 Poster: A snowHead
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jimmjimm, Yeah that was my point originally, the issue comes when the inside ski wants to turn less than the outside one so you end up having to putmore weight on it = snow eating
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Surely if your feet are closer together laterally you can get higher angles on both skis .
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I always thought, feet close=moguls (when you want your skis flat not at big edge angles) and deep stuff (when you want both close to keep a uniform weighting on each), and feet wide = high speed on piste, or steeps, when you want an extra stable platform and you can get a big angle on each ski (the inside one becomes blocked if they are too close)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gra,
This is the sticking point, the blocking is caused by not being able to put weight on the inside ski (therefore it runs a longer turn radius and hits the outside ski), some new thinking says maybe you can keep them close assuming you pull back the inside ski to more engage the front of the ski and therefore the tighter section of your ski radius. The problem is as you rightly pointed out, you lose stability and also maneuverabilty so you would have to be very confident going into the turn.
As for powder and moguls, you're spot on.
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dulcamara, one of the problem here is that more than a few people with closed minds liked to argue instead of being open to debate and learning....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| dulcamara, one of the problem here is that more than a few people with closed minds liked to argue instead of being open to debate and learning.... |
No we don't  .
I struggle a bit with the concept of "blocking" I understand broadly what it is but can't really work out why its such a problem. If your biomechanics are such that you are physically preventing yourself from doing something surely you try to approach things differently ( or let your body relax more etc) the next time rather than specifically concentrating on removing the block.
It seems to me a lot of people think in an object orientated way about skiing - I can't ski bumps, I want to ski bumps, solution - take a bumps lesson. This is one reason I hate skier grading systems, if only I could ace breakable crud I'd be an SCGB Gold skier etc etc
Far better to my mind is encouraging play and experimentation e.g. forget about bumps let's go play in the powder, hoon around the groomers, vary our turns. Then you come across the bumps and its just one part of the whole day for which you have some varied experience to employ
I realise that guys like you & Rob are very much into building the toolkit through varied experience.
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| anotherproblem wrote: |
Chicken farm - Get down the hill however you want, I will watch you and comment
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Brilliant. Recently heard from a BASI trainer obviously from the student directed learning school of the silent chicken farm variant - you all do what you want and I won't say anything til you ask me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob, wasnt having a pop at you or indeed those who learn in different ways but rather those that say that there is no place for "how skiing works" discussions on SH's.
There are loads of ways how to learn a motor skill like skiing and not everyone responds well to pure self discovery through play and experimentation
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skimottaret, No I was just making a very weak joke. I like your toolkit approach to skiing, I cringe when I see people locked into one way of doing things because its the "right" way their instructor showed them. Unfortunately putting something dynamic/kinetic into words makes technical debate a challenge, though obviously I enjoy a good barny.
The biggest quantum leap in ski instruction to me is the pocket video camera - far better to let students see themselves what they look like and kick start guided self analysis.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
biggest quantum leap in ski instruction to me is the pocket video camera
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yup!!! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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fatbob,
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I like your toolkit approach to skiing
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Me too! 
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putting something dynamic/kinetic into words makes technical debate a challenge
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Yes, and more trouble arises if
1) as on a forum like this, people at all levels of skiing ability can join in the debate, not to mention all levels of scientific understanding
2) the experts sometimes fail to express themselves very well
3) the would-be skier doesn't have a scientific background at all, and simply can't grasp the dynamics/kinetics.
4) the experts disagree on what seem to be the most basic principles
5) some of the experts aren't actually experts
In other words, it's not just a question of not being open to learning 'how skiing works.'
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The biggest quantum leap in ski instruction to me is the pocket video camera - far better to let students see themselves what they look like and kick start guided self analysis.
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Hear, hear. With knobs on.
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rjs, "who do you see on the world cup doing this." I'd say most of them .
I'll go find some examples.
Example 1
Example 2
In both of these pics the ski boots are almost touching laterally but separated vertically.
High angles too.
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You know it makes sense.
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jimmjimm, The Rocca picture is not what dulcamara was describing though. The picture is of standard race technique with most of the weight on the outside ski and the feet hip width apart when upright.
When you are skiing like this it doesn't feel as if your stance is changing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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In both of these pics the ski boots are almost touching laterally but separated vertically
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looks to me like the boots (and skis) are laterally separated by around hip width or more. What do you mean by vertical separation?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ahem. To answer the original q:
It's all down to kit. With the modern midfat rockered sidecut early taper elfshoe race lab freeride influenced all mountain big powder piste skis you can cover the whole mountain effortlessly.
The pros who still hang around here just can't bring themselves to admit they're obsolete.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Cunners, what is your opinion on modern twintip midfat rockered sidecut early taper elfshoe race lab freeride influenced all mountain big powder piste skis? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| anotherproblem wrote: |
| Cunners, what is your opinion on modern twintip midfat rockered sidecut early taper elfshoe race lab freeride influenced all mountain big powder piste skis? |
It's too early to say, I haven't seen this seasons adverts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Cunners wrote: |
| The pros who still hang around here just can't bring themselves to admit they're obsolete. |
I've been obsolete for a long time.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, aw, no you're not. [soothe, soothe]
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| fatbob wrote: |
I struggle a bit with the concept of "blocking" I understand broadly what it is but can't really work out why its such a problem.
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It might help if you further specify -what- is being blocked?
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If your biomechanics are such that you are physically preventing yourself from doing something surely you try to approach things differently ( or let your body relax more etc) the next time rather than specifically concentrating on removing the block. |
If we specifically limit 'blocking' to mean 'blocking the path of the centre of mass' then relaxation is not an option.
