Ski coach accident in Germany

A snowHead

I am not an expert in this area. Being an engineer by profession I do take an interest in the things that affect my daily life. When I skidded in an one-year old 4x4 in walking pace the vehicle did not suffer any repairable damage but I was keen to rectify my mistake by changing the car and choosing a more suitable tyre for my skiing activities. Stock tyres are fitted for economy and rarely suitable for skiing trips.

Winter tyre is the best equipment for snow surface because the protection is automatic and requires no stoppage or introduction of additional hardware. Depending on the prevailing condition it can be driven with a small reduction of the normal speed. Snow chains on the other hand require a stoppage but more importantly the fitting has to be carried out in an area away from the risk and splashing from the traffic and such space is invariably in short supply at the moment of need. With attached snow chains the maximum speed limit is 50 km/h or 32mph, which is clearly unsuitable for motorways. Higher speed is both uncomfortable and dangerous. Therefore fitting winter tyres is the only viable solution for fast driving on a German autobahn.

This is a picture of a high performance tyre . Such tyre needs one or more continuous rings for directional stability and hence difficult to provide discrete in block patterns.

Here is a picture showing a winter tyre with “mud and snow” or M&S block pattern treads and the siping (micro zig zag grooves). The siping is "the" essential characteristic of any winter tyre.

Different tyre constructions, tread patterns and design details are needed for achieving high speed and tyre longevity. Tread patterns for mud, snow, sand , grass, rock and paved surface are all different. Clearly some requirements are contradictory. For example it is impossible to design a soft tyre for winter driving and resistant enough against puncture on rock surface. A Landrover with stubby tyres, which are excellent on muddy grounds is very dangerous to drive at high speeds because the steering staibility problemand the braking distance is excessively long. Asked any Landrover owner and he/she would tell you. Some different track patterns can be seen in this site .

If I were to board a coach to a skiing destination and notice the tyres do not have sipings, which is an indication of summer tyres, I would casually asked the driver a question like “What kind of maximum speed can you do with these summer tyres when we have snow?”

Frosty the Snowman,

The steady crusising speed of my 4x4 is normally slower than the prevailing traffic. When it snows I do not need to slow down as much as the others (especially with a new set of tyres as I change them every two years). The 4x4s also have come a long way and many 4x4s, especially those from the German manufacturers providing V8 and V10 engines, can be driven much faster than the normal cars. They may be still less manouverable but not necessarily less stable under heavy braking because ABS on a 4WD is much more rigorous than 2WD. A 4x4 is always heavier, mine is over 2 tonnes, and needs a longer distance for braking and hense a long separation from any running vehicle in the front. The Shogun has a limited differential at the rear, a mechanical continuously varying torgue sensing central differential which distribute the power to match the front and rear axle tractions and three different modes of 4WD drive. A 2 wheel drive vehicle can suffer stability control if any driven wheel loses traction. On a 4x4 like a Shogun it takes 3 wheels to lose traction to end up with the same instability and so the safety factor is 2 or 3 times even on on the identical tyres. I therefore do not see myself driving recklessly by not slowing down as much as the other 2WD cars fitted with summer tyres when engaging in 4WD mode and have a new set of all season tyres specifically chosen for its ability on snow. Have I bought a winter tyre its rating on snow would be 5 out of 5. I was driving on a tyre with 4 out of 5 for the snow rating.

Worrying about a blow out due to high temperature is only valid for running a tyre above its speed rating. All amanufacturers have to guarantee and meet the requirement rating by law with the specified safety factor.

Winter tyres are not supposed to be used in summer because they are too soft and that is why it is more economic to keep two sets of tyres than using Winter tyres also in the summer. I don't have a statistics but it is unimaginery to me that say people in Tarentaise, France can run summer tyres all year around. Winter tyres are only used by the resort buses is a misconception I worry about the UK motorists. It reinforces my fear about the knowledge gap which is the root cause of putting the tyre to the wrong use.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I just drove back form Austria yeaterday to Holland along this route.
They have had a lot of snow in Germany these last few days. However, I had a clear run , very unusual for February.
Incidently, it was reported on the German News that the Stau's (Traffic Jams) were the least recorded on the Autobahns since August 10th last year!

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Frosty the Snowman,

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here becuase your comments on blow out refers to bus tyres whereas I misunderstood and compared it with the passenger cars and 4x4s. I confess having little knowledge on bus tyres.

