 Poster: A snowHead
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Going back to the increased piste patrolling for a minute:
If a resort decided to pitch itself
"In future, we are going to be a hard-line resort in relation to incosiderate sliding. We will be operating increased piste patrols who will both educate and warn miscreants. Repeated offences will result in the siezing of their passes."
Do you think that this might attract more "peaceful" sliders and warn off the idiots, possibly increasing resort revenues and concnetrating the dangerous sliders in resorts with less piste patrols (though they would obviously have to have more piste rescue staff for all the on-slope injuries)?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Freddie Paellahead, exactly right. That resort would be on to a winner, especially with families and anyone else concerned with safety on the slopes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, so I wonder why a resort hasn't tried it as a marketing tool?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Freddie Paellahead, possibly because most of their customers are nowhere near as obsessed with the whole issue as are people on here.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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wouldn't they also alienate people who may be fearful of falling foul of the rules? ie groups of youngsters/experts etc. I think they would struggle to market it.
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Lizzard, agreed, as illustrated by the start of this thread, the majority seem to think that it isn't such a big deal and it is a small minority that is the problem. I have certainly seen some proper muppets on the slopes, but only a tiny tiny percentage.
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geofferson, I think it would alienate some, but encourage others. The question to the resort would be whether that would result in a net gain or a net loss of trade. I guess that's what Market Research is about (and about which I know zilch).
Lizzard, agreed this forum does discuss this problem quite a bit and  s as a group are almost certainly more aware of snow-related hazards than the average one-week-a-year punter.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Freddie Paellahead, I'm inclined to think they're just more keen on rules and regulations than average, frankly.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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hey- - maybe we should all vote for licensing cyclists as well - i forgot about them
And i've just been reminded, that to play golf on a golf course in germany you need to have a competency card signed by a Golf Professional !! Jobs for the boys (or girls) once again - and there's a life thereatening activity
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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sev112, in Germany you also need a licence to fish, and to hunt!
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Good. Irresponsible angling has a lot to answer for. As for hunting, it's also best controlled by law.
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You know it makes sense.
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sev112, you only need a licence to own a gun, not shoot one 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Freddie Paellahead wrote: |
| rob@rar, so I wonder why a resort hasn't tried it as a marketing tool? |
Several resorts market themselves as especially family-friendly, with lots of quiet zones, extensive kid's areas - Les Gets for example. Maybe only a small step from there to stating they will crack down on dangerous skiing?
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Poster: A snowHead
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shooters man-now we is smokin. who has a shooter?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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'Family-friendly' might indicate a resort to avoid if you're worried about being taken out by a nutter. Judging by the responses on this thread it it mostly teens who appear to be the perpetrators!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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imho i think the teens are just excited and need a little coaching
with my controversial hat on, if the less expert snowboarders hadn't scraped all the snow off down to ice then many of the beginner/intermediate skiers woudlnt be so much out of control
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| sev112 wrote: |
there is in fact quite a social question arising here (not a socialist question for those of you fascinated with southern tory boys)
Licensing in general .... so what else do you need a license ... skippering a boat etc |
I don't think that's true, in the general case.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Perhaps they could start with scrapping Piste Grooming. This would solve alot of problems with dangerous skiing as folk would learn how to ski in control, in all conditions,
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laundryman, In the UK -- no licence (nor education nor experience) required but different in most other countries ime.
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stanton, I' sure there's a 'yawn' smiley somewhere. 
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| Monium wrote: |
| Ask your insurance company what costs more, getting covered for diving to 30m (fairly standard recognised depth) and most will tell you it's included with almost any policy, if you are qualified. Ask them about skiing, especially off-piste, and they suddenly add on a fair whack of money (£30+) - this is because skiing is more dangerous. |
No, it's not that skiing is more dangerous. It's because it's more expensive for insurance companies to cover! Holiday skiers break bones, tear ligaments, pull muscles, get concussed etc and need long multi-vehicle journeys to get to hospital then home. They also ski a lot more hours per day than holiday divers.
Holiday divers are generally fine - or very occasionally dead. They are certainly much cheaper to deal with.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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[quote]rob@rar,
| Quote: |
| Training for the "Test Of Skier Safety, Etiquette and Responsibility" would be available for £79 per day |
To be able to offer this test in France you would need approval by the DJSS & of course must have passed the Eurotest and the fee will also be in Euros
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| Monium wrote: |
Will a simple "I know what I'm doing, and have been educated on how not to be a menace to other people" card solve this? Probably a lot of it, yes. |
Why?
