 Poster: A snowHead
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| bertie bassett wrote: |
And how exactly was the rep in this case meant to do that when she was on her day off in another resort? |
In a resort the size of la Plagne there should be some Thomson staff on hand. Reps in the big T/Os are not normally allowed to leave resort without the T/O's permission even on their day's off. Obviously in smaller ski areas reps may handle more than 1 resort.
Thomson and other T/Os have some lessons to learn on this one.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
Thomson and other T/Os have some lessons to learn on this one. |
Yes, to make it absolutely clear to customers what they should do in an emergency and to make it absolutely clear to their staff not to get involved until it is clear there is actually a problem.
In a better world the rep would try to and want to help, however, whilst there are shyster lawyers who will argue in the interests of their own gain that their help was not good enough, the only route open to TO's and their insurers is not to get involved.
The FIS Code says that we should stop and assist at an accident. IMHO it is only a matter of time until a skier who was not even involved ends up getting sued for something they did or did not do in the aftermath. Answers on a post code ranked in order of those likely to generate the biggest payout! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What is the search and rescue plan? Surely given the risk assessments required these days to run any kind of facility there would have to be an established plan. Perhaps it would be worth sharing this with skiers - when buying lift pass or on the piste map.
I would be unreasonable to launch a search based solely on a person being late.
Furthermore, I think I'd need to be pretty desperate to ring a rep for help if the one's I have encountered are anything to go by.
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| robboj wrote: |
| The FIS Code says that we should stop and assist at an accident. IMHO it is only a matter of time until a skier who was not even involved ends up getting sued for something they did or did not do in the aftermath. Answers on a post code ranked in order of those likely to generate the biggest payout! |
Very good point. Surprised this hasn't been tightented up yet, although it would be another victory for our litigious society over and above common sense and decency.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I really can't be bothered to check but surely there is some sort of disclaimer in Thompson's T+Cs? That they don't take ANY responsibility for any harm that may come to you, it is a dangerous sport in a dangerous environment. If not there should be.
I don't expect any more from my TO other than to get me there, and give me a place to sleep and solve any problems involved in that side of it. What I do during the day is none of their business and they would not be the person I would contact over such a matter unless I desperately needed help with the language barrier. I would not expect to be able to ring them up and expect them to sort it all out.
Also the fact the rep was on her day off is a major factor if she choses to be "sat on her fat rep's back bottom at a bar" on her day off, then fair play to her! How people chose to spend their day off should be of no concern to anybody else.
People need to realise that there is not always someone else to blame, people need to start taking responsibility for their own actions and remember that sometimes accidents happen and nobody is to blame it is just an accident. 
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anotherproblem,
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I really can't be bothered to check but surely there is some sort of disclaimer in Thompson's T+Cs? That they don't take ANY responsibility for any harm that may come to you, it is a dangerous sport in a dangerous environment. If not there should be.
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Such disclaimers are, quite rightly, not a catch-all. It would be far too easy to avoid real responsibility if they were.
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What I do during the day is none of their business and they would not be the person I would contact over such a matter unless I desperately needed help with the language barrier. I would not expect to be able to ring them up and expect them to sort it all out.
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For all we know, the language barrier - as others have said above - could have been the precise problem and all the wife was asking was for the rep to contact the emergency services on her behalf. What you want your TO rep for and what their actual duties are, are two entirely different matters.
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Also the fact the rep was on her day off is a major factor if she choses to be "sat on her fat rep's back bottom at a bar" on her day off, then fair play to her! How people chose to spend their day off should be of no concern to anybody else.
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That is certainly not the case if the clients have been given to understand that there will always be someone available in case of emergency. As a matter of practicality, that will usually be the resort rep, at least, as has also been said, in a big resort.
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People need to realise that there is not always someone else to blame, people need to start taking responsibility for their own actions and remember that sometimes accidents happen and nobody is to blame it is just an accident.
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Nobody is denying that, many inquest verdicts reflect just that. You will never know what the deceased, or indeed his widow, did to fulfil their own responsibities. You are implying that they themselves were in some way responsible but, in fact, you haven't a clue.
Oh, blimey, I think I'm starting to sound like Alex Heney.
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| People need to realise that there is not always someone else to blame, people need to start taking responsibility for their own actions and remember that sometimes accidents happen and nobody is to blame it is just an accident |
Amen.... By all accounts this sounds like a very tragic & sad accident.
