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Your ideas for Policing / Improving the pistes/resorts to cut down on death.

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
1) A skiing licence. (like you need a driving licence to drive) So no skiing licence = no ski pass.

2) Deadicated slopes for people who want to speed without anyone getting in the way.
The rules for the slope can be,

a) only so many people alowed on at the same time.
b) time restrictions for being on the slope, controled by the ski pass. So for example you get 5mins to get on and get down to the chair lift)

3) Helmets madatory.

----------------------

I think the number 2 idea is a decent one.

1 & 3 would probaly take the fun out of skiing / boarding and also reduce the number of people doing it.
Which would then affect bussiness's in the resorts.

I like to have the option of a helmet or not.

Maybe the skiing / boarding licence isnt such a bad idea. It could be a one day course, and would create more business for the people running it.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
1 impractical - far too many skiers (most of whom cannot ski may weeks a year) to riun through the system.

2 Maybe. But in practice the problems with speeding tends to be on the home run.

3 won't significantly cut death - from the reports I have read.

If the European nations really want to clamp down, then laws need to be introduced to give piste patrollers powers of arrest, and the power to confiscate passes, for reckless skiing.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
achilles,
Quote:

in practice the problems with speeding tends to be on the home run.

Agreed. My experience of skiing in North America (fairly limited) is that there are more patrollers and fences to slow people down, at least towards the end of home runs and at bottlenecks. We could do with more of that in Europe, I think, even without powers of arrest.
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i dont know what the stats are on head injurys whilst skiing relating to death but i do think a helmet deffinitly helps save lifes and stops people have to go to hospital. My brother banged his head once, and carried on skiing. 2 hours later he had to go to hospital and have a CT scan and stay in over night.

He only remembers being in the hospital. Doesnt remember banging his head, skiing down the slope, or traveling to the hospital.

A helmet would have prevented that.
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That sounds like a good idea hurtle
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Karl Moto, AMA report on ski helmets.

Quote:
Taken as a whole, there are insufficient data for the CSA to conclude that the AMA should adopt policy in support of mandatory helmet use for recreational skiing or snowboarding. This position is consistent with the position of other major medical and ski organizations.


ski-injury.com comment - you will see that the consensus is that helmets are really only effective against minor injuries.
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Karl Moto, I forget the figures, but there are something like 100 million skier days in europe each year and you can probably multiply that by 3 for the entire globe to take in the north American, Japanese and smaller markets. There are deaths of course (the vast majority being cardiac issues I reckon) but in terms of death & severe injury per skier hour, winter sport has a miniscule problem. Horse riding, paragliding, scuba diving, rugby... all safety-conscious sports but folks die doing them.

Skiing license... non starter - over 3,000 killed on our roads each year by people with licenses!

Speedy slopes might work but I suspect you are merely redistributing the rate of injury.

Helmet... no thanks.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Hilarious. Laughing

I'm afraid I have bad news here - you are not going to 'cut down on death'. You might postpone it a bit, but that's all you're going to do. If you're so worried about the whole thing, stop participating in a risky sport and go back to knitting.
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We mostly have "smart" passes these days. My suggestion is that patrols be stepped up, with reckless skiers (which would include people unable to control their descent down slopes patently too difficult for them) would get a "first stage warning" electronically registered against their pass. A "second stage" warning would work like the gizmo which prompts the gate to say "enfant" and would say some local equivalent of "dangerous dickhead". Third warning - pass is confiscated and face of offender registered so that the technology would not allow the sale of another pass for the remainder of the season.

Might require some improvement of the facial recognition software.
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Nothing more than everyone being taught what their responsibilities are on the slopes, then taking personal responsibility by acting on them. I'd like to see a few more pisteurs reminding slope users what those responsibilities are when they observe dangerous behaviour. This could include temporary or permanent suspension of their lift pass for the most serious cases. This would be for a very small number of people I suspect, but the fact that it can and does happen should make some people a little bit more mindful of their duty of care to those people they share the slopes with.
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How about this for an idea? The ski area computer system logs the time at which each skier gets on a lift and when (s)he arrives back at the lift again. From this the system can deduce how fast (s)he came down a particular slope. If the speed he came down exceeds the limit set for that slope then (s)he gets barred from going back up the lift again for a time calculated to be long enough to annoy! The liftie sets up a bar next to the chair and sells Jägermeister to the barrees while they sit out their penalty!
Toofy Grin
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rob@rar, Probably the most sensible and practical answer. As Bode Swiller, said many more deaths on roads by people who are supposedly licenced. A licence wont make people ski any differently, just more red tape. Lizzard, is also right. This is a sport... a risky one. Just like many others, we all know the risks and must take those into account. One of the best things about skiing is that you are up in a wild environment with carries a risk due to its extremity. The freedom of being in this big dangerous extreme world would be somewhat shattered if there were a policeman on each corner or a gatso camera - I'm sick of looking for those in my normal day to day life! Yes, there are some idiots out there, but that is life... there are plenty of idiots around us every day. Choose a resort with fewer idiots.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
make a drink driving law for skiing, sorts out all the problems in one go. Smile
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

helmets are really only effective against minor injuries.


