I got the the below reply from Michael at 333 within a half hour of submitting my query using the dimensions 140-112-130 with a tip rocker. I'm on thehunt for a powder ski that i can still control on piste between off piste sections.
I gave you 20 cm of tip rocker with 2 cm of lift. A low profile tip extends from the rocker giving the tip plenty of rise for powder.
You have two choices on the tail section. You can shave off tail width to pin the tail. This allows the tail to sink in powder allowing your tip to plane quickly. This will also keep your body more neutral center over the ski, less quad burn. In other words, the ski geometry in the snow keeps your body geometry true.
The other option is to add tail rocker. This works best in light powder. Tail rocker can give you a back seat feel in heavy pow because you may shift back and the ski is inclined to roll your weight to the rear.
At 130 in the tail you have a good turn radius, so the ski will work well in pow, crud, and hard pack. You will be able to carve this ski. If you narrow the tail, you will lean the ski more toward powder.
The tail at 126 will give you a turn radius of 31. Still in the margin of all mountain.
You requested a twin tip, so the tip length is the same as tail. Are you sure you need this? This is great if you ride switch in the pow. Otherwise you can cut the tail length in half and get more ski "on snow."
I gotta be honest i kinda pulled the dimensions outta the air by looking at other powder ski's that are well reviewed as i know very little about ski design. I'm thinking of removing the twin tip, as i'm a long way from competent enough to ride switch in powder, and going for the tail rocker. Although i do like twins for tight manouverability (spelling???) in the trees
Well fellow thoughts?????? I'm tapping your knowledge and will re-design accordingly before parting with any cash
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I like your style, good ideas....
If, like me the only time you are going backwards is when you've severely messed up i would lose the twin tip. Its not this that makes them more maneuverable its the fact twin tips are soft and light at both ends. Twin tips also tend to mess up the turning characteristics of the ski on piste so i would listen to him on this one.
My other advice (very much personal opinion here) would be to avoid the tail rocker as it will be amazing in light powder and you have another pair to sub in but you and i both know if you're mostly skiing Europe a good proportion of the time you will probably be hacking through cut up or tracked wet pow and wont have space for 3 skis on the plane, in which case keep the tail on the ground where they belong.
maybe let us know what skis you were emulating so we know what you're looking for????
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
fastandicy, no tail rocker and NO twin tip. Twin tails suck, how often do you really need more than a slight upturn tail? They shorten the length of the ski, they hook and they make a good anchor poor.
I'm a biiiig fan of the pintail - don't exaggerate it too much, but the Lhasa Pow tail follows the tip through a turn if you drive it. The only issue is it's propensity to punish you, hard, for getting in the back seat. I'm not really convinced on tail rockers until you really design the ski towards it, and have equal tip/tail rocker (Moment Bibby Pro, Hellbent, Spatula, DPS/Praxis). A bit of tail rocker doesn't add much, from my experience.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
dulcamara, parlor, DaveC,
Thanks for the thoughts guys. I was kinda trying to emulate the Hellbent but a little thinner as i'd like it to not kill me when i'm skiing back to the lifts.
My thoughts on avoiding the pin tail was that it surely increases the radius hugely. I'm leaning away from the twin tip with your advice but still not sure of the difference between pinning the tail and adding a rocker to it. I'm concerned that if i pin it i might not be able to carve/turn it but if i go for the rocker what do i lose?
You should be able to pin the tail from its widest point e.g. go 140-112-126 then taper say a 150mm tail with 20-30mm of taper. No idea how that would ski.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
fastandicy, you don't need sidecut to carve.
fatbob, make your nose a little slimmer and I can loan you a pair. Nice shape!
After all it is free
After all it is free
I'm seriously thinking about ordering a pair, has anyone seen any reviews yet?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
HellBent, I don't think he's started full production yet so no but i'm gonna go for it out of shear novelty value.
If you don't mind me asking what did you get for your 'bents on e-bay? I saw they dissappeared before the end of the auction and presume you got a good offer and went for it.
parlor, Point taken but it does make it easier What would you go for dimensions wise if you were lookin for a pow tool?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
fastandicy wrote:
HellBent, I don't think he's started full production yet so no but i'm gonna go for it out of shear novelty value.
If you don't mind me asking what did you get for your 'bents on e-bay? I saw they dissappeared before the end of the auction and presume you got a good offer and went for it.
parlor, Point taken but it does make it easier What would you go for dimensions wise if you were lookin for a pow tool?
I was thinking this is a great idea for testing out some ski designs, I loved the Hell Bents, but there's a few little changes I'd make if I could, this is probably the easiest way of doing that. I'd also like my Steezes to have a little bit of tip rocker, the list goes on...