However the self righteous finger pointing doesn't do anyone any favors.
When notified of a missing person ski patrol will do a quick sweep of the piste.
However a full search will not be mounted until there is either
- a confirmed report of an injured victim / avalanche.
- the person is clearly long over due, which would usually be after lifts have closed.
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Probably already been said but no matter how good you are, or think you are, skiing on your own (if he was), is always potentially hazardous.
A couple of years ago, on the first Monday of the season I went for a last run on my own - down the run back into Nendaz town - a run I know like the back of my hand. Reactolight glasses were black, ipod on, going through the little tree lined bit flat out, in low light, and the piste basher came round the corner. Evasive action taken, straight into the trees, glasses went flying, without which I am very short sighted, skis off, bashed napper (no helmet) up to my neck in soft snow. My mate was over in Siviez, having missed the last tow and was waiting on the bus, not another soul on the mountain. Took me ages to find and get my gear back on, and by pure fluke I found my specs. I still shudder to think what might have happened.
I will never ski on my own again - or without a helmet.
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anotherproblem, must admit I agree with you. The increasing trend of "It's my right!" in place of "it's my responsibility" is one of the few things that, if left unchecked, would cause me to think seriously about departing this fair isle and living somewhere else!
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anotherproblem, I agree with your statement ... "I don't expect any more from my TO other than to get me there, and give me a place to sleep and solve any problems involved in that side of it.".
But then again, I can happily rabbit away in French which is one of the reasons why most of my foreign ski trips are to France. I also live in a town that has its own mountain rescue service so I would expect mrs moffatross would be more likely to call them rather than the emergency plumber if I failed to return on time from a winter ski tour in the local hills. Others may not be so au fait with Froggy lingo nor even aware that mountain rescue services exist and somehow expect that a gaggle of poorly paid gap-year students have been trained to act as a search and rescue team. Maybe the result of this will be that TO reps will have a duty to communicate the phone numbers of emergency services from the outset and in future will always refer the worried caller to them. Having said that, I can't think of any mountain resort that I've stayed at in France that doesn't already make those contact details pretty clear at ticket offices, tourist info offices and ski lift bases.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Quote:
Also the fact the rep was on her day off is a major factor if she choses to be "sat on her fat rep's back bottom at a bar" on her day off, then fair play to her! How people chose to spend their day off should be of no concern to anybody else.
That is certainly not the case if the clients have been given to understand that there will always be someone available in case of emergency. As a matter of practicality, that will usually be the resort rep, at least, as has also been said, in a big resort. |
The point I was getting at was that someone implied that the rep was at fault for doing so.I f she is permitted to go off and drink on her day off ( which as far as I'm concerned she should be) then the fact La Plagne was "unmanned" by a Thompson rep is the fault of Thompson, not the rep.
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Quote:
People need to realise that there is not always someone else to blame, people need to start taking responsibility for their own actions and remember that sometimes accidents happen and nobody is to blame it is just an accident.
Nobody is denying that, many inquest verdicts reflect just that. You will never know what the deceased, or indeed his widow, did to fulfil their own responsibities. You are implying that they themselves were in some way responsible but, in fact, you haven't a clue. |
Apparently you didn't read the bit at the end about things being accidents? I was not at all implying the widow or the deceased were at fault and I don't know how you get that impression.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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moffatross,
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But then again, I can happily rabbit away in French which is one of the reasons why most of my foreign ski trips are to France. I also live in a town that has its own mountain rescue service so I would expect mrs moffatross would be more likely to call them rather than the emergency plumber if I failed to return on time from a winter ski tour in the local hills. Others may not be so au fait with Froggy lingo nor even aware that mountain rescue services exist and somehow expect that a gaggle of poorly paid gap-year students have been trained to act as a search and rescue team.
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Agreed on all counts. I doubt that, given the reported circumstances, I would have phoned the tour rep. But that's not really the point.
mfj197,
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The increasing trend of "It's my right!" in place of "it's my responsibility"
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Agreed - to be deplored, but I fear that this fairest isle isn't the only place where that attitude obtains.
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From the outset I'll declare my 'interest' in this, I had shared a few beers with Martin and liked him.
I didn't know his widow was holding the TO responsible, and don't see how she can. The TO may have been less than perfect in thier actions, or they may have done the best anyone could, either way they didn't (as far as I can see) contribute to Martins death.
