 Poster: A snowHead
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I've just seen a reference to skiing through porridge with most weight on one ski. It bought up a thought in my mind. On the odd occasions that an instructor has asked me to take a ski off the snow for an exercise it feels really awkward. Yet, on lots of turns when have lots of weight on one ski you scarcely have none on the other and could probably easily lift it up - indeed if I'm being naughty and want to get the ski round quickly I do sometimes do actually pick it up off the ground. I wonder what happens in your mind when you think about doing it consciously compared to the natural unweighting that you do by instinct anyway in a turn?.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It might have felt awkward when you were asked to ski on one leg because you were travelling relatively slowly? It's much harder to balance on one leg at slow speeds, but at high speeds (on piste) it is instinctive to heavily weight the outside ski to such an extent that the inside ski carries no weight whatsoever so can be picked up without changing your balance too much.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, I guess that speed could be contributary to it being awkward - when you do these exercises you do tend to be going slowly. It's also not easy to lift a ski cleanly off the ground at both ends - as you sometimes see in those wonderful videos when the experts are doing the one ski skiing. Yet, if you are naughty and lift a ski to turn it you instinctively lift it clear enough and at a suitable angle for it to not trip you up. The weight of the ski virtually disappears, yet to lift it on command both ends of the ski feel awkward to lift clear at the same time I think due to the weight of the ski. I am always amazed at the way some of the professionals can do the skiing on one ski thing - it must require so much balance and practice, yet we can all ski more or less on one ski as part of most turns that we do. I wonder why the leap to skiing on one ski is therefore so difficult.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bones, I think that's what makes it so amazing when you watch the pros do it - they do manage to keep the ski fairly level.
No I guess we don't totally remove the ski from the snow, but I think we do remove a significant amount of weight from it which is getting so close to doing so, that I would think we should be able to continue on that one weighted ski with ease, but in reality it is very difficult to do so.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| - it must require so much balance and practice |
Yes, exactly right. You need to develop really good balance skills (fore/aft and lateral) to be able to ski on one leg with precision, especially at low speed. If you find it difficult to lift the tip and the tail of the ski to the same level it's probably because your fore/aft balance isn't too strong (I speak with great personal experience on this  ).
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ...we can all ski more or less on one ski as part of most turns that we do. I wonder why the leap to skiing on one ski is therefore so difficult. |
It's all to do with the amount of time you're on the one ski and inertia. When you lift a ski briefly to hoick it around it's only off the snow for a short period of time. You are almost certainly falling back onto it while it's off the ground, but it takes a certain amount of time before gravity can get your body mass falling fast enough for you to notice. So you're not actually balanced on the one ski at all, just in the very early stages of a fall. When you try to hold the ski off the ground for a longer period of time, as when skiing on one ski, there is enough time for that fall to develop, and it all goes to pot. Hence the time you need to spend practicing standing on just one ski, then sliding while lifiting for progressively longer times, lifting tip or tail at will etc., before you develop good enough balance to ski properly on one ski. And of course, the skiing on one ski thing is not how we actually want to ski normally, but it's 1) a way to acquire, 2) evidence of and 3) a natural adjunct of the balance skills that allow you to move around on the skis to the level required for higher level skiing.
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GrahamN, and if you are Bode it allows you to ski on after throwing a shoe 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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GrahamN, none of the lot of you shift your hips and re-stack? 
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| ...we can all ski more or less on one ski as part of most turns that we do. I wonder why the leap to skiing on one ski is therefore so difficult. |
You are almost certainly falling back onto it while it's off the ground, but it takes a certain amount of time before gravity can get your body mass falling fast enough for you to notice. |
A kinematic analysis will never yield up the concept of dynamic balance, let alone the concept of static balance changes being used to shift between regimes of dynamic balance.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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comprex, you should sell consultancy on how to take simple, clear concepts and turn them into unintelligible terminology...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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horizon, You've just defined "consultancy" with the possible addition
"...and pretend that such terminology is unique and the only way of addressing the issue"
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horizon, simple, clear hints are called answers not hints.
The puzzle is still there for ya, do you have a clear answer?
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You know it makes sense.
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Bones, Why would you think that you have to keep the ski parallel to the ground? there are lots of one leg skiing exercises and the placement of the lifted ski can vary what you achieve/seek to achieve by doing them. I personally prefer to start with the tip on the ground, but this is harder than the whole ski in the air for most people.
