he lost his case against IOC. It really is as simple as that. There's no if's but's and god knows what else. He didn't win medal, end of discussion. |
No one is saying he got his medal back. There are two assertions:
1 - he wasn't a drug cheat
2 - he is on the short list for best ever UK skier
& I'll keep discussing it as long as I choose.
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| Dot. wrote: |
| I'm the greatest skier of all time |
me too
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Joey Essex
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| 1 - he wasn't a drug cheat |
Well considering he lost medal due doping offense, he was, if you count those who failed doping test as drug cheats. If you don't, then of course he wasn't, but then Lance Armstrong wasn't either ;)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| primoz wrote: |
| midgetbiker wrote: |
| 1 - he wasn't a drug cheat |
Well considering he lost medal due doping offense, he was, if you count those who failed doping test as drug cheats. If you don't, then of course he wasn't, but then Lance Armstrong wasn't either |
.... yes, lost his medal : but was was officially cleared, by the IOC, of being a cheat or any deliberate wrong doing.
"He was cleared of deliberate wrongdoing but because of the International Olympic Committee's strict liability rule, Baxter had his medal, result and ranking points taken away."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/winter_sports/4614496.stm
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Sure. One thing is BBC article, which is probably 110% accurate, and the other is CAS document from 15th of October 2002, where it says pretty clearly:
The Court of Arbitration for Sport:
1. Denies the appeal filed by Mr. Baxter and upholds the ruling of the IOC Executive Board disqualifying Alain Baxter from the men‟s alpine skiing slalom event at the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics, withdrawing his Bronze medal and diploma, and excluding him from the XIX Olympic Winter Games, Salt Lake City 2002.
I admit my English is far from good, but that still doesn't really sound as "they cleared him of wrongdoing". Thing is, he went to CAS to overule IOC decision, and he lost that appeal, so original decision is still valid. It's not really about IOC "strict liability rule" that he didn't get medal back, but simply because original statement still stands. He was positive and that still stands. Why he tested positive is pretty irrelevant and noone really cares about.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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^ lets not re-write history.
"In its judgement CAS said Baxter was a "sincere and honest man who did not gain a competitive advantage despite the trace of lev-methamphetamine in his system."
"CAS agreed with him and in its summary recommended the IOC change its rule on the drug The IOC may wish at some time to distinguish between the two isomers of methamphetamine and to introduce a threshold as it has done in the case of other stimulants such as caffeine..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/winterolympics2002/hi/english/alpine_skiing/newsid_2341000/2341143.stm
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Once again... what BBC writes is irrelevant. Real document is here:
http://jurisprudence.tas-cas.org/sites/CaseLaw/Shared%20Documents/376.pdf
And it doesn't include anything where you could get impression he would be cleared of wrongdoings. Only thing what that document does say is this what I quoted before. What BBC or Baxter says, or what you think is irrelevant, CAS case is there to stay, and it doesn't clear him of anything, and just confirms doping offense.
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^ if you insist on quotes direct from the CAS document then let me take 2 minutes and provide these for you.
it is very obvious that he was cleared of deliberate wrong doing or cheating.
however the rules (whilst perhaps wrong) had to be adhered too.
"The Panel finds Mr. Baxter‟s story to be sincere and compelling."
" at the levels found in Mr. Baxter‟s body it is very unlikely that the levmetamfetamine had any stimulant
effect."
"specifically describes levmetamfetamine and the Vicks Vapor Inhaler within the description of
methamphetamine"
"The IOC may wish to consider at some time whether to distinguish between the two isomers
of methamphetamine and to introduce a threshold as it has done in the case of other
stimulants, such as caffeine. "
"The Panel is not without sympathy for Mr. Baxter, who appears to be a sincere and honest
man who did not intend to obtain a competitive advantage in the race. It is unfortunate that,
for whatever reason, he did not see the term levmetamfetamine on the package he bought or
did not understand its import, and that he did not consult with his team doctor before taking
the medication. Nevertheless, because Mr. Baxter took the medication, at the time of his
slalom race his body contained a prohibited substance"
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You know it makes sense.