I'm happy with that - I don't like being injured. For the same reason I wear protective gear cycling or playing hockey - helps prevent from bumps.

I think more piste patrol is the answer. Always recall seeing them in big numbers on the runs into resort at closing time in the US, all with radios, so anyone spotted being a muppet was stopped and had their pass suspended.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar, Good comments which I agree with, the Italians have police on the slopes and you are never quite sure where or when they are going to appear and they do confiscate lift passes.
Perhaps all resorts should have skiing policemen?

Steilhang, Wouldnt work as you have good skiers who would come down in a fast time but it still wouldnt stop the idiots who would still be out of control.
pam w, How long would this process take? Most nutters are only in resort for a week.
stab, Breathalisers at the first lift in the morning? The slopes would be very quiet Laughing
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Speed limits take no account of competence - the beginners you see hobbling down red runs are generally going very slowly, but that doesn't stop them being a danger to themselves and others - sliding down out of control after missing a turn. And breath tests wouldn't catch the daft youngsters. Suspension of passes would be best - with a bit of work on the technology the pisteurs could have a kind of "gun" which would stop the pass of the offender being used for an hour - or forever, in the case of a particularly heinous offence. It would be quite fun for the pisteurs - they could have a competition for accurate shooting. The offender's pass would give a big bleep - to let him (they're mostly hims) know he'd been copped.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
AMA report on ski helmets.

Quote:
Taken as a whole, there are insufficient data for the CSA to conclude that the AMA should adopt policy in support of mandatory helmet use for recreational skiing or snowboarding. This position is consistent with the position of other major medical and ski organizations.

This is a selected quotation from the summary to this report. And all it actually says is "there are insufficient data for the CSA to conclude that the AMA should adopt policy in support of mandatory helmet use for recreational skiing or snowboarding". I.e., we don't propose mandatory helmet use at present.

The previous paragraph in the summary reads:
Quote:
The total number of serious head injuries suffered by young skiers and snowboarders is small compared to other skiing injuries. Young skiers do, however, have a greater risk for suffering a head injury than do older skiers. Although there are limited data on the effectiveness of helmets to prevent head injury among recreational skiers or to reduce the severity of injury, the experience with bicycles suggests that helmets may be beneficial. A cost analysis also suggests a potential benefit from helmet use when the estimated cost of injury avoided is compared to the estimated cost of either first year, acute medical management, or annual long-term care of skiers with
traumatic brain injury. Because of the lack of data on children and youth, however, these cost results must be interpreted cautiously.
(My italics)

That puts a different slant on the results. You can make your own interpretation.

The argument "that the consensus is that helmets are really only effective against minor injuries" is also no reason for not using a helmet, as others have said.

My understanding is that current evidence confirms that helmets do reduce the effects of head injuries. But it is obviously a very emotive subject amongst skiers. Each (adult) skier should decide how much their head is worth to them. My reckoning is that I could survive a broken leg (or such) but a head injury could really spoil my day.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I think this site should be re-named snowHelmets.
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I must admit I'm shocked since joining this site and having access to resort news stories that there seem to be so many collisions. I'm certainly not a newbie at skiing and apart from a minor incident of my own, I haven't really seen any examples of this. There's a lot of talk about crowded pistes and apart from the last one home to the resort at the end of the day, I haven't really seen any examples of this either. I honestly think resorts/pistes were busier back in the 80s...

However, something has clearly gone wrong. The 'new' shaped skis certainly aren't faster, so are they harder to control? Or is tuition not teaching people suitable control and/or piste etiquette? Or is having a mix of skiers and boarders on piste adding to the mayhem?

Policing the slopes is just going to add heavily to the cost of skiing and make it even more of an elitist middle-class recreation. But it might be the only answer. Does that mean that someone skiing dangerously can have their lift pass confiscated? In which case what's to stop them buying, or even stealing, another?