I am quite certain that almost every person who skis dangerously could very easily pass that test.
The main problem is NOT beginners who are skiing above their ability level. It is people who just don't care. And a test like the above will not solve that.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Monium wrote: |
So ski patrol has the right to withdraw people's lift pass until they can behave themselves? Something like take the pass away for the rest of the day (cancel is electronically) - a yellow card of sorts - and if they are caught again just take the pass of them completely?
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This is a FAR better way of controlling the problem that any attempt to introduce licensing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Monium wrote: |
There aren't that many resorts.
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Huuh?
Sure, there are only a couple of hundred in most UK TO brochures, but there are several thousand resorts across the Alps.
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If a couple of the major resorts decided they were going to do it, many others would likely follow. I am thinking far more a basic ski test, which people can fail for demonstrating a crap attitude to the rules of the slopes. |
Which would not solve anything at all. Most people know (or at least have a good idea) of what the rules are, and would pass a test on that quite easily, even if they then proceed to completely ignore them once on the slopes.
And it can't be done by a few resorts (or even a whole country such as Austria) doing it "and then others will follow". Any resort or country which tried it alone would lose so much revenue they would be in real trouble. Any such scheme, if it is ever implemented, would have to be done across the whole of the major Alpine skiing countries at the same time.
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Monium,
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Ask your insurance company what costs more, getting covered for diving to 30m (fairly standard recognised depth) and most will tell you it's included with almost any policy, if you are qualified. Ask them about skiing, especially off-piste, and they suddenly add on a fair whack of money (£30+) - this is because skiing is more dangerous.
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Er, no actually, it's not. You are more likely to have a minor injury or other claim (closed pistes, stolen equipment and the biggie - injuring someone else etc) when skiing, that is why the premium is higher. However diving IS potentially more dangerous - which I'm pretty sure is what I was saying above. If you phuck up whilst diving, death is a real and genuine risk. (but death is relatively cheap for an insurer). It simply ISN'T when skiing - phuck up big style and 99 times out of 100 all that is likely to happen is a few broken bones, if that. So licensing is appropriate for diving, and I'm sure does reduce fatalities. It wouldn't with skiing, for the reasons rob@rar, clearly sets out above.
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You know it makes sense.
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| savaloy joy wrote: |
| shooters man-now we is smokin. who has a shooter? |
Wanna buy a nice little pump action shotgun, built in sound moderator, only three shot but very quiet. £600 to you 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bit hard to hide unda ya coat... can also flog ya my trench.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bring the cash to the deserted place I'm gonna PM ya... I'll be the one wearing a balaclava carrying a gun. Oh yeah... come alone 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If yr a bird bring ya own lube.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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And would an experienced skier learning to snowboard, or vice versa, need to gain a separate licence? Anything which the licence covered apart from actual technical ability on one's plank(s) would be a waste of money testing the second time around....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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anyone buying any pair of skis with hideous graphics shoudl be forced to have compulsory retest
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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mmmm as a senior Scuba instructor for PADI, BSAC, SAA, TDI and IANTD I can assure those who think the scuba model is controlled and good that its a joke. There are NO legal scuba qualifications. Anyone and his dog can (and many have) set up their own agencies and issue their own certificates. There is no legal requirements for any diver to have any qualifications to buy equipment and or gasses
Responsible shops will try to ensure they only sell equipment to those with the knowledge to use it safely, but many will sell anything for a buck
Also the standards vary tremendously between organisations, for example with PADI you can be a "Qualified Open Water diver"!!!! with out any rescue, first aid, organisation or safety skills (all paid for extras), whereas the BSAC, SAA, NAUII etc all teach rescue and first aid as part of their basic training, hence their "open Water Divers" are far better trained and capable
If the ski industry took on this model we would have each resort or country with different levels, some charging for the training, some just doing exams, each not recognising the others qualifications (especially those who charge for them) and a culture where you need a "Basic Open Snow Skier" to go on the piste, then Gondala 1, and Chairlift 1 to ride basic chairs. Some folks would spend a fortune getting the 30 or so certificates available. To go outside the flags youd need "Off Piste 1 & 2" etc
Not a situation I'd like to see
Why not just make every skier read and sign a 10 point skiers code each time they take out a ski pass, or do like some resorts and have each pylon on the lift have a poster with 1 of the codes on it
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madmole,
if i remember rightly at least one of the many french resorts i have been to does (or did) have the posters on the piste markers
we have a simialr situation in the construction indsutry with every one and his dog setting up their own version of a Health & Safety competency scheme . Construction is always either top or second most hazrdous industryin the UK so the powers that be deem that you need to be "competent" to work on on a construction site ; all well and good, but cue lots of competency schemes all competing with each other as madmole says.
