 Poster: A snowHead
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In a multi-point newsletter emailed today today to thousands of skiers, the Ski Club of Great Britain urges skiers to ...
- "opt for train travel over air travel"
- "encourage tour operators to go green"
... and also to adopt other constructive ways to reduce litter, conserve energy, minimise use of resources and protect the mountain environment/wildlife. All very worthwhile and worthy. The full newsletter is readable here
I'm sure the newsletter's author/editor - Emma Pearson - would like to remind us what the Club and its staff are doing to reduce air pollution (in terms of main travel to/from the Alps - not transfers):
- How many journeys taken by SCGB reps last winter were by train, and how many by air?
- How many journeys taken by SCGB executives last winter were by train, and how many by air?
- How many journeys by the SCGB's travel operation (Ski Freshtracks) were by train, and how many by air?
Obviously this isn't exclusive territory for the Ski Club. The ski industry as a whole needs to reduce air pollution if we've a chance of stabilising manmade CO2 levels. How many ski operators have conducted a carbon audit of their operations, which would enable reductions in air pollution to be monitored, year by year?
Anyway, let's start with the SCGB, since my club is making a big public appeal to "keep it green".
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 12-05-09 17:22; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, sweetheart - which way do you want this one to go? You are so coy when you start these SCGB threads - you are such a tease!!!
My guesses - in descending likelihood of being right:
1. You want everybody to go the Alps driving a car fuelled by lambs.
2. You would like to be in the SCGB Environmental Working Group, again, and wish the meetings to be held on a train, whilst going to the only resort (in Scotland) supported by the SCGB.
3. You really don't like the reps - but don't like to say so.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, honeybunch - well I've emailed Emma so she can take a look at the questions above and provide some interesting answers. I've rather sprung this on her, late in the afternoon, so it's only fair to give her (SCGB New Media Executive) a chance to respond over the next couple of days. Obviously it may take a little longer for the data above to be compiled.
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David Goldsmith, yeah. it will be a real problem working out the environmental impact of lamb fuel - you really are a bit cruel. The big rpoblem is working out the methane generated by the lambs prior to them becoming - um - fuel. Maybe you should have a go yourself. Whilst refraining from farting, of course.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Goldsmith, Since when has the HUGE amounts of electricity consumed by trains been Green?
The greenest way to get to the Alps (aside from walking) would be to drive a car with an efficient petrol engine!
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Is the train really a viable alternative for most people? From what I can work out you can only get the 'snow train' from St Pancras in London or Ashford in Kent and then only to a few selected drop off points in France. Not particularly useful for any UK skiers outside of the south east or for anyone travelling anywhere other than the major French resorts.
It's like all this stuff about using public transport instead of car for commuting. For the majority of people it simply isn't possible. It would be nice to be more green with regards to travel plans but it would involve all of us living in the same places and working in the same places.
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roga, the Club's 'Big Spring Clean' is taking place at Cairngorm and Nevis Range, on 31 May. I think that's a good idea.
In terms of supporting Scottish skiing (and I agree that it has quite a lot to do with British skiing!) it's important to note that the Club's foundations were largely laid on Scottish mountains, because it was so complex and expensive (and cumbersome) to get to the Alps by sea and train in the early 20th century. The Club's yearbooks from 1905 to the 1950s have lots of interesting articles about Scottish skiing. Obviously things developed quite rapidly in Switzerland etc. too, but the Alps were a pretty expensive destination for British skiers for the first few decades.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't have a wish list (aside from gathering the data prompted by the first posting). I don't have a hit list either (you'll be relieved to know).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Actually, I think, if they are encouraging their members to be "green", DG's questions are fair game  .
As in the recent politicians' expenses row, I'd like to know if the rules are the same for everyone!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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maggi, I'd stress that the SCGB's encouragement is being circulated to all skiers on the emailing list of the newsletter, which is a number many times greater than the club's own membership.
queen bodecia, I've no opinion on how you travel to the slopes - it's up to you. After all, you're not giving me 'tips' or 'instructions' on how to 'keep it green'
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Lets face it - the concept of 'being Green' has become a marketting term?
In recent years big corporations are all to keen to advertise their green credentials.
Not because they think its the right thing to do...