I don't like the comments on this thread blaming Martin for his own demise. He was skiing on his own, but intending to stay on the piste (surely we've all skiied on our own on piste). He strayed off the piste in error in poor conditions with tragic results. A mutual friend who visited the spot to pay his respects the following year says that it was easy to see how in poor viz you could miss one marker and end up in the trap (the avalanche talked about was by all accounts a slip of powder following the skiier/caused by the skiier going into the trap).
This was an accident pure and simple, not the TO fault, but not the skiier's either. This wasn't an unavoidable accident as I suppose Martin (or any of us) could have chosen not to ski at all, but other than that I can't see how anyone's actions could be seen to be contributory.
As always this is just IMO.
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You know it makes sense.
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anotherproblem,
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then the fact La Plagne was "unmanned" by a Thompson rep is the fault of Thompson, not the rep.
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Could be the fault of Thompson and the rep, it entirely depends on the facts.
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Apparently you didn't read the bit at the end about things being accidents? I was not at all implying the widow or the deceased were at fault and I don't know how you get that impression.
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I got the impression from the words "people need to start taking responsibility for their own actions" but I apologize if you were making no such implication.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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midgetbiker, thanks for posting. Very sad outcome, whichever way you look at it. Lots of small children too. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, the little lad who's just been round for tea with my 3 year old is/was the Godson of Phil Tate the snowboarder who died on the Valle Blanche last year. Just like Martin I knew Phil only well enough to be shocked by their deaths rather than personally grieve, but I am close to those who did grieve for both men, and as such get a little aggrieved when opinions are offered on their 'obvious responsibility' for their own demise.
The internet makes it easy to post an opinion on others and not have any consequence. When I arrived in La Plagne in 2007 myself, and was told over dinner by the chalet host about the skiier who had died the month before, but had been skiing irresponsibly, it was a little bit harder for him to dodge my 'angst' at his opinion.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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midgetbiker, I understand your personal connection but I'm not sure all debate should be wrapped in cotton wool less someone express an opinion that someone else might take offence at. Unfortunately when news gets put in the public domain for instance by the widow taking whatever legal action she is taking against Thomson, those only very tenuously interested e. all skiers who wonder whether a reaction might be to try to restrict off piste access etc, form their own views.
The interweb would be a very dull place if people only ever commented on things on which they had full and complete objective evidence. In fact maybe the world wide single page would suffice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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midgetbiker, yes indeed. Absolutely understood/agreed. But I think anotherproblem was probably right to castigate me for inferring that he, in particular, was blaming anybody.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
From the outset I'll declare my 'interest' in this, I had shared a few beers with Martin and liked him.
I didn't know his widow was holding the TO responsible, and don't see how she can. The TO may have been less than perfect in thier actions, or they may have done the best anyone could, either way they didn't (as far as I can see) contribute to Martins death.
I don't like the comments on this thread blaming Martin for his own demise. He was skiing on his own, but intending to stay on the piste (surely we've all skiied on our own on piste). He strayed off the piste in error in poor conditions with tragic results. A mutual friend who visited the spot to pay his respects the following year says that it was easy to see how in poor viz you could miss one marker and end up in the trap (the avalanche talked about was by all accounts a slip of powder following the skiier/caused by the skiier going into the trap).
This was an accident pure and simple, not the TO fault, but not the skiier's either. This wasn't an unavoidable accident as I suppose Martin (or any of us) could have chosen not to ski at all, but other than that I can't see how anyone's actions could be seen to be contributory.
As always this is just IMO. |
I concur with others, very sad.
I hope my post didn't come across as blaming the poor guy.
He was doing what nearly all of us has done, 99.9% of the time you get away with it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob, certainly not trying to surpress debate on the internet, that's why when I see what IMO is incorrect info being posted I will put my two penneth in to correct it.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The saying goes... It takes at least two mistake to make a tragedy...
1) Martin chooses to ski alone IN POOR VIS (I ski alone a lot. But when visibility is poor, I prefer to ski with SOMEONE, and probably slowly so I don't stray away from the piste by mistake)
2) His wife call the TO rep instead of mountain rescue directly.
3) The rep just pacified her instead of at least suggest the option of call ing mountain rescue (no mention of such suggestion)
4) Mountain rescue didn't check the lift pass to see he hasn't used the lift for several hours. Hence the likelihood of being injured.
Had 2-4 had happened differently, he "might" have been saved.
