 Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, I don't think anyone can compare English and French on here! You have RP, I have a broad Yorkshire accent. I'm sure our pronunciation of "lay", "let" and "fur" would be hugely different  .
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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maggi, well, yes, and that's what the international phonetic alphabet is for. But, even in Yorkshire, there's a difference between 'late' and 'let' (for example) so one can make a reasonable crack at an agreed sound. Can't so easily do that with the 'eux' sound, though, as ccl explained. It's a minefield, of course. But 'lay derzz alp' ain't right in any accent!
Lizzard I agree, Kruisler rules! Mind you, he hasn't actually opined on 'lay' though he agreed with 'duh'. 
Sorry, this is indeed geeksville. I just like (am obsessed with?) the sound of languages. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mr L has been reliably informed that an English accent pulls the birds
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How hugely encouraging. I always feel that a French accent is super sexy but that in comparison the way we speak French is horrible. Maybe it ain't necessarily so.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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moffatross,
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shortening of the French language with word / part-word omissions and apostrophes was an indication of good education
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maybe, but as Kruisler implied, you've also got the Academie Francaise* pulling the other way, wanting everything classically correct.
*Sorry, can't be bothered with the accents!
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[quote="Lizzard"]I can't quite see why this thread has progressed beyond Kriusler's contribution, since he is native Frog-person and clearly knows exactly how to say it.
[ /quote]
Well, Kriusler's contribution was one of the problems I had with the various suggestions of the pronunciation of deux.  If by "duzz" he means the vowel sound is as in the English word "fuzz" then I am very puzzled. Is this in a regional accent? Have a listen to Stage 3 Intonation in questions "ça va", "une table pour deux" here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/french/lj/pronunciation/
That's what I understand to be the standard pronunciation of deux; and that's what I hear around me when I'm in France, even from those with a ferocious southern accent (let's not go into what they do to cinq, vingt, cent etc)
On the matter of pronouncing, or not the final "s" of a place name, I reckon it is just a matter of having to know in each case. There ain't no rule. The wine Gigondas and the place Val Thorens both have the s pronounced. Calais doesn't.
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ccl,
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If by "duzz" he means the vowel sound is as in the English word "fuzz" then I am very puzzled
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No he doesn't - he agreed with my suggested 'duh' (itself very approximate, I grant you! Your link is of course spot on, but SO difficult to describe in equivalent words.)
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On the matter of pronouncing, or not the final "s" of a place name, I reckon it is just a matter of having to know in each case. There ain't no rule. The wine Gigondas and the place Val Thorens both have the s pronounced. Calais doesn't.
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Yes, it is a matter of knowing, but it's sometimes complicated by differences between locals and non-locals. All Vaucluse locals voice the 's' in Gigondas, but I've met some other French people who don't.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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no matter how badly that you think you're speaking French (within reason), the natives seem to respect you so much more for trying
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I wish that was inevitably true, but I have come to recognise that rise of the eyebrow and slight pursing of the lips which means "what the hell are you on about you daft old bat".
As for shortening things, Francoise (my super French teacher) is always trying to stop us sounding things out syllable by syllable. So not " je ne suis" but "jensuis". The other thing she bangs on about is how essential it is to use the subjunctive if you hope to sound even vaguely convincing. Whenever I can produce one, knowing it's correct, I always wish she could hear me! I was whiling away a journey in the car this morning, listening to a French Harry Potter story, and was surprised how many subjunctives I spotted - when I first heard the story I didn't spot any so my ear must be improving.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pam w,
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I wish that was inevitably true,
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Ahem. (While we're on the subject.)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hurtle, Here's a question. Would a (French) English teacher have spotted a were/was faux pas ? And BTW, what's the international protocol for finishing a sentence inside of brackets with a full stop ? Or leaving a space between the end of a question and a question or exclamation mark for that matter which I have always done but now find that MS Word chastises me for !!
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 4-03-09 0:10; edited 2 times in total
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laundryman, il faut qu'on soit courageux.
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You know it makes sense.