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Eddie The Eagle 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Haggis_Trap serious? As I wrote before, my English is definitely not great, but that doesn't sound anything as "clearing him of wrong doings". On the other hand, already first point says all:
Consistent CAS case law has held that athletes are strictly responsible for substances they place in their body and that for purposes of disqualification (as opposed to suspension), neither intent nor negligence needs to be proven by the sanctioning body. Article 2.2 of Chapter II of the Olympic Movement Anti Doping Code (OMAC) states that doping is the “presence in the body of a prohibited substance”, whether or not intentional or negligent, can affect the results of the event so that the presence of the substance is sufficient to find a doping violation.
Being sincere and compelling after you tested positive has very little effect to this, just as "having sympathy for Mr. Baxter". Officially, he doped and was striped of his medal. So yes he was doping cheat, and no he didn't win medal, and as far as I'm concerned, that's it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yes : serious.
Whilst he was stripped of the medal (rules are rules) your use of the word cheat in this context is wrong.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| primoz wrote: |
| ....and he's in exactly same boat as Lance Armstrong or previously mentioned Sachenbacher or Contador. |
Lance Armstrong was deliberately cheating and trying to systematically avoid detection.
Not only that - he also gained competitive advantage from the drugs he took.
Clearly a very different scenario.
I don't think you are too stupid to understand that concept - so my only guess is that you are trying to provoke a reaction ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Britain's greatest ever skier? Isn't that a slightly pointless question? We're all cr@p.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Is being ranked 30 in the word crap?
Way better than we are at foosball!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Btw this comment regards current UK racers.
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^ generally the UK are a nation of holidaying punters ? 
but at the top level we usually have some good athletes ?
especially at present in freestyle (ski / board) & x-country.
plus BASI are well respected globally - and one of the bigger non alpine instructor assocations ?
plus we have some great ski steep skiers in Chamonix / respected mountain guides.
we don't do badly.
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Ha
@Haggis_Trap, It's Fraser Lamont here. How you doing?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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nae bad
though hope you are not mistaking me for the other (older) "dougie bryce"
coaches with LSRA at Hillend ?
wouldn't be the first time it has happened.....
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Dunno buddy. I am frasèr from grantown on spey then edinburģh.
I was on the team wth gibobnns and galloway!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dot. wrote: |
| I'm the greatest skier of all time |
We know - but you ain't a Brit!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| Sorry but IMHO Divina beats Alain, Alain had a 4th place in one WC Slalom and 3 top 10 finishes plus the (should have been 3rd place in the Olympics), But Divina managed 2WC Podiums, was ranked 6th in the world in 68 (Downhill) and 10th in the world (GS) she went to 4 Olympic games, twice as team captain, and twice finishing in the top 10 in Slalom, and then 28 years after her first Olympics in 64 she returned in 1992 in the speed skiing event (she also held the British women's downhill skiing speed record at 125 mph) given that she competed in 4 disciplines and did well in all of them surely that has to make her better than Alain ? |
Very hard to look beyond the above. Very impressive.
Perhaps there could be sub-categories for freestyle, freeride, cross-country etc
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| Dot. wrote: |
| I'm the greatest skier of all time |
We know - but you ain't a Brit! |
Quite right, he's disqualified on a technicality, so it is me, told you all so!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
@Haggis_Trap serious? As I wrote before, my English is definitely not great
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@primoz, actually (& seriously) your comment about English could be at the root of why you & @Haggis_Trap are at loggerheads here. Whilst there is no doubt that the rules were broken, and so there is a valid reason for the disqual despite circumstances or intent, the word 'cheat' and more particularly being 'a cheat' has an implication in English of intent (to break rules in order to gain advantage). Hence the objection to AB being called a cheat despite the proven breach of the rules.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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This statement
| Quote: |
| Alberto Contador tested positive for clenbuterol, which he got by eating contaminated steak. |
should read
"Alberto Contador tested positive for clenbuterol, which he claims he got by eating contaminated steak."