Final point, although these news stories are quite rightly reported on websites such as this, are they truly representative of what happens on piste? Is the truth more akin to my experiences, where collisions and crowded pistes are a rare event? In which case, are we in danger of getting a little bit paranoid...?

Just a few random thoughts as this is such a thought-provoking thread...
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queen bodecia, new ski technology means that what used to take 6 weeks to master on skis, now takes 2 weeks, and boarders can get around the mountain quite quickly within a week of learning, all of this means that there are more slope users now who can go quicker at an earlier stage in their sliding development than 20 years ago, which also means that more sliders on the slope have less experience for their ability than before, and probably less knowledge of piste etiquette and 'rules of the mountain'. Addressing these issues in what ever manner would make sliding safer, and as a minimum a 3 hour class room 'safety/slope use' lesson (that results in a license being issued upon attendance) which would be mandatory for the issuance of a ski pass, would seem a good idea
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Piste-side snipers.
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Restrict the numbers, only one person on any piste at one time Toofy Grin
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote:
Piste-side snipers.


Excellent idea and possibly the only one that would work. Laughing
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, we have enough of those here... or is that a cheap shot?

If anyone is serious about more regulation I reckon the booze situation needs to be looked at. Accidents and collisions tend to be a hangover away.
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A snow sliding alcohol limit( the same as when driving on the road) and random Breath testing conducted by authorised Piste patrollers should be made Law.

A lot of people in Europe didn't like the seat belts,breathelizers, speed cameras,the smoking ban, and many other laws that were imposed on them but they have to comply or else they get punished.


This will not be popular with resort owners either but so what?

I would not expect anyone employed at a resort such as a lift attendent or a piste basher driver to be over the limit so why should anyone be at risk from anyone who is over the alcohol limit behaving in a dangerous manner.

Come to think of it Substance abuse whilst driving is an offence so why not random test for it on the Pistes.



To sum up,

Get the Dopes off the Slopes.
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espri wrote:
............The argument "that the consensus is that helmets are really only effective against minor injuries" is also no reason for not using a helmet, as others have said.

My understanding is that current evidence confirms that helmets do reduce the effects of head injuries. But it is obviously a very emotive subject amongst skiers. Each (adult) skier should decide how much their head is worth to them. My reckoning is that I could survive a broken leg (or such) but a head injury could really spoil my day.


The OP offered the idea of making helmets mandatory as a means of cutting the number of skiing deaths - my post was in response to that. I accept the medical opinion that helmets can cut down the number of unpleasant minor injuries - but that is not what the OP was about. The best site I am aware of for giving advice on the subject of ski injuries and their prevention is ski-injury.com. I am loathe to quote it verbatim, since Dr Mike Langram, the site owner, has a dislike for being quoted out of context. However, his views on helmets are from the best qualified person I know to give dispassionate advice. He feels that the main effect of helmets is protection against against minor injuries. Nothing wrong with that ( I frequently wear a helmet accordingly) but he does not suggest they will have an effect of death-whilst-skiing statistics - but does talk about their lack of protection for high-speed impacts.

You refer to 'current evidence'. If you have any that outweighs the thoughts of Dr Langram, do let us know.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Several Swiss resorts are trying Chillout riding zones on their slopes. http://www.zermatt.ch/e/latest/chillout_riding/chillout_riding.html
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If people want to kill themselves, let them. Its a pretty sad affair if pistes have to be "policed".
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
davidpratt15 wrote:
If people want to kill themselves, let them. Its a pretty sad affair if pistes have to be "policed".


i think it is the killing others tahat is the issue
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:

A snow sliding alcohol limit( the same as when driving on the road) and random Breath testing conducted by authorised Piste patrollers should be made Law.



My travel insurance does statein the general exclusions section:-

anything caused by the direct or indirect effect of you using alcohol or solvents
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Stop the brutal grooming

I suspect the stats show that most deaths occur on groomed pistes - either skier on skier collisions or excessive speed and collision with piste side obstacle. Avy deaths are probably smaller. So stop grooming and you eliminate some muppetry. wink
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
What will happen is that the European alps will soon follow North America and get ski patrol.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pam w wrote:
with a bit of work on the technology the pisteurs could have a kind of "gun" which would stop the pass of the offender being used for an hour .


That is sheer genius! Only flaw is they'd probably shoot the wrong person! Would be cool though, piste side laser quest.