But simply because it helps increase sales, and promote's consumer products in a good light.
A classic example is the Toyota Prius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius#Criticisms
Is buying a new car actually helping the enviroment !? Probably not.
OK - so the SCofGB press release might be well intentioned.
However the reality remains that travelling to the alps (or canada!) for a ski holiday is one of the most enviromentally unsound things that you can do
...and yes, sadly, I am as guilty as the next!
However lets not kid ourselves just because it makes us feel better ?
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Tue 12-05-09 17:56; edited 3 times in total
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You know it makes sense.
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maggi, the doing the 'green' thing is thanks to DG - I remember the AGM where he raised it. Frankly, I think it's daft - and the SCGB gets into a tangle because 'greeness' and skiing don't really go together easily - and if a way of 'green' skiing could ever could be determined, it would be done by an effort way beyond the club's competence. So I think the let themselves be placed into an impossible position by DG - which is its own fault - and hence, I suppose, makes it fair game as you say.
Anyway, since DG always has an agenda when he's bashing the SCGB - which one do you think this this time? Or do you think he's playing a bluff, and this is really about sH terms and conditions? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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achilles, DG is a disloyal member and should be thrown out, in my opinion.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PJSki wrote: |
| achilles, DG is a disloyal member and should be thrown out, in my opinion. |
But PJSki if it were not for David Goldsmith the SCGB would rarely be mentioned on snowHeads, so perhaps you should really look upon him as Director of New Media advertising for your club
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I got that Edge email today and immediately dumped it. The worst crime in communication is talking down to the audience and that, unfortunately, is what they always do. DG is right to ask if they practice what they preach and I bet the answer is "no". I think they'd get more respect if they just dropped their whole botched green agenda and get on with the hedonism. Resorts will take care of their own environmental issues, aircraft manufacturers will contuine to clean things up and cars will over time just get more efficient and last longer, train routes will expand. Tourism ain't green but peopler who believe it are.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| achilles wrote: |
maggi, the doing the 'green' thing is thanks to DG - I remember the AGM where he raised it. Frankly, I think it's daft - and the SCGB gets into a tangle because 'greeness' and skiing don't really go together easily - and if a way of 'green' skiing could ever could be determined, it would be done by an effort way beyond the club's competence. So I think the let themselves be placed into an impossible position by DG - which is its own fault - and hence, I suppose, makes it fair game as you say.
Anyway, since DG always has an agenda when he's bashing the SCGB - which one do you think this this time? Or do you think he's playing a bluff, and this is really about sH terms and conditions? |
Don't misrepresent history, and don't misrepresent me. I simply requested at that AGM that the Ski Club discontinue its heli-skiing activities. You'll therefore recall (it's all in the minutes, after all) that the Club responded at that AGM by establishing an Environmental Working Group. The matters which cause you concern were not initiated by that group but by the Club's marketing division and Respect the Mountain campaign.
The Environmental Working Group was charged with advising the Club on how to allocate its 50p environmental levy on membership, and - for instance - advising on establishing a tree-planting project with the Woodland Trust.
I'm in no way responsible for that newsletter, or any other 'green propaganda' put out by the Club.
PJSki / Tim Brown, once again I extend a friendly invitation to meet you for a drink and a moan face-to-face, rather than this 'anonymous jack-in-a-box' approach. It could get you out of the credibility crevasse.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| roga, the Club's 'Big Spring Clean' is taking place at Cairngorm and Nevis Range, on 31 May. I think that's a good idea. |
Agreed, just a shame they can't provide more accurate winter season news and promote actual Scottish skiing a bit more IMHO as well as picking up Scottish litter
| Quote: |
| In terms of supporting Scottish skiing (and I agree that it has quite a lot to do with British skiing!) it's important to note that the Club's foundations were largely laid on Scottish mountains, because it was so complex and expensive (and cumbersome) to get to the Alps by sea and train in the early 20th century. |
Not sure that's what I've read or understood as the background of the SCGB but point me to a few sources and I'll re-evaluate 
| Quote: |
| The Club's yearbooks from 1905 to the 1950s have lots of interesting articles about Scottish skiing. Obviously things developed quite rapidly in Switzerland etc. too, but the Alps were a pretty expensive destination for British skiers for the first few decades. |
I have the 1937 and 1948 ones yes, but they give me the impression that most of what the club is doing is alpine based but they do give a few nods to Bill Bracken and others up in Scotland and the resulting articles are fascinating indeed but I don't think they had any leading, or frankly supporting, role in Scottish skiing at any point. Skisters by Myrtle Simpson is a case in point where references to the SCGB are pretty brief although E C Richardson does get an honourable mention as one of the earliest 'skisters', travelling up from England to sample the 'delights' of the Scottish mountains. However I would argue that even his contribution was rather marginal towards the overall development of Scottish skiing, most of which took place post-war and was undertaken by native Scots, many from a completely different backgrounds (try Frith Finlayson and Bob Clyde for starters!  ) to the 'gentlemen' and 'ladies' of the Ski Club at the time.