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moffatross,
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Would a (French) English teacher have spotted a were/was faux pas ?
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Dunno. The mood isn't quite such a big deal in English as in French, is it?
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what's the international protocol for finishing a sentence inside of brackets with a full stop ?
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I try to follow this rule: If the brackets surround an entire sentence then the full stop at the end of the sentence stays within the brackets. (This is the procedure you should follow.) If the brackets only surround part of the sentence, the full stop goes outside. This is the procedure you should follow (under* normal circumstances).
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leaving a space between the end of a question and a question or exclamation mark
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I've never actually noticed anyone doing that before. It looks odd to me.
[super-geek alert] *ugh, don't like that 'under' - should be 'in', because circumstances go around something, they don't sit on top of them. [/super-geek alert]
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Good moaning.....has anyone seen the gateaux from the chateau??????
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| I've never actually noticed anyone doing that before. It looks odd to me. |
I'm hoping it's going to propogate as apparently that's how language evolves. That said, for the first 20 years of my life (by the 'u' before 'e' except after 't' rule), my written 'day after Monday' was 'Teusday'. That never caught on either but it took several years of marriage to correct it. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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moffatross,
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
ccl,
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If by "duzz" he means the vowel sound is as in the English word "fuzz" then I am very puzzled
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No he doesn't - he agreed with my suggested 'duh' (itself very approximate, I grant you! Your link is of course spot on, but SO difficult to describe in equivalent words.)
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Well, I am glad of that. Perhaps the best suggestion I can think of is saying the English word the with the lips pushed well forward. In the end, the only satisfactory and accurate way to describe the sound of words is to use the international phonetic alphabet, but that's rather specialist knowledge.
I reckon that not knowing whether to pronounce the final s in a French place name is a small problem compared with the difficulties some British place names and surnames must give our learners! (No space before the exclamation mark, you might notice.) Not to mention the placing of the full stop within the brackets. And the last sentence and this one not having a finite verb. And starting a sentence with and .......
Language is fascinating.
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ccl, and what about seemingly obvious sounding Scottish place names !!
Kirkudbright ... ker-koo-brie not ker-kud-brite
Glenrothes ... glen roth-us not glen rowthes
etc, etc ...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ccl,
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Language is fascinating.
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Agreed. I've really enjoyed ambling along these byways with like-minded  s. Thank you.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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moffatross, milngavie (mlguy?)
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Hurtle, Pardon? Les - plural for the - usually pronounced lay (as near as I can write it) Deux - french for two - usually pronounced der as near as you can write it. Bescause Alpes starts with an a the x from deux is run into it - therefore dr schuss's effort sounded closer to the pronounciation that is normal. Excuse me for diagreeing - I've only lived here for 18 years. 
JT, Quite
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, I think it was on a pronounciation thread like this a while back that you mentioned the name of a book. All I remember thinking is that it would make a great present for husbands birthday. That day is approaching, & I can neither remember the name of the book or what it was about Please can you help?
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| easiski wrote: |
| .... Deux - french for two - usually pronounced der as near as you can write it.... |
Pronounced der?? Isn't this confusing folk even further? It is difficult to replicate the vowel sound other than in the phonetic alphabet, but consonants are easier. There is no r sound in deux. Or was that a typo?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| easiski wrote: |
Hurtle, Pardon? Les - plural for the - usually pronounced lay (as near as I can write it) Deux - french for two - usually pronounced der as near as you can write it. Bescause Alpes starts with an a the x from deux is run into it - therefore dr schuss's effort sounded closer to the pronounciation that is normal. Excuse me for diagreeing - I've only lived here for 18 years.
JT, Quite |
I think you might have missed some of the subtleties aka geekeries of this thread, the upshot of which is that "as near as you can write it" doesn't capture the reality.
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| genepi wrote: |
| Hurtle, I think it was on a pronounciation thread like this a while back that you mentioned the name of a book. All I remember thinking is that it would make a great present for husbands birthday. That day is approaching, & I can neither remember the name of the book or what it was about Please can you help? |
Pronunciation? No, sorry. You don't mean a grammar book, do you? I do have one of those, a huge tome called 'A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language' published by Longmans. Maybe that was it?
