 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I can't see how the TO can be at fault, they're not employed to be a mountain rescue service. Whoever was skiing with the poor chap at the time and left him down a hole without raising the alarm, would take some blame, but tragic accidents can and do happen in the mountains.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Tragic accident but to be fair it is not the TO's responsibility when the guests are out on the mountain. They are not there to babysit us. But that said she could of reported it to the piste patrol.
In this kind of situation though what chance would they of had to find him earlier? A lone skier accidentally ventures off piste in poor visibilty, if someone saw it happen 99% of people would of either helped or gone to get help, what the TO could of done more than the Wife herself I don't know.
It also states that they could/would not search until after the runs were closed in which case them being notified earlier would possibly not of helped, would the piste patrol of taken a man who failed to make a meeting for lunch seriously? I have been over an hour late for meeting people on slopes and they the same with me, not always helped by lack of phone signal. I think I to would just assume he was in a bar or just a bit further away then he'd planned to be.
I can understand she is grieving and this is a terrible loss, but I think she is just after someone to blame.
Edit: just added a bit more
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 20-10-09 13:22; edited 1 time in total
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Since nobody else is mentioned I assumed he was skiing on his own. Not something to do off piste and, as it is clear from this, not in bad visibility either.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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snowball, it says he just stumbled off piste, but as he was on his own nobody will ever know if he was off piste on purpose or accidentally.
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I wonder why they are suing the TO. In the circumstances I'm surprised they are not trying to sue the resort for not having the off piste fenced off.
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From what is in that report he was on his own and happened to have an unfortunate accident. When his wife missed him, rather than calling for a rescue she phoned a TO rep  I'm afraid people must take responsibility for their own action, or inaction.
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a longer piece
http://www.buryfreepress.co.uk/latest-south-east-news/Skier-died-after-trapped-under.5747158.jp
The coroner says he thinks that going off piste was not deliberate.
Report on PisteHors... it is just 1 paragraph from a long day of incidents (which may give you a clue that the resort authorities were otherwise occupied)
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0695-fatal-avalanche-close-to-tignes-pistes/
Thomson probably have some duty to help their guests liase with resort authorities and it seems from the report that they were very slow to get moving, I guess no-one wanted to go out in the bad weather.
If the man had a RDV it would be reasonable for the wife to assume he had some problem and they could have immediately checked the hands free system to see which his last lift was. Assuming it was the Colosses chair he could be in Belle Plagne or Plagne Center or one the Arolles, Trieuse or Ecartee runs. Not a huge area to ask the piste patrol to make a tour. Given that his legs were visible there must have been some chance of him being found alive if action had been prompt.
Poor show by Thomson and a poor show by la Plagne. I'd like to know why they could do nothing until pistes were closed if that is indeed the case.
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Feel very sorry for the woman of called, but when have TOs ever been responsible for someone's safety when skiing - unless they are providing a guiding or instruction? And who would call the resort rep? The report suggest that these people were fairly competent skiers - not beginners who wouldn't know what to do. Surely everyone who's knows that you call the piste patrol? I doubt this will ever make it to court.
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| anotherproblem wrote: |
| I can understand she is grieving and this is a terrible loss, but I think she is just after someone to blame. |
Agreed.If reps/chalet staff were obliged to chase down everyone who's late for lunch there would be chaos!
That a solicitor also feels that blame can be attached to someone is,in my view,also wrong....and is presenting false hope?This says it all...."Coroner Richard Hulett recorded a verdict of accidental death".It is a hard,but true,fact that adults need to take responsibility for their own actions.Tragically,this gentleman's actions resulted in his own accidental death.It is not always the case that there is 'someone else to blame'.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wow, my mother was a couple of years ago in an accident in similar circumstances in La Plagne, it's scary to think what could have happened. The fog was very dense and she went off the marked piste in error, and fell into a hole, with quite a bit of fresh snow following her (not burying her completely, but she couldn't get out). She said she spent about twenty minutes there clicking a pole to her ski until two guys stopped and got her out.
I came down the same piste for my last run of the day (after 4.30) and l found her just as she had recollected herself and was about to start off. I hope that I would have heard the noise if it had been me passing her first...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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davidof, I agree, surely it would have taken seconds for the rep involved to alert the authorities. Perhaps the wife should have called them, but in a state of anxiety, it is easy to not do the right thing. Once that had been done, the responsibility for further action would have rested with the rescue services.
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| anotherproblem wrote: |
Tragic accident but to be fair it is not the TO's responsibility when the guests are out on the mountain. They are not there to babysit us. But that said she could of reported it to the piste patrol.
In this kind of situation though what chance would they of had to find him earlier? A lone skier accidentally ventures off piste in poor visibilty, if someone saw it happen 99% of people would of either helped or gone to get help, what the TO could of done more than the Wife herself I don't know.