Subsequent analysis showed that, compared to his bio passport, Contador's haemoglobin levels were abnormal. This led the UCI and Wada to suggest that this was consistent with blood doping.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| D G Orf wrote: |
| Sorry but IMHO Divina beats Alain, Alain had a 4th place in one WC Slalom and 3 top 10 finishes plus the (should have been 3rd place in the Olympics), But Divina managed 2WC Podiums, was ranked 6th in the world in 68 (Downhill) and 10th in the world (GS) she went to 4 Olympic games, twice as team captain, and twice finishing in the top 10 in Slalom, and then 28 years after her first Olympics in 64 she returned in 1992 in the speed skiing event (she also held the British women's downhill skiing speed record at 125 mph) given that she competed in 4 disciplines and did well in all of them surely that has to make her better than Alain ? |
Very hard to look beyond the above. Very impressive.
Perhaps there could be sub-categories for freestyle, freeride, cross-country etc |
Embarrassed to say I had never heard of Divina Galica until now (different era way before my time).
As well as skiing at 4 Olympics + world cup podiums he also raced formula 1 !?
A valid claim to the "title" indeed!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divina_Galica
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Divina was speed skiing at Les Arcs beyond the age of 50 - a lady with serious levels of bottle
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| at0mic wrote: |
Is being ranked 30 in the word crap?
Way better than we are at foosball! |
Well, I'd suggest that being ranked 30th is pretty rubbish bearing in mind our size, wealth and how many coutries don't ski at all, but not unsurprising considering our topography. (Where did you find ranking by country? Or did you mean we once had someone who ranked 30th?) I'd argue we're pretty crap at football too even if our ranking is a bit better (14th for England, and 30th for Scotland). If you really did mean foosball or fussball then I'm not sure about rankings.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| at0mic wrote: |
Is being ranked 30 in the word crap?
Way better than we are at foosball! |
Well, I'd suggest that being ranked 30th is pretty rubbish bearing in mind our size, wealth and how many coutries don't ski at all, but not unsurprising considering our topography. (Where did you find ranking by country? Or did you mean we once had someone who ranked 30th?) I'd argue we're pretty crap at football too even if our ranking is a bit better (14th for England, and 30th for Scotland). If you really did mean foosball or fussball then I'm not sure about rankings. |
I'd say 30th out of approximately 115 million (http://www.isiaski.org/download/20140517_ISIA_Vuokatti_1b_presentation_vanat.pdf) is pretty damn impressive!!
EDIT: Wait, was 30th an individual position, or of British skiing as a group?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@clarky999, I presumed that 30th was our current national place in the league tables. If it was the highest ever individual position in FIS tables then that's pretty atrocious. It's certainly not current individual position for a Brit as we don't feature in the top 150 places.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| It's certainly not current individual position for a Brit as we don't feature in the top 150 places. |
Alex Tilley is ranked 31st in GS and 92nd in SL.
Dave Ryding is ranked 52nd in SL and will be in the top 30 on the World Cup Start List next winter.
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| primoz wrote: |
I totally agree... it's about British skier not Romanian weight lifter, and British skier testing positive is completely different then Romanian weight lifter testing positive
Ok on the other hand. Evi Sachenbacher, to stay closer to skiing... She tested positive in Sochi for methylhexanamine, which she got with contaminated food supplement. Cheating or not? Alberto Contador tested positive for clenbuterol, which he got by eating contaminated steak. Cheating or not?
With doping things are really pretty damn simple. Positive or not positive. It's really black and white, without any shades of gray.