I agree with the alcohol issue, the only problem is imagine somewhere like St Anton without the booze.....
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queen bodecia wrote:
I must admit I'm shocked since joining this site and having access to resort news stories that there seem to be so many collisions. I'm certainly not a newbie at skiing and apart from a minor incident of my own, I haven't really seen any examples of this. There's a lot of talk about crowded pistes and apart from the last one home to the resort at the end of the day, I haven't really seen any examples of this either. I honestly think resorts/pistes were busier back in the 80s...

...

Final point, although these news stories are quite rightly reported on websites such as this, are they truly representative of what happens on piste? Is the truth more akin to my experiences, where collisions and crowded pistes are a rare event? In which case, are we in danger of getting a little bit paranoid...?


You start by saying you are shocked there seem to be so many, then question that at the end.

I think you are right to question it. There really aren't all that many, when you consider the sheer numbers of people who go skiing, and look at the numbers of deaths reported - and they are reported because they are newsworthy, not because they are the norm.

I also think that "business" is going to depend an awful lot on where and when you ski - a small resort in mid January is going to be very different to somewhere like Val D'Isere in late February. Like you, I have very rarely skied on any run which I felt was so crowded as to make it difficult to find a safe line, but almost all my skiing has been in January.
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Some of the better ideas on here seem to require US style numbers of piste patrol. However I seem to recall hearing that the latter are mostly volunteers who I assumed to be unpaid. I am not sure if this could be done in Europe (I would be interested to hear views) and if the patrollers were paid I cannot see the resorts being able to sustain it, given the other pressures on skiing now (climate change etc).
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snowball, was a few years ago, but when we used to ski in the US there were Piste Hosts who were volunteers - they basically skied around all day and helped people who looked lost, pointed out sights etc. The Piste Patrol were all employed by resort.
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Maybe i should have made the topic tilte "Your ideas for Policing / Improving the pistes/resorts to cut down on deaths & injurys".
Blush

I think the patrols on the slopes is a good idea.
To cut down on the lunatics speeding past & cutting people up & generaly putting others at risk aswell as themselfs.

I think if some one wants to go off piste then that should also be allowed except if its into a marked avalance risk area.

Over all, skiing / boarding is a dangerous sport and you do have to be carefull. A certain amount of policeing may not be so bad. But over policeing would be a nightmare.. I read on here last year about a Speed Camera on the slopes.. i think it was in switzerland, can you imagine how s**t that would be? I do like to speed down the slopes myself (not all the time), but i stay out of the way of of other people, and if there is traffic down hill, ill slow down / stop / and get around or in front of them..

how about this... snowHead

WHAT WOULD YOU CHANGE or DO TO IMPROVE SKIING or BOARDING IN RESORTS & ON THE SLOPES. TAKEING INTO ACCCOUNT SAFTY & ENJOYMENT
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
snowball, The volunteers are technically unpaid, but the ones I have spoken to all get a free seasons lift pass Madeye-Smiley They are generally locals who care about their mountain and resort. Often they are retired or part time workers. The usual requiste for this deal is to give up one or two days a week to the mountain. They are usually the mountain ambassadors as opposed to piste patrol who are paid and deal with other important stuff on the mountain wink

Its a great idea which tends to work well in North America as lift pass removal does happen. It probably wouldnt work as well in Europe due to resorts layouts as the mountains tend to be free for everyones enjoyment, where as in North Americathe mountain is usually owned by the resort, which is one of the reasons for ski boundaries Smile

If however the culprits are only there for a day visit, or purchasing day passes then its not quite the deterrant the loss of a weeks/ 13 day or season pass would be.
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here is one for the above...!

I heard that in America they dont have the pull down bar on chair lifts, the reason being that anyone who slips out underneath or injurs themself on it would tend to sue the chair lift company when they got injured.
I think this totaly unaceptable. If the problem is people suing the chair lift company then there should be a law to stop it, or people should sign a waiver. Its prob easyier said than done.. but anyway..

Also there should be a madatory independant body to make sure the chair lifts are in tip top condition.
(there must be something like that anyway?

ive never skied out of europe myself, this was just something i heard last January from a Kiwi.. Smile

im supprised by the amount of chair lift accidents. Especialy the one on the Kitzsteinhorn, the one that caught fire!! Nasty! I read about it on here when it was the 10 year anaversary (i think)

I went the Kitzsteinhorn last year and there was an eireie feal to the place. I wasnt aware of what had happened at the time, it was post visit that i found out about the horrific tradgeady. Im sure someone here could hook a link to it for those who dont know.
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I wouldn't venture on-piste without my ski/boarder proof suit (me pictured in my tele version during a white out).
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