Or not.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| fatbob, certainly not trying to surpress debate on the internet, that's why when I see what IMO is incorrect info being posted I will put my two penneth in to correct it. |
Fair enough and FWIW my conclusion based on the "facts" available would be like yours that it was just an accident, undoubtedly sad for those connected but with no one "to blame".
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Here's an interesting question.
When you next meet up with ski buddies / friends / family - ask them how they would contact 'mountain rescue' if needed when next on their ski holidays. Tell them it's not possible to get to a lift station and where would they find the phone number.
See what responses you get - you might be surprised, I was...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| bertie bassett wrote: |
Here's an interesting question.
When you next meet up with ski buddies / friends / family - ask them how they would contact 'mountain rescue' if needed when next on their ski holidays. Tell them it's not possible to get to a lift station and where would they find the phone number.
See what responses you get - you might be surprised, I was... |
Every year I say to myself I am going to pre-programme everybody's phones with the numbers - of course I never do.
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Tell them it's not possible to get to a lift station and where would they find the phone number.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| abc wrote: |
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Tell them it's not possible to get to a lift station and where would they find the phone number.
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You will normally find it on the piste map.
OR just use 112 (anywhere in Europe, and most of the rest of the world)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Always in our mobiles
La Plagne 0033 479096760
Les Arcs 0033 479078566
Peisey v 003379079259
As printed on the piste maps.
Only time someone was injured in our group a passing ski instructor stopped and made the call over his radio.
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Well most people I've asked think 90 minutes is far too short a time to be worried in a big resort like la Plagne... so we come back to the fact that it is a tragedy for the wife and kids but that's it.
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You know it makes sense.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
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Tell them it's not possible to get to a lift station and where would they find the phone number.
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You will normally find it on the piste map.
OR just use 112 (anywhere in Europe, and most of the rest of the world) |
We know that and indeed I have the numbers for my resort in the ski-phone, but does everyone you ski with?
Most times people say 'on the lift-pass' and probably only 1 in 5 or so that I've asked have said 'on the piste map'
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I was mid-season in La Plagne when this news spread.
As I recall that day had been clear and, as always, the piste limits were well marked.
Later in the year my eagle eyed wife spotted someone in trouble amongst boulders and trees at the top of the 1800 lift with light fading and the lifts long since closed. I told the Accuel office in 1800 and they had 2 piste bashers there to effect the rescue in less than 10 minutes.
Solo off piste is no one elses fault.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| abc wrote: |
The saying goes... It takes at least two mistake to make a tragedy...
1) Martin chooses to ski alone IN POOR VIS (I ski alone a lot. But when visibility is poor, I prefer to ski with SOMEONE, and probably slowly so I don't stray away from the piste by mistake)
2) His wife call the TO rep instead of mountain rescue directly.
3) The rep just pacified her instead of at least suggest the option of call ing mountain rescue (no mention of such suggestion)
4) Mountain rescue didn't check the lift pass to see he hasn't used the lift for several hours. Hence the likelihood of being injured.
Had 2-4 had happened differently, he "might" have been saved.
Or not. |
Not really sure about the 2-4
Martin may not have chosen to ski alone in poor vis. It may have been fine then changed. It's happeneds many times.
We don't know if Martin's wife knew how to contact the MRT. So the natural thing to do would be to call someone who would know.
The rep pacified Martin's wife, ok, but that’s what they (and we) do. Loads of times people (who are not with my TO or in my class) but who know that I speak English come and tell me that this person or that person has not shown up where they arranged to. This will be a common occurrence for all ski instructors in this forum. What do we do? We can’t call the MRT each time. In real life this doesn't happen. It only happens with the, somewhat skewed, backwards looking 20:20 vision that you get in a lawyer’s office.
The MRT would not have checked the lift pass computer just as someone was reported as not having met someone. They would wait until it became likely that there was a problem. Likely, and not just possible, as its possible thousands of times a day in the Alps during the ski season.
As always, when speaking about outdoor incidences, it is important to keep in mind that we don’t know exactly what happened. The authorities can make an educated guess but in reality the only person who fully understands why he was there, what happened just prior to the indecent, etc, is Martin.
Whether his wife is truly believes the TO or the rep’s actions (or lack of action) as being a contributory factor in Martin’s death only she can say.
The only thing that is certain is that this is an extremely sad time for those concerned. It is an understandable reaction to seek out the reasons for the death of a loved one and to apportion blame if it is felt that someone may have been, however tenuously, a contributing factor in the eventual outcome.
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FAQ