| achilles wrote: |
| roga, I did say I was guessing at DG's wish list. |
I know...
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| I don't care whether you are keeping your membership or not. Do what's best for you. None of my business. |
I know 
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The origional post by David Goldsmith, has its merit. I will follow somebody should I wish to, I will not be lectured or instructed to do something by someone that may not follow their own dictats!
Let us see the answers and we can all decide at that point. I do however think it is a case of "do as I say and not as I do"!!!
I await the reply of the club, if they even bothered to show us how green they are. I dont mean green as in no knowledge of marketing 
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Without offset, there's no way anyone in Britain can ski green (excepting the lucky few who can skin up a fell or Scottish hill if the occasion allows). SCGB might do better to create a scheme to allow members (or all skiers) to offset voluntarily rather than badger the operators, and try to expunge their own consciences by passing the buck.
Respect the mountain still holds, though.
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SCGB are a bunch of dicks, Snowheads rule
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I (and the family) flew to Geneva this year to ski, then to Los Angeles with a couple of internal flights for the same purpose. Next year we'll be flying to Geneva and Denver for the same purpose. We're especially evil because we fly business class (courtesy of all the air miles I get by flying around the world on business).
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| ...... Resorts will take care of their own environmental issues, aircraft manufacturers will contuine to clean things up and cars will over time just get more efficient and last longer, train routes will expand. Tourism ain't green but peopler who believe it are. |
Spot on.
| Quote: |
| .... I think they'd get more respect if they just dropped their whole botched green agenda and get on with the hedonism. |
It'd work for me.
| Quote: |
| ..DG is right to ask if they practice what they preach and I bet the answer is "no". |
Ah. But it was he who was the trigger for them getting into their current muddle, IMV. Mind you, as grown up boys and girls they didn't have to let him persuade them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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David Goldsmith,
| Quote: |
PJSki / Tim Brown, once again I extend a friendly invitation to meet you for a drink and a moan face-to-face, rather than this 'anonymous jack-in-a-box' approach. It could get you out of the credibility crevasse.
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PJski/Tim Brown
why not join us in Hemel on June 6th? I'll be passing your manor I could give you a lift if you like I'm sure we could squeeze you in between the kids and the nanny
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| .....I'm in no way responsible for that newsletter, or any other 'green propaganda' put out by the Club..... |
You set the SCGB 'green' behemoth lumbering. It's all making the SCGB look rather silly here, now. OTOH, bearing in mind the sloppy nature of journalism these days - perhaps the PR as presented in the media actually works for the public at large.
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achilles, if you examine the facts - instead of your usual obsession of making me the bogeyman - you'll discover that I kept things very simple. The Club was encouraged to:
1. Discontinue organising heli-skiing, and by all means leave those who wanted to heli-ski to book it independently of the SCGB.
2. Focus on air pollution (CO2) as the issue and adapt the Club's operations to generate less of it. To undertake a regular CO2 audit (as many companies have been doing for the past few years).
3. To plant trees, since they are vital to skiing and the atmosphere. The 50p levy partly financed this.
As a committee, the Environmental Working Group specifically encouraged the Club not to persuade members (or in this case the general public) to change their habits. We agreed and advised that this was not the Club's role (partly because it sets up the kind of scrutiny this thread is about) but the Club could do lots of good by adapting its operations and uses of resources to set an example.