It also states that they could/would not search until after the runs were closed in which case them being notified earlier would possibly not of helped, would the piste patrol of taken a man who failed to make a meeting for lunch seriously? I have been over an hour late for meeting people on slopes and they the same with me, not always helped by lack of phone signal. I think I to would just assume he was in a bar or just a bit further away then he'd planned to be.
I can understand she is grieving and this is a terrible loss, but I think she is just after someone to blame.
Edit: just added a bit more |
Not normally a pedant but please can you have another edit and use could have rather than could of.
People need to accept that skiing is dangerous, skiing off piste is more dangerous, skiing off piste in bad weather is very dangerous and skiing off piste in bad weather, with no avi gear and on your own is akin to suicide. A tragic accident but not the fault of the company that flew them there and gave them a bed for their holiday.
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You know it makes sense.
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bar shaker, no.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
An avalanche dog was finally able to recover the body in the early afternoon. At la Plagne a lone British skier died in an avalanche at 2300 meters. The alert was given by his wife when he failed to return to the resort in the early evening. The body was found after an extensive search at 2h30 on Wednesday morning; the missing skiers legs were visible on the surface of the slide. He had been swept into a terrain trap very close to the the Aroles run. His hands free lift pass had recorded the last lift he had used and gave rescuers an idea of the area to search.
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From the piste hors article linked to above.
It would seem that an extensive search took from Early evening until the body was found in the early hours of the following day.
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Poster: A snowHead
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That's very clever about tracking the lift pass.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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To be blunt - if the wife thinks it's an emergency requiring urgent callout of search and rescue it is up to her to call them out. It is a complete cop-out to phone someone who knows nothing about the person concerned, and nothing about the arrangements, ask and follow their advice, then blame them because from their completely uninformed position they got it wrong
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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RobinS, I agree, but the advice that was subsequently (alledgedly) given was poor at best.
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TO rep guilty of being a bit flakey if accurately reported, but based on probabilities she'd be correct 99 times out of a 100 I'd guess. The widow is grasping at straws however if she thinks the rep could have saved her hubby - she took 90 minutes after arranged rendezvous to raise the alarm - I'd suspect he was long dead by then.
Doesn't appear she's suing for anything though so its fair that these things are discussed in inquests.
Edit: Oops it appears she's taking legal action against Thomsons. Not clear what for but clearly she's at least as or more culpable for his death as they are if that's the action she's taking.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 20-10-09 18:25; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Frosty the Snowman,
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RobinS, I agree, but the advice that was subsequently (alledgedly) given was poor at best.
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I agree that it was poor, but what more could you reasonably expect - TO reps are not qualified to give search and rescue advice, they are not guides, and they nothing about the individual concerned. In the circumstances as described, when not arriving as scheduled I know some people who I would be concerned about, and several others who I would just swear about thinking they have just gone off to ski something else without thinking. Even if the Tour Rep had alerted piste patrol I strongly doubt they have done much immediately anyway - the number of skiers who don't turn up to meet others in their party at lunchtime must be huge!
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| snowskisnow wrote: |
| anotherproblem wrote: |
| I can understand she is grieving and this is a terrible loss, but I think she is just after someone to blame. |
Agreed.If reps/chalet staff were obliged to chase down everyone who's late for lunch there would be chaos! |
I've been in a chalet in St. Anton with 18 missing for dinner before now - did we call the rescue patrol no, as we assumed they'd just be in the moose, kk, bar cuba or wherever.
it's a sad story and my condolences go out to the family, although I struggle to see how it's Thomsons fault - their rep had a day off and gave what would be a likely answer, although perhaps he should have told the woman to report the 'incident' to piste patrol.
I'm a little surprised that it happened on the side of arolles as I don't remember to many terrain traps there, and you would have thought at that time of day other people might have seen him. I remember snowcrazy showing us some terrain traps last year but I think that was much more above PC
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I suppose what is needed is a run down of what a tour rep's responsibility is whilst in resort. I would have thought acting as liaison between holiday makers and the appropriate local services might well be included, at the very least advising someone who to contact and how to do so? Sadly though the woman must bear some responsibility herself for the delay in alerting mountain rescue, if she was content to take the advice and didn't seek further assistance, even though that would probably not have resulted in an earlier search.
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If anybody besides the unfortunate skier was at fault, it was before he fell into the trap - perhaps the piste boundary wasn't well marked, but even that is tenuous. After he fell in, unless someone passed very close by chance, his fate was sealed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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"fatbob" The widow is grasping at straws however if she thinks the rep could have saved her hubby - she took 90 minutes after arranged rendezvous to raise the alarm - I'd suspect he was long dead by then.[quote]
Agree, the most relevant point of the whole thread! and IMHO the action to come will fail on this point.