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
fastandicy wrote:
dulcamara, parlor, DaveC,
Thanks for the thoughts guys. I was kinda trying to emulate the Hellbent but a little thinner as i'd like it to not kill me when i'm skiing back to the lifts.
My thoughts on avoiding the pin tail was that it surely increases the radius hugely. I'm leaning away from the twin tip with your advice but still not sure of the difference between pinning the tail and adding a rocker to it. I'm concerned that if i pin it i might not be able to carve/turn it but if i go for the rocker what do i lose?
Cheers again. Mike
I think a rocker and pintail achieve different things... I haven't skied for a while so this is kind of off the top of my head, but the difference is more that a pintail is designed to sink (so keeping your tip up easier) whereas a rockered tail promotes less tail sinking than a normal cambered ski, meaning it pivots and releases a lot easier in the snow. A pintail is functional on harder packed snow, a rockered tail is pretty ineffective. A rockered tail reduces effective edge too. A pintailed ski probably requires a little more finesse and gives a more stable, driveable feeling whereas a rockered tail allows the loose, pivoty feel. Both are good, but have their own benefits. I think a ski over 120mm ish is just a bit too big for a swallowtail - the Salomon Rocker is a good example of a big ski with a big width with a swallowtail (kind of the same concept as a pin really), and I really wouldn't fancy going much bigger width wise, since apparently that ski is a tanker that's really not much of a fan of turning. Hellbents, on the other hand, have a much more friendly rep at the same 120mm mark.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
So has anyone ordered any skis off this guy???
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Nope. I'd be interested but I want to see a ski (or two) delivered to someone. I'm not aware even on other forums that any have been delivered. Apparently $30K in orders so far.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
This site is a useful resource for anyone considering designing / building their own:
Major respect to the guy, I like the look of his stuff and would be interested in an order for myself after I've heard people opinions of what they are like on the snow
Shocking if they are real pics and not photoshopped........
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
glasgowcyclops,
Quote:
Also TVR started in a garage.
The company that went bust two years ago?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Sideshow_Bob, ooops...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Starting to look like a Little Acorn - Mighty Oak Sapling - Chainsaw - Rotting Mulch story line.
What I can't get is how he's taking the time to post vids on youtube of making individuals' skis yet letting poor product ship out simultaneously destroying his nascent reputation,
3rd degree black belt. Trained both in the traditional arts and direct combat.
No collage degree.
Student of philosophy and literature.
Willing to take the hand of thy enemy and pull him from harm.
Willing to take out those who would wish to do harm to my family.
In possession of an imaging mind with 4 dimensional capabilities.
I hold my country with deep reverence. I respect those who have served and or died for our way of life, our constitution.
I believe we must take better care of our selves, and earth.
I believe education is important.
333 will stand or die by an honest attempt to stay true.
I am in trouble. My face is full of tears. I thought I would be able to move away from so much sadness once and for all.
I was born a certain way and then raised a certain way by my mother, a samurai. I was then trained in the western philosophical tradition, to both analyze and synthesis. But to the core I am of eastern blood. To be so sad, is to be alone. But I was born gifted, and would learn to suffer, with honesty, because of those gifts. I have watched friends break unto the pressures of society, of family, of greed. I extended my hand that they may not fall, but to no avail. I think of them often, when they were artists, writers, and thinkers. For one man to have lost so many dear friends.
333 was a gift. First to my daughter, and then to the world. I wished so much that if there were young people not yet sold out or distructive of self, I could give them the tools to be true to their person. That maybe, they could take their gifts and flourish and the world would be all the better for it.
I am a hated man. People may not understand why, but I am both familiar and respectful of this hatred. I am fully aware of the power of hatred but am constituted such that I cannot take of this power. I believe the core of such hatred is self-deception, that given the opportunity to recognize the truth and realize the burden of truth, a hateful person can become compassionate.
I am in trouble. I need help and as such, I am asking for help. 333 is so beautiful, the skis are so full of soul. The people who wish to learn this trade are so full of passion. Yes, I am asking for help. I do not wish to be so sad any longer. I wish to continue the work of 333 and offer this gift to an honest people.
I am broke, and in debt to a few people who are demanding refunds. The amount is near $4000 dollars. I tried to take no deposits except from a few people who were willing give without asking. I then made a decision to take full payment prior to building and shipping. I needed to solve 2 last problems, I needed money. As it turned out, we solved the last two problems but the risk taken has crushed me. 333 can build an incredibly powerful, raw ski, unadorned, a pure tool born from tears, from the soul of those who built this company, from the promise of youth. But I am not of youth any longer; she left me some time back. I am to long of the underground. I believe, from the underground a most beautiful gift may emerge. For me and mine, I would gladly sell my tools, my truck to repay this debt. But to let so much hope die, so much inspiration die, such a beautiful thing die without begging for help would be wrong.