It is not my intention to continue with the argument as our intention, I am sure your would agree, is to throw in our experience to make Apline travelling more safe for the readers. I find your reasons that a bus should avoid winter tyres to be sound if they are true. For economy Bus and truck tryes are often regrooved and remoulded. It is a common knowledge that a lorry or bus can shed a layer of its tyre onto the motorway thereby endangering other motorists.

My anxiety now is should UK buses have winter tyres at all for the skiing trips?

It appears that there is a practical problem of getting them for the buses as demand in UK is next to nothing. Winter tyres give poor mileage and wear out quickly and hence not in the owner's interest to fit them. Your arguments actually say they could be equally unsafe and at the very least undesirable. Therefore it is unreasonable for the bus passesgers to expect winter tyres to be fitted to UK buses destined for Alpine resorts. Hence any comment by the German authority that the accident bus had summer tyres is totally irrelevant because we simply do not use the winter tyres on any road and there is no law against it.

To be honest I really don't know if this is the case we should be in but it could well be the actual situation of most of the UK buses travelling to the Alps.

Any light the snowheads can shed on this issue?

All my previous comments are relevant to the passenger cars and 4x4s only and winter tyres are necessary on them. It appears buses should be an exception. I do have a knowledge gap here because I don't know the answer.

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saikee, I do not know the answer either, but I am sure somone will. My point was that it is a percentage game, and that tyres should be fitted as appropriate for the journey. I am sure that the safety of passengers and crew is paramount. It may be that fitting snow tyres to such coaches is the best solution, I am only pointing out the possible negatives of such a solution. I have now been on 20 coach transfer journeys and not once have we needed snow chains, or have I felt in danger. Like most accidents its down to luck on the day.

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saikee, Frosty the Snowman, This is the type of discussion that will be very benefical to drivers. I have been driving to the Alps for many years and I have certainly learnt a bit here. In general I have often been shocked at the condition of some tyres on GB vehicles, in resorts. Not only are most standard (Summer) tyres, but the available thread on some, and I emphasise some, appears just on UK legal or below! Many people looking at tyres see it as a whole, not realising that the part in contact with the road is actually tiny! This is remote from the Summer/Winter tyre discussion, of course, but valid nonetheless, when some appear unaware of the danger and risk to themselves and other road users.

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Bernard Condon,

Your point is totally valid. The economy unfortunately is the the driver's seat here. If our UK bus operators cannot afford tread on the summer tyres what chance do we have to expect a spare set of Winter tyres known to give even less mileage?

For safety I think the skiers would like to see tyres in good condition. If these tyres have not been manufactured for the Winter condition with snow on the road then we would like to see the travelling suitably moderated.

It shouldn't be, although it may be the current situation for buses travelling to the Alps, a percentage game for the summer tyres surviving a skiing trip because the safety margin can be improved by slowing down the speed in the event of a snow condition. It is depressing if one's life is down to the luck on the day.

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OK, I admit it, I'm pro-rail but I think if you look at the safety statistics of Brits travelling abroad more of them have problems in coaches than trains - especially on a pro-rata basis.

As for private car owners, obviously there's a lot of room for improvement in tyre quality - and the info. provided in this thread is excellent - but the challenge for motorists to assure their safety in winter conditions on icy/snowy roads is considerable.

Personally I feel a hell of a lot safer on a train.

snow reports

Are people aware that winter tyres are not just for snow?

Apart from snow use, tests reveal that they are better than summer tyres in wet weather, giving a reduction in braking distances.
They are also far better than a summer tyre at temps below 7degrees C, even in the dry, as below this temp the rubber compound of a summer tyre hardens and then has a lower co-efficient of friction. A winter tyre is designed for what it says - WINTER use and not just for snow and ice.

And can I also point out that a good quality winter tyre is not noisier / inferior to a summer tyre nor does it make the car "unsafe" on long runs on dry roads. To quote Pirelli

You know it makes sense.

Sorry, for my late entry onto this thread - only just came across it.

On the same weekend of the German mishap I was traveling back from France with Snowcoach (see here ), which company is owned by Cantabrica. I travelled on a standard Cantabrica logo'd coach, with Snowcoach drivers. At the beginning of that journey the Snowcoach drivers exchanged words in front of us which implied the drivers had been pressured to work in excess of French driving hour limits. Whether that is in fact the case I don't know. But certainly I felt that despite the wind and drizzle the drivers on our coach were pushing the speed and I had cause to wonder on a few occassions whether they were driving safely enough.