A tragic accident but the wife acted slowly and stupidly. The Rep did the wrong thing, she should have made the wife take responsibility and advised her to contact the piste patrol asap (which I'm sure will now be a standard response from all TUI reps) but I do not feel that they are in any way responsible for his death.
Do find the mountains companies response to be a bit lacking, though, alas, not untypical in our less litigous society. Maybe a few more mountain companies getting sued will improve safety for us all 
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| robboj wrote: |
Do find the mountains companies response to be a bit lacking, though, alas, not untypical in our less litigous society. Maybe a few more mountain companies getting sued will improve safety for us all |
That would make our holidays a lot cheaper!!
If we can't give people a briefing, perhaps, about personal responsibility perhaps we put a logo on ski adverts saying that it is dangerous, like motor racing entry tickets.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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bar shaker, Maybe even dead cheap ? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| I suppose what is needed is a run down of what a tour rep's responsibility is whilst in resort. I would have thought acting as liaison between holiday makers and the appropriate local services might well be included, |
I do not think that is the right answer. It just introduces an extra link in the communication chain. Whoever responds at the rescue service needs to be able to speak directly to the person requesting help, because they may have questions to ask the caller which may help the rescue service make a more effective response.
Maybe what the TOs could do is reinforce at their usual first night meeting, what skiers’ responsibilities are. They could also ask them to read what is said on the piste map. Most piste maps if not all, explain the avalanche ratings and amongst other safety information, give the emergency contact numbers. How many people really bother to read that information?
What we will never know in this situation is whether the skier went off piste intentionally or accidentally. He was described as a competent skier. Maybe he normally was but sad to say he was not competent on this occasion. If he went off piste intentionally on his own in a white out he made a bad decision. If he went off accidentally then he was not competent sking on piste in a white out, particularly on his own.
Having said that I do think this was just a very tragic accident which highlights the dangers that are always there and could happy to many people.
The one question that it does raise for me however is piste marking. I have certainly skied on many pistes in a white out where you could not pick out the next piste marker and I often wonder how some inexperienced skiers cope. Perhaps any investigation into this accident needs to ask the question whether or not the piste at that point should have been more clearly marked, either with extra poles, ropes or fencing. I doubt if most of us want to see loads of fencing and ropes down the side of every piste but probably that is the only way you can make skiing on piste as safe as possible.
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Having been a ski patroller for a number of years I can tell you that most of the missing persons call outs are just as the TO said. They are in the bar, cafe, toilet etc and not lost on the hill. So it is hard to see how there would have been any other outcome. If the person was missing at the end of the day the down town search (known as the barst@rd search) was started at the same time as the mountain search and both were given the same priority. Most times it was a happy result for us if not for the irresponsible missing person.
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You know it makes sense.
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I've been a rep and when someone has asked me to help with a missing person I've done what is necessary to help, I've not just plonked me fat rep's arse in a bar stool and told the people to stop being hysterical. I remember a parent asking me to look for her 12 year old son who was late, it was blowing a 100km/h on the hill with low visibility. I got my skis, took the funi and checked the open runs and lifts and eventually found him in one of the mountain cafes and phoned his mum. That's what reps are supposed to do. They are not there on a six month drinkingandshagginfest.
In this case we are not talking some drunken lads out on a trip. We are talking about a seemingly careful and responsible father of 4 who had an explicit meet with his wife for lunch. She waited 90 minutes which would seem like plenty of time for him to arrive. The conditions were poor, there was a fare chance he was lost or something had happened. It is not much to help the poor lady by talking to the piste patrol, finding out what can be done. The woman also had kids to look after, maybe didn't speak french etc. The resort rep is there to help guests, in this case liase with the rescue services, offer some comfort etc.
Now newspaper reports rarely give the complete picture but it would seem that both the rep and ski resort thought "ah another billy lost on the hill, no panic, he's sure to turn up". Given the pathology report it is possible that had he been found sometime during the afternoon he might have been saved.
I seem to remember Lizzard had one of her guests lost at les Deux Alpes and had a hard job getting the local plod to take it seriously.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Makes me feel a little uneasy. TOs bring people inexperienced in the mountains, often with poor language skills and unfamiliar with how to deal with the local police out to the Alps. They also explain that the rep is there to help with difficulties their customers may have. Of course in the UK, were there a similar problem, one would contact the police directly - but how many of us would feel confident to explain fluently to French police exactly what the problem and cause for concern was?