Fairly early on the Club's PR and marketing operation swung into action, and that's why what you've witnessed is primarily PR-based and marketing-based. I can assure you that this was not our doing!
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| .....2. Focus on air pollution (CO2) as the issue and adapt the Club's operations to generate less of it. .... |
Which rather proves my point. As BS rightly points out, skiing is a hedonistic activity. Pretending that it can sensibly be 'green' and low on carbon emissions is delusional. Promoting the notion that the circle can be squared, and in particular the bizarre notion that the SCGB can play a significant part in it, has got the SCGB into the mess it is in here over its PR.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| achilles wrote: |
| Pretending that it [skiing] can sensibly be 'green' and low on carbon emissions is delusional. |
You know perfectly well that there are umpteen ways of skiing with minimal carbon emissions, or gaining the same quality of skiing by radically reducing carbon emissions. To take two extremes: the trans-continental skier who flies with his own hardware and then spends ten days using heli uplift, against the skier who catches a train to the Scottish hills and hikes into the magic wilderness of the Highlands.
Which is more hedonistic?
Where is the delusion?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| achilles wrote: |
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| .....2. Focus on air pollution (CO2) as the issue and adapt the Club's operations to generate less of it. .... |
Which rather proves my point. As BS rightly points out, skiing is a hedonistic activity. Pretending that it can sensibly be 'green' and low on carbon emissions is delusional. Promoting the notion that the circle can be squared, and in particular the bizarre notion that the SCGB can play a significant part in it, has got the SCGB into the mess it is in here over its PR. |
Nobody is saying or suggesting that skiing is ever likley to be a "green" activity.
But that is no reason not to promote reducing the "carbon footprint" of the activity. Thus making it greener.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As my skiing has progressed, it has become less green and more black - the colour of most carbon. Add in the double-diamonds, and my carbon ski-print is quite large.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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alex_heney, you'll chase your tail. For example, I decide to go ski touring. whizzo - so no carbon foot print for the chair lifts - except there was little or none, since the chair lift was powered by nuclear or hydro electric power. In contrast, the skis were probably made in China (who knows?) and so generated carbon emissions which would not have taken place had not people like me been hiring/buying extra skis. Anyway, off I climb, feeling greenly virtuous to a remote mountain hut. What could be more pure? Well, just that the hut is supplied and has its waste removed by a helicopter - so I probably would have got more skiing in with less carbon emissions had I stuck to the lift system. And so it goes on. You and I are not equipped with the data to work it all out - and despite all the public carbon emission calculators, nor I suspect is anybody else - and certainly not the SCGB. It should have stuck to the promotion of good recreational skiing for its members. Thanks to DG stirring things up, it did not, and he is now able to start threads casting doubts on the Club's PR on the green thing, ask for explanations. It is an alternative occupation to skiing, I suppose.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| achilles wrote: |
| It should have stuck to the promotion of good recreational skiing for its members. Thanks to DG stirring things up, it did not ... |
Yeah, right. You'll be accusing me of strangling the office cat next.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
David Goldsmith, Since when has the HUGE amounts of electricity consumed by trains been Green?
The greenest way to get to the Alps (aside from walking) would be to drive a car with an efficient petrol engine! |
I'm sure I read somewhere that coach / bus travel produces less pollution per passenger mile than a car. I imagine whoever did the maths was assuming the bus was full and probably not full of lardies, either!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
David Goldsmith, Since when has the HUGE amounts of electricity consumed by trains been Green?
The greenest way to get to the Alps (aside from walking) would be to drive a car with an efficient petrol engine! |
Diesel my boy, diesel. Far greater energy efficiency.
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I suppose the greenest way to get to the Alps would be to move there and stay there. If only...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| Boredsurfing wrote: |
David Goldsmith, Since when has the HUGE amounts of electricity consumed by trains been Green?
The greenest way to get to the Alps (aside from walking) would be to drive a car with an efficient petrol engine! |
Diesel my boy, diesel. Far greater energy efficiency. |
Ah yes, thats why I can get to Paradis on one tank
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Frosty the Snowman, diesel contains about 20% more carbon per unit volume than petrol, so the "green" advantage is not so great as the mpg advantage.
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FAQ
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