 Poster: A snowHead
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My heart bleeds for ed.bremner and his family - I can hardly imagine the disappointment of not being able to go skiing when the excitement must have been mounting up for ages and completely agree with his decision not to go on an alternative holiday, when he'd specifically chosen a resort that was suitable for everyone.
I also think it's highly commendable the way PipT has come on here and explained the situation. It's a bit shocking to hear that overbooking is so much the norm, and probably surprising that more of us don't have problems because of it. Would also just like to say that I've been on holiday with Neilson (more sailing than skiing) a few times in the past and have always been looked after very well.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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mmm Boredsurfing - gave myself permission to respond - the buck stops here! We've nothing to hide - it was a c**k up that we tried to find a good solution to and in this case failed. Not sure any rules have been broken here that could put 'snowheads' in hot water. They