My address is: 1725 West Highway 395
Box 44
Olancha CA 93549
I am a sole proprietor business operating under my own name.
If there is support out there, we of 333 will labor to gift this world something large, full of passion, full of promise, born of soul.
Please forgive me. I will be placing a great deal of letters written to this cause. They were not intended for the public to view.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Oh dear. So glad right now that i did not order a pair in the end. Looks like the dream is over. I'll stick to last seasons cast offs in Conrad sport for a discount
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Crikey.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Hurtle, indeed. Time for the jacket that buttons at the back....
I've followed the soap opera on TGR & telemark tips.
My take - the guy started with a great idea that people intuitively "got" hence big early interest. Whoever leaked it to the wider forum audience is a bit of a mystery but might have been an associate looking to help him build the business but lets assume this was only a timing difference as it would have got out pretty quickly anyway.
The launch was full of hyperbole but given his supposed cv in industry manufacturing people were genuinely willing to take a punt on the guy. If I shelled out $333 for a pair of skis I might not be expecting Atomic build quality or finish but it would be a trade off to ski something "cool" to see how it worked to my own basic specs. I didn't think the pricing was way too low if he genuinely had his processes sorted.
Lots of early orders came in, from people willing to take said punt. Unfortunately the guy doesn't seem to have even a rudimentary idea of business planning and couldn't handle the volume of interest. If it was me I'd have said this is Beta testing - maximum of 50 orders for the year.
Production took ages to get started. In the meantime he was posting lots of video clips on Youtube. When production started it was clear the quality wasn't being delivered. He then rather unwisely started taking his frustration out on supporters and random ski nerds posting on the internet by cancelling orders and saying "negative" people were not who he wanted as customers.
Now it seems he was doing all this without any real capital. Its a really interesting case study as a business start-up.
The funny thing is I think someone with a little less poetic soul might take the idea and turn it into something workable and sustainable, maybe at a higher price because they will have invested in proper production testing etc.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I got the feeling that trying to do all he offered in a in a trailer may have been the real weak point. It was always going to be hard to make it work in such a limited & compromised space. I'd have paid the asking price for custom ski's and don't really care if they are made in a factory unit with all the 'eco' issues that may present.
fatbob, I was a bit unclear about how much of his experience was with skis - and how much was with boards - and whether the tolerances and demands are higher on skis? Probably got this wrong
I am not quiet sure where the stuff about the black-belt and the son-of-a-Samurai fits in with a business plan rather than a mental health assessment.
If I had been in the US - happened across him in a car park, and seen an adequate product, I would have ponied up $333 for the fun of it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
stoatsbrother wrote:
fatbob,
I am not quiet sure where the stuff about the black-belt and the son-of-a-Samurai fits in with a business plan .
You never come across a Six Sigma consultant in the NHS?
After all it is free
After all it is free
A while ago I wrote this:
Quote:
I have my own opinion about such things, and it's far from positive. If it's about design, then sure go for it. You will never find better option. But if graphic design of ski is last thing you care about, I would advise anyone to stay away from this. Even though skis might look like a bit bend piece of wood with some ptex on bottom, they are really a lot more then that. Big companies spend millions to develop something better and faster, with all support from racers, with support of computer programs which far beyond programs that normal people have or even heard of. And then on the other side you have someone doing this in home garage, without any support, without any real knowledge and experience. Do you really think results are anywhere near?
And then pretty much everyone jumped on me. Are you ready to do this again now?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
primoz, depends on whether you accept that plenty* of small companies make skis that rival what the big companies produce without spending millions. Race skis maybe another matter but I doubt anyone was thinking oooh $333 for some downhill boards.
* I'll supply a list that fulfils whatever definition of plenty you want.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
To be honest, I also changed my mind about this what I wrote in one of previous posts... I wrote that time, that I agree $333 is not much, so yeah what the hell. To be honest, I really didn't know what prices are (yeah I'm lucky enough to have enough friends, that I don't need to pay for skis). But after I was arranging skis for friend later this summer, I have to say, $333 is far from cheap. New race stock GS skis (even current model) can be arranged, with knowing right people, for about 300eur. After this I actually went to check, and you can actually buy same skis, without any connection and friends, for 600-700eur (or about $600-700 in USA). So $333 was not even so cheap, especially comparing to this what you get
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
thoughts?????? I'm tapping your knowledge and will re-design accordingly before parting with any cash
What would you go for dimensions wise if you were lookin for a pow tool?