PS: I actually do believe he tested positive by accident, but that doesn't mean a thing. He tested positive, and he's in exactly same boat as Lance Armstrong or previously mentioned Sachenbacher or Contador. |
Of course there's shades of gray and levels of culpability, it's clear that Lance had a systematic doping regimen designed to increase his performance and covered it up for years, it's equally clear that Baxter inadvertently took a minute amount of a banned substance once, they are not equal. There are also considerable levels of grey whilst interpreting blood doping results, given that the limits applied to some substances are relatively arbitrary.
If you choose to see things as black and white, then you are obviously free to do so, everyone else is free to think you'd be an idiot to do so.
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| jimmer wrote: |
| ... it's clear that Lance had a systematic doping regimen designed to increase his performance and covered it up for years, it's equally clear that Baxter inadvertently took a minute amount of a banned substance once. |
And remarkable (in the sense that it would be fair to make a cynical remark about it), that the Americans took 10, or was it 15 years to 'discover' that one of their own was actually cheating on the world circuit, and about 30 seconds to accuse a foreigner of 'cheating' with Vicks nasal spray on their own turf.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sure it's whatever you wish to think, and you have all rights to do so. But with doping things are really black and white only. You pass doping test or you fail it. That's it. Once you fail it, you are out. It's not like you are half out, and you sort of keep medal and your results. No you don't. Look at results of SLC SL race and see who is third.
And as CAS wrote in their ruling (sympathy doesn't mean a thing), athletes are responsible for what they take. I have been in this myself long enough (even though never even close to Olympics medal) and did quite few tests, never testing positive (with much less support then some athlete at Olympics has, yet due sport with more tests then alpine skiers had... at least at that time, and still never tested positive... and in all those years I have been sick too or was feeling bad or whatever), and I knew perfectly well how you need to deal with this. I know most of times it's pain in the ass, but you sort of learn not to go to nearby store and get whatever fits you and take it. Or well, you do, but then you don't cry when you test positive because of your stupidity.
So once again, reasons why he failed the test are irrelevant. He failed the test, he was stripped of the medal and that's it. He wasn't cleared of anything. Again, having sympathy for Mr. Baxter doesn't say they cleared him of wrong doing... Clearing so, would be accepting his appeal and not dismissing it. And again, once you fail the test, you are doper. If you are doper because you wanted to gain advantage, or because you are simply stupid is irrelevant and noone really cares. Except for few guys here obviously
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| primoz wrote: |
Sure it's whatever you wish to think, and you have all rights to do so. But with doping things are really black and white only. You pass doping test or you fail it. That's it. Once you fail it, you are out. It's not like you are half out, and you sort of keep medal and your results. No you don't. Look at results of SLC SL race and see who is third.
And as CAS wrote in their ruling (sympathy doesn't mean a thing), athletes are responsible for what they take. I have been in this myself long enough (even though never even close to Olympics medal) and did quite few tests, never testing positive (with much less support then some athlete at Olympics has, yet due sport with more tests then alpine skiers had... at least at that time, and still never tested positive... and in all those years I have been sick too or was feeling bad or whatever), and I knew perfectly well how you need to deal with this. I know most of times it's pain in the ass, but you sort of learn not to go to nearby store and get whatever fits you and take it. Or well, you do, but then you don't cry when you test positive because of your stupidity.
So once again, reasons why he failed the test are irrelevant. He failed the test, he was stripped of the medal and that's it. He wasn't cleared of anything. Again, having sympathy for Mr. Baxter doesn't say they cleared him of wrong doing... Clearing so, would be accepting his appeal and not dismissing it. And again, once you fail the test, you are doper. If you are doper because you wanted to gain advantage, or because you are simply stupid is irrelevant and noone really cares. Except for few guys here obviously |
So where does sentencing come into your black and white world of doping? Is someone given a lifetime ban the same as someone stripped of their medal but allowed to continue?
You ever hear any doping rumours on the circuit? Apparently Ivica Kostelic pretty much ran away from a super combined as he knew he was going to fail.
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FAQ