Megamum, Most people have a problem lifting the ski (inner or uphill to start) because they actually don't have all their weight on the other one - they just think they do! If you have even a tiddly bit of weight on one ski you can't lift it up. That sounds really obvious, but isn't necessarily so obvious while you're going along.
comprex, Oooohhhh - Lift up one ski and stand on the other one. If you try to balance you lose all the naturalness of the movement. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, I see what you are getting at and understand about the placement of the lifted ski etc. My reference to the ski being parrallel or nearly so to the ground was to Megamum, original post, where she was asked to take a ski off the snow, not just placing all her weight on one ski. It obviously depends on the length of your skis and was speaking from experience 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bones, it doesn't matter.
As easiski says:
| Quote: |
| Most people have a problem lifting the ski (inner or uphill to start) because they actually don't have all their weight on the other one - they just think they do! If you have even a tiddly bit of weight on one ski you can't lift it up. |
Q: Now, if you have your weight split between skis, where are your hips and center?
Ans: the center is somewhere between the skis.
Q: Now, if the center is between the skis, what's going to happen to the ski you're trying to stand on as you try to lift the other one off the ground?
Ans: It gets put on edge (or you have godlike ankles and loose boots both)
So the original question really becomes: Why is it easier to balance on an edged ski when I'm going faster?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
So the original question really becomes: Why is it easier to balance on an edged ski when I'm going faster?
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comprex, Though I often don't see eye to eye with you, I do see where you are coming from with this. Yes, I am very conscious that when I have the weight on the outside ski in the turn I do have it well and truly on edge and the faster I am going when the turn is made the more I have the ski on its edge and the more weight is shifted onto it. At times is really feels as though I am literally balanced on the one outside ski esp. if I am on something a bit steeper and am working harder. In fact I do wonder if I am coming to rely too much on being able to do this as I am using it almost as a get out of jail free thing to cope with the steeper slopes - providing I think I can get a turn in I stand on that outside ski key the edge into the slope and even though I may need to lift the inside ski to complete the move it gets me round onto the next traverse and another 10ft closer to the bottom of the steep pitch.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, No - you're not 'cheating'. We've been through this a thousand times (or seems like it) before on snowheads: all your weight on the inside edge of the outside ski works ALL THE TIME, spreading your weight works in certain circumstances. The exception is very deep snow, but we don't often get bottomless snow in Europe (once in my skiing lifetime - work that one out!), even in deep european snow you can usually feel the base and therefore ski similarly. However, if you feel the need to lift the inside ski at the end of the turn that would suggest that you are then transferring weight onto the inside ski before the conclusion of the turn (either rotating or leaning in) and you therefore need a drastic measure to correct it. All this business about standing more on two skis is fine AFTER you can ski on one! If you try to learn two footed you'll be in deep trouble when you get on a steep, icy pitch - however if you learn outside foot, you will naturally shift to more two footed skiing as you improve, and still be able to go back to one foot when necessary.
comprex, The whole point (IMO) of doing these exercises is to get people to be more balanced, and to react and re-balance as necessary, but to arrive there naturally. The more they think about it the less natural they will be. Surely, natural, relaxed, and balanced is what we aspire to for our students?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| easiski wrote: |
comprex, The whole point (IMO) of doing these exercises is to get people to be more balanced, and to react and re-balance as necessary, but to arrive there naturally. The more they think about it the less natural they will be. Surely, natural, relaxed, and balanced is what we aspire to for our students? |
I always find your comments in this forum helpful, and hopefully one day might get to have some instruction from you! I was on a course yesterday where we were being taught to do braquage turns. I couldn't do this as although according to the video analysis I set myself up perfectly, as I turned left my left leg ended up in a snowplough position and I had to lift the ski to bring it parallel. I was concentrating on trying to turn by rotating both thighs as instructed but I think I lost 'feel' for what I was doing in the process!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, (IMO) 'naturally' is often limited by preconceptions of what is supposed to move and how far it is supposed to move. Further, learned habits that compensate for those preconceptions sap energy and attention. Getting someone to go beyond those limits often requires a bit of explanation why.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Stenmark.....