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You know it makes sense.
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milngavie (mlguy?)
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I thought it was mnguy, but then I didn't live in Scotland for long.
I don't think the vowel sound in "deux Alpes" as described by Kruisler can be reproduced either in writing (or in my case in the gob) in English. It's certainly doesn't exactly rhyme with "fur", nor les with lay. I have a regular walk I do from our apartment (in summer, it's covered in snow in winter) which for some reason always has me muttering French expressions I'm trying to learn, or trying out those subtle pronunciations (e.g. "biscotte" which doesn't ryme with "spot") as I walk through the deserted forest. I hope it's deserted, anyway.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, Exactamundo. (Please do look out for the men in white coats, though!) Btw and fwiw, when I used to mispronounce French words as a child (I can't remember not speaking French, one half of my family is effectively French - in the same way that I'm only 'effectively English') people used to correct me by getting me to change the shape of my mouth and/or the position of my tongue. I think that's what it boils down to in the end, doesn't it? Thus, your tongue should - I think - be further forward, towards your teeth, when you say 'biscotte' than when you say 'spot.'
Or something. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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*mounts high horse*
Actually, the pronunciation on Les Deux Alpes does not invole elision.
Elsion is the omission of vowels, e.g. l'hotel where the 'e' of 'le' elides into 'hotel' because it begins with a vowel (here preceded my a silent 'h'). Didn't, can't, wouldn't are all examples of elision in English.
In pronouncing Les Deux Alpes you are actually verbalising the end of the syllable in 'deux', thereby ADDING a consonant sound rather than omitting a vowel sound.
*descends from high horse*
To help you remember about elision, you can always repeat this:
Homer was a clever man
He couldn't rhyme, but he sure could scan.
And so to put it beyond all doubt
He used elision and left out
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, No, it was a history of France, or the Savoie, I think
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's a liaison, isn't it?
I remember an enjoyable French pronunciation lesson during supper with our neighbours, being told how to pronounce "abbé" "abbaye" and "abeille" so that they all sounded different. Too much wine had been drunk for me to be sure I could remember it correctly now!
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genepi, oh yes, I think that's one which has been recommended by lots of s - Graham Robb's 'The Discovery of France' published by Picador, won loadsaprizes.
zammo, lovely bit of geekery that. I salute you! pam w, I think you're right about liaison.
Actually, thinking a bit more about pronunciation, another important (not to say obvious) point is that one has to be able to hear the nuances in the first place. Some people just can't. I used to sing in choirs of which the legendary David Willcocks was chorus-master. His ear for music is incredibly acute - the difference between, say, A Sharp and B Flat is meat and drink to him. But his ear for foreign languages is something of a joke, as I think he would acknowledge - German, Italian, French, he mangles them all. Mind you, he does know what an 'e acute' should sound like viz his requirement for the pronunciation of the word 'excelsis' which, to satisfy him, should sound like 'éggshéllsees'. This is clearly audible on his King's recordings. "Yes, yes, e acute, e acute!" I remember him urging.
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the difference between, say, A Sharp and B Flat is meat and drink to him.
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Lummy! If it was meat and drink to me, I'd starve.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ccl wrote: |
| easiski wrote: |
| .... Deux - french for two - usually pronounced der as near as you can write it.... |
Pronounced der?? (snip) There is no r sound in deux. Or was that a typo? |
More likely is that easiski has a non-rhotic accent and you, being Scottish (?), have a rhotic one (i.e. you sound your rs and she doesn't). So by "der" she means roughly the same as "duh".
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| I used to sing in choirs of which the legendary David Willcocks was chorus-master. His ear for music is incredibly acute - the difference between, say, A Sharp and B Flat is meat and drink to him. |
Fortunately, with equal temperament, the requirement for a split black note on the piano no longer exists. Hurrah.
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FAQ
, the mysterious destination asked of the Glaswegian bus driver by the English backpacker when setting off for the West Highland Way. 