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Poster: A snowHead
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achilles, With 23% of visitors coming from Britain the people that man the SOS line in La Plagne do speak English, most Piste patrollers I have met also speak a little if not fluent English as well.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't think anyone's disagreeing that it would probably have been the right thing to do for the rep to contact piste patrol. But that doesn't mean that the TO should be leaglly responsible for something like this that is out of their control. Where would it stop?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I lost a guest in courchevel a few years ago parents stopped in 1850 for 18 year old child to follow but he didn't show up. Drove said parents to 1850/1650 le praz to check bars etc and called into the Gendarmerie with a photo of said child who went out looking for him. Drove down the hill to see if he had skiied down to 1550 or Le Praz but no sign. Police picked him up on the road to 1850 and called me cue emotional reunion. It appeared that he had missed the croisette in 1850 (the one with three lifts going out of it and skied down to Le Praz). He had forgotten where he was staying but know the hotel name. He asked in english for directions and was told it was in 1650 (why he was on his way to 1850 was never fully explained. Piste patrol said that all runs were cleared but were not all that keen to start searching and it is up to the gendarmarie to liaise with the resort before a search is called for.
Best question I had to side step was
How long does it take to die from hypothermia
As davidof, says it is our responsibility to help guests wherever possible.
Andy
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| davidof wrote: |
I've been a rep and when someone has asked me to help with a missing person I've done what is necessary to help, I've not just plonked me fat rep's arse in a bar stool and told the people to stop being hysterical. I remember a parent asking me to look for her 12 year old son who was late, it was blowing a 100km/h on the hill with low visibility. I got my skis, took the funi and checked the open runs and lifts and eventually found him in one of the mountain cafes and phoned his mum. That's what reps are supposed to do. They are not there on a six month drinkingandshagginfest.
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And how exactly was the rep in this case meant to do that when she was on her day off in another resort?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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bertie bassett,
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And how exactly was the rep in this case meant to do that when she was on her day off in another resort?
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I don't suppose that davidof was suggesting that this was necessarily the correct response in this instance. But IME a resort rep (unlike chalet staff etc) can't and shouldn't just booger off, but always has to be available - or someone does, his/her responsibilities can be delegated if necessary - to deal with just such an emergency. In this case, as other people have intimated, it looks as though the rep should at least have tried to mobilise the emergency services. But as always with such newspaper reports, we're all guessing the actual facts.
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| Quote: |
| Poor show by Thomson and a poor show by la Plagne. I'd like to know why they could do nothing until pistes were closed if that is indeed the case. |
And poor show from Davidof - who should know better. This thread is a classic snowheads 'hysterical' response....
And typical of modern society - who are always looking for someone else to blame.
For sure - this incident is very tragic. However in the mountains you need to accept total responsability for your own actions - especially when going off piste! The marker boundary on french piste's are very clear, large poles every 10 metres that are checked twice daily by ski patrol. Cross the marker poles and your outwith the area that ski patrollers take responsability for (and the rescue also becomes a mountain rescue, not a piste rescue!)
In this case someone went off piste on their own, and got avalanched.
Only one person is to blame for this very unfortunate accident....
Ski patrol / mountain rescue simply do not have the resources to mount full sweep search's, with dogs & helicopters, every time someone is reported 90 minutes late for lunch. Had someone, perhaps the guys ski partner, reported an avalanche then it would be a very different story.
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| Quote: |
In this case someone went off piste on their own, and got avalanched.
Only one person is to blame for this very unfortunate accident....
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Haggis_Trap, I am sure most of us have skied in conditions that bad that we struggled to find a piste marker pole. I have been in a position where I fell on a flat section and came across a marker pole and wasn't sure which side of the piste I was on or if I was facing up or down the piste. I wonder how many brit skiers know that poles on the right side of the piste in France are marked with an orange band....or is it 2 bands....and is it the left hand poles  Blaming the skier is wrong IMHO as we were not there at the time.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ..... The marker boundary on french piste's are very clear, large poles every 10 metres that are checked twice daily by ski patrol. ..... |
Far from always so, IME, in France. There are times when pole positions, particularly on steep pistes, seem very random, and where the edge of the piste is is confusing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap,
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This thread is a classic snowheads 'hysterical' response....
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Only one person is to blame for this very unfortunate accident....
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Your view is a guess, like all the others.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
And poor show from Davidof
Ski patrol / mountain rescue simply do not have the resources to mount full sweep search's, with dogs & helicopters, every time someone is reported 90 minutes late for lunch. Had someone, perhaps the guys ski partner, reported an avalanche then it would be a very different story. |
Yes but there you go suggesting something I didn't say.
What I said was the rep should have helped the women, who obviously also had kids to worry about, liase with the piste patrol. They may have had a report of someone being taking off the mountain, for example.
I didn't say the resort should mount a full search with dogs and helicopters.
What I did say was it was not beyond the wit of the ski resort to check the hands free system to get an idea of where the man might be, maybe alert the patrollers in the sector, they don't spend all day in their rescue posts brewing tea after all. As I clearly stated in my post, it was a busy day for ski resorts in the area and the patrollers may have been busy with avalanche control work.
This may have changed nothing, but at least it would show that they were a bit concerned for the poor woman. It is an accident, these things do happen.[/b]
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 21-10-09 9:39; edited 1 time in total
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