Also, during my trip staff management problems came to light and this, together with my experience on the coach, means I have serious doubts about Club Cantabrica being entirely up to scratch at present.

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A snowHead

Manda, Drivers would be working to EU driving regs which are the same in all EU countries. Any director or manager of a company that fails to stop (never mind encourages)drivers exceeding EU drivers hours laws, is risking an awful lot. If a driver is involved in a fatal RTA and has been found to have exceeded EU drivers regs, then the com[any will be investigated and if the "bosses" have not prevented or have encouraged hours offences then they are almost certainly looking at corporate manslaughter charges. The same goes for negligence in maintenance proceedures. There are currently several doing a long stretch at her majesty's pleasure.

These coaches are nearly always "double manned" which alows them to do thej ourney without a daily rest peroid. If workedcorrectly a coach can leave Point A in the UK with 2 drivers, it can drive all the way to the Alps, stoppingevery 4.5 hrs to sawp drivers. The coach can arrive in resort at 08.00 and the coach can commence the same journey home again at 16.00 providing that the coach drivers have had a minimum 8hr continuous rest. They then have another 22 hrs to get home again before another rest period is required. The only proviso is that each driver does no more than 10hrs driving each between rest periods. There are weekly rest periods involved and also the drivers can onlydo 10hrs per day twice a week etc etc. It is very complex but offenders do get hit very hard by the Authorities. By law the driver will have to carry all his current weeks tacho charts with him plus the last day of his previous driving week.

Please do not underestimate how serious an offence this would be for both driver and operator.

A snowHead

More likely than being forced to drive excess hours is the likelyhood of being forced to meet deadlines for picking up and droping off people

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Frosty the Snowman, I was under the impression that they had to have 11 hrs rest between drives of that length??

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Elizabeth B, You are right, but where only one driver is on board, however the daily rest period can be reduced to 9hrs- 3 times a week. Where a vehicle has a crew of two or more drivers (in the case of ski hol coaches), the minimum daily rest is fixed at 8 hours mimimum, in a maximum 'working day' of 30 hours. It is very complex as the reduced breaks must be made up for by the end of the following third week.

Exceeding maximum driving time may be done only to sufficiently ensure the safety of passengers and the vehicle. Completing the journey does not count as a reasonable excuse. Th4e most likely abuse would be if a coach arrives late on the outbound journey but is forced to leave before the drivers have had sufficient rest.

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Frosty the Snowman, in the transport business?

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CPC In International Road Transport for my sins. Noticed similar on your "CV"?. Anyone who breaks the law deserves everything they get thrown at them

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Frosty the Snowman,

So the skiers we see on the slopes are the bus companies' bosses and not their drivers?

The reason the bosses flying around on the slopes could be for business too as they could be just checking their staff not skiing while supposed to be "taking a rest".

After all it is free

Grrrrrrrrr just lost a big reply as when I tried posting it my wireless connection crashed Evil or Very Mad

In Summary: The only drivers who stay in resort are those on private hire e.g. schools where the coach will stay with the group. I had a mate who did this and skied all week despite his boss forbidding him in case he got injured and couldnt drive. There may be some companies that do ski touring by coach but i dont know of any.
Ski holiday company drivers will always take a group home once they have completed a daily rest period. This system also allows them to advertise 8 days of skiing.
Although what they do is legal, it does seem a punishing schedule. Sometimes on longer trips 3 drivers can be used complicating things even further, and enabling a faster turnaround.

Just to clarify, my departing coach had earlier arrived the same day with a busload of arrivals from the UK, and the coach was late arriving into resort due to the ferry problems. We were told that our coach departure was delayed because of the 8hour rest period the drivers were required to have.

There were 4 Snowcoach drivers onboard my coach, 2 of which drove. I don't know for a fact that the Snowcoach drivers driving my bus were driving in excess of whatever regulations apply. I only repeated what I heard a disgruntled Snowcoach driver say - he didn't drive during that trip.

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Manda, The regs are that complex (and sometimes vague) that traffic managers sometimes do not understand them fully. Drivers stand even less chance.

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Ski coach accident in Germany

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