One then is left with two ranges of options:
a) adding _yet_more_ work by muscles to overcome the effect of the block. Which means different muscles are working against each other. That's bad, tiring, and wasteful, yes? Sure there are scenarios (steep terrain) where you might want such a thing, but as an all-day tactic?
b) removing the block.
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skimottaret,
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| fatbob, wasnt having a pop at you or indeed those who learn in different ways but rather those that say that there is no place for "how skiing works" discussions on SH's. |
That'll be a pop at me then!
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The technique debates on here tend to get overly technical and (no offence to those who join in!) are only really of interest or use to "technical geeks" who already ski at a very high level. They contracdict each other and will never reach an agreed conclusion! Just confusing to someone who wants to learn, so a real lesson with a great teacher will be of more use to you than they ever will.
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Fully accept that some learners like lots of technical explanation. But I still think that after the first couple of pages the arguments on here do stop being useful to someone who wants to learn. Someone poses a question, they get a few different answers with explanation which gives them something to think about and go away and practice. But at that point some of these threads just degnerate into a huge row between experts, who start using more and more complex physics to back up their argument, because they can't possibly accept that there might actually be another way of doing things! I'm not having a pop at you here at all - as you always seem genuinely interested in looking at technique in another way.
I guess the key word in this thread title is "argue". I've yet to meet anyone (excluding, as I said above, those who already ski at a very high level and are interested physics), who really finds listening to ski teachers argue a good way to learn. Most people I've taught get pretty confused when they find a ski teacher has contradicted one thing another ski teacher has said, let alone listening to them argue!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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beanie1,
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That'll be a pop at me then!
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Not just you!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Gonna throw some opinions into the pot.... its ok they're all perfect so it wont cause any arguments
rjs, gra, in that picture of Rocca..... his legs are much less than hip width apart, but when you angle your skis and shorten one leg the gap between your feet (not legs) increases wider than hip width. Rocca is a good example of what I mean however you're right, feet together in the middle of the turn is standard its what happens into and out of the turn that in my mind has changed. we used to teach that the feet converge in and diverge out, for stability, now there is talk of keeping them narrow in order to decrease transition time ana inside ski angle.
comprex, Blocking, (if my translation is correct, sorry i learn in german) occurs because when you put a ski on its side and press on it, the ski bends, shortening the turn radius of the ski. So if we put both our skis on the same angle and press (like you should) on the outside ski it will bend more and have a shorter turn radius than the outside one... result the two will come together and the inside ski will "block" the outside one from turning properly.
Finally, I think there is a very strong case for promoting technique discussion in the UK, we dont like to do it, we ski once a year maybe twice, spend thousands of pounds and therefore dont want to spend our time doing drills and technical/boring exercises. What we do like though is to make sure we do as much as possible to ensure we have as much fun as possible, therfore we like our kit (we have an amazing selection of kit and product knowledge in this country) I honestly think this is why we like debating skis and resorts more than skiing.
peace x
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Can someone fix the long link in this thread. It makes reading it a complete pain.
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| Quote: |
| when you put a ski on its side and press on it, the ski bends, shortening the turn radius of the ski. So if we put both our skis on the same angle and press (like you should) on the outside ski it will bend more and have a shorter turn radius than the outside one... |
Must.... resist....
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You know it makes sense.
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Sideshow_Bob, would that create excessive inner tip lead? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dulcamara wrote: |
comprex, Blocking, (if my translation is correct, sorry i learn in german) occurs because when you put a ski on its side and press on it, the ski bends, shortening the turn radius of the ski. So if we put both our skis on the same angle and press (like you should) on the outside ski it will bend more and have a shorter turn radius than the outside one... result the two will come together and the inside ski will "block" the outside one from turning properly.
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That's something different from what I mean by the term 'blocking', it just happens to have a coincidence of translation into English.
The 'blocking' I speak of is a bit more general of a term and it refers to any muscled action (intentional or unintentional) that "blocks" the path of the CoM. Notice that 'blocking' actions (my usage) therefore get more muscularly tiresome the faster one skis.
I'm pretty sure Fastman has written here, addressing the problem of which you speak and using the terms 'steering the inside ski' for the action required to overcome the problem you describe.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wayne,
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I personally find the ski technique / physic arguments to be mostly wiki-waffle by people who not only don’t understand the very basics of the physics they are using to back up their argument, but are mainly just trying to score points against someone with a slightly differing viewpoint.
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Right, I'm framing that one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle, don't forget to frame the one about KISS: Oversimplify 'til you're just short of gross error.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Most people I've taught get pretty confused when they find a ski teacher has contradicted one thing another ski teacher has said, let alone listening to them argue! |
I recall being totally confused while learning. It seemed one guy would say "do this" while the next would say something different. And then something I thought I was doing "well" would be changed as my skiing get better.
When teaching now I sometimes tell students that skiing is a bit like baking. Lots of recipes and ways of doing things, but you still get cake at the end of it. (if your chalet is doing apres ski )
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
When teaching now I sometimes tell students that skiing is a bit like baking. Lots of recipes and ways of doing things, but you still get cake at the end of it. |
One has to know which cake one wants.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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comprex, cherries
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JT, sorry, nut cake on offer today.
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gra, have another look, the inside ski in both pictures is almost touching the outside /stance leg.
By vertically separated, I mean there is a distance between the skis caused by the flexion/ bending of the inside leg
as opposed to a John Wayne style spreading of the legs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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comprex, wrote
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The 'blocking' I speak of is a bit more general of a term and it refers to any muscled action (intentional or unintentional) that "blocks" the path of the CoM. Notice that 'blocking' actions (my usage) therefore get more muscularly tiresome the faster one skis.
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Apologies, if possible could you please explain this instance of blocking? i.e. when the feet are closer together...
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FAQ