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| maggi wrote: |
| Monium wrote: |
| Ask your insurance company what costs more, getting covered for diving to 30m (fairly standard recognised depth) and most will tell you it's included with almost any policy, if you are qualified. Ask them about skiing, especially off-piste, and they suddenly add on a fair whack of money (£30+) - this is because skiing is more dangerous. |
No, it's not that skiing is more dangerous. It's because it's more expensive for insurance companies to cover! Holiday skiers break bones, tear ligaments, pull muscles, get concussed etc and need long multi-vehicle journeys to get to hospital then home. They also ski a lot more hours per day than holiday divers.
Holiday divers are generally fine - or very occasionally dead. They are certainly much cheaper to deal with. |
You've not seen the bill for helicopter evacuation and recompression treatment that could last for days, dedicated teams of hyperbaric doctors monitoring someone, a nurse in the chamber with casualty, and everything else. A recent bill for an uninsured diver was £40K for a relatively minor bend.
Decompression Illness, the bends, is much more likely than risk of death for divers, in the same way as with skiing broken arms, legs, pulled muscles and torn ligaments are much more common than deaths. This is expensive to treat, and requires many of the same kind of logistical treatments as skiing - evacuation from remote site, treatment by medical professionals, repatriation for more serious cases etc.
But the risks are smaller in diving. They just are. I can dig up a load of stats if you like, but honestly just take it from me that skiing is a higher risk sport, along with football, rugby, american football, all kinds of other things. If you consider deaths alone, there are more people who die while ten pin bowling than while diving every year or something ridiculous.
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| Monium wrote: |
But the risks are smaller in diving. They just are.
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Not according to thios http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Risk/sports.html
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I can dig up a load of stats if you like, but honestly just take it from me that skiing is a higher risk sport, along with football, rugby, american football, all kinds of other things. If you consider deaths alone, there are more people who die while ten pin bowling than while diving every year or something ridiculous. |
There may be, but that is not a measure of the riskiness of the activity. Any measures of riskiness must take account of number of participants/events.
According to the above link, there are 7.5 times as many skier days per death as there are dives per death.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Each year at the BSAC diving officers conference they publish the insurance companies risk tables for risky sports (balanced for participation numbers). Diving comes in at about the 120th most risky sport, skiing about 40th. The top 10 always include
Golf
Football
Rugby
Motorsport
Golf is normally the most dangerous, apparently a golf ball or club around the head is almost always fatal
Other interesting statistics, falling out of bed, and bee/wasp stings each kill more folks in UK each year than aids! guess which ones gets Zero research funding?
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| Monium wrote: |
But the risks are smaller in diving. They just are.
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Not according to thios http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Risk/sports.html
| Quote: |
I can dig up a load of stats if you like, but honestly just take it from me that skiing is a higher risk sport, along with football, rugby, american football, all kinds of other things. If you consider deaths alone, there are more people who die while ten pin bowling than while diving every year or something ridiculous. |
There may be, but that is not a measure of the riskiness of the activity. Any measures of riskiness must take account of number of participants/events.
According to the above link, there are 7.5 times as many skier days per death as there are dives per death. |
OK, so there are more deaths per hour spent diving than skiing. That said, the insurance premium is for a week of said activity. In diving, you can only really expose yourself to about 5 dives a day, realistically 4. Each will last a maximum of one hour on average. So probably 24 hours of diving in a week at the very most. Skiing you will easily hit 40 hours in a week.
The death rate is useful, but the injuries are where the costs mount up, as above. Death is relatively cheap to sort out, just send a body back to home country, pay out relatively small amount to estate. Many diving deaths a body isn't found, so even those costs are gone. Skiing will have more injuries per week of the activity than diving.
There's also a distinct shortage of info backing up the stats - can't see which of the papers it's referencing for the stat, and whether that is a census of all dives undertaken (nobody actually records that info, various guesses are made, as they probably would be with skiing) and shows as the UK, assume based on BSAC results over a given period - the risks involved in diving vary significantly based on conditions, the UK is a comparatively dangerous place to dive against many of the other places you can dive worldwide.
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