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easiski, I would be on the summer camp team if I wasn't restricted to school holidays!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, Hopefully it won't be too many years before I can retire and then I can choose to ski whenever I want (finances permitting! another sore point as school holidays means high expense  )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Iski, were you at Hemel with Warren? Thigh steering and braquage gives the game away...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, Yes! I'm nowhere near as fit/young as I need to be and only started skiing last year so was absolutely shattered by the end of the day (10 - 4). They'd given us passes from 9 - 6 though so after a hot chocolate I did another half hour on the slope but only practising the hip movement in normal turns. Apart from the physical activity I think the sheer concentration is quite draining but I do really want to improve my skiing as much as possible. Myself and my OH were with Scouser yesterday.
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Iski, I probably would have seen you at some point during the day, but not on the main slope as I was teaching tiny tots on the nursery slope. Was that your first time at Hemel? It was quite busy during the day I thought, especially with the slope furniture up for the evening's freestyle session.
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, We went for an hour on the Monday of the 'Friends and Family' pre-opening event. I'm a member of Keyneskiers and we were told we'd have an opportunity to ski for free before the opening but I had a real problem sorting it out. I had already enrolled as a member though so I think that helped eventually (OH is now a member after being impressed on his first visit). Yesterday was quite a contrast to our first visit, as you say it was quite busy (what with those pesky Warren Smith people, I did hear a couple of snowboarders having a moan!) and quite a lot of the slope was blocked off. I also ended up being interviewed by someone with a video camera but not surely exactly what it was for, hope I haven't incriminated myself .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Iski wrote: |
| Yesterday was quite a contrast to our first visit, as you say it was quite busy |
Busier than I've ever seen it. Normally much quieter.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, It was also half term of course and although I wouldn't like it to get too busy when I go I also want it to be a success because it is such a good venue as an indoor slope. Not quite sure why I'm going on the 6/6 then, except of course I haven't knowingly met any  s in person and I think it would be fun to do so!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I confidently expect to be much better at skiing on one leg after the Fast 'n Easy camp in June.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Another thought. If you can't stand on one leg and wave the other one about when you're NOT on skis you'll inevitably find these exercises difficult. There are loads of excellent balance exercises you can do in your living room. Not that I do them as often as I might....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Iski wrote: |
| .......I was on a course yesterday where we were being taught to do braquage turns. I couldn't do this as although according to the video analysis I set myself up perfectly, as I turned left my left leg ended up in a snowplough position and I had to lift the ski to bring it parallel. I was concentrating on trying to turn by rotating both thighs as instructed but I think I lost 'feel' for what I was doing in the process! |
Iski, If you're stemming (ie stepping the uphill ski out in to a snowplough) during a braquage drill it's because your hips have not moved across your skis. This is the key initial move in this exercise as it simultaneously flattens both the skis on the slow so they can then be pivotted when you start your thigh steering. It a ballsy move at first as it requires a lot of committment which is why Warren & his guys start the exercise with you supporting a lot of your weight on your pole. If you start this move by leading with your shoulders (Stevie Wonder turns) your hips get left behind & you have to stem the uphill ski for support. As in many good things, it's all in the hip thrust
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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spyderjon, RPF, Thanks for your comments. Scouser sorted my pole plant out quite quickly by using me as an example of how not to do it! In retrospect I think a lot of the problem was that I was doing things in the wrong order after setting myself up, concentrating on what was happening with the skis instead of moving the hips across and then thigh steering. I need to do some more practice now I've had some helpful comments and time to reflect on what was going on. I've already pretty much decided to go for the balance and alignment work as soon as I can afford it although I only have my own boots at the moment as I don't consider my skiing to be at a level yet to make it worthwhile to buy my own skis.
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Iski,
When you get the alignment done ask Andi how much delta you need. You can get your bindings sorted later if you buy skis. Spyderjons website lists the heel toe height differences of different binding brands so even when hiring skis you will know which bindings will suit you best. and which will be way out.
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Iski, not only rob@rar you didn't knowingly meet at Hemel on Fri, but me too! I saw Warren and team putting their students through their paces when I was skiing with my 2 boys mid-morning. I did a couple of Warren's day courses at MK a few years back too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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spyderjon, I also found it all much much easier once the shorter leg was closer in length to the longer and I was not permanently "twisted" at the ankle...
That podologue at Sidas in Grenoble has a lot to answer for!!! 
I'm actually with Dave C as I know examiner/trainers who got to full cert before sorting their alignment issues out... You can compensate for a lot.... just some stuff is hard/awkward with poor alignment... The average person would be better to put the effort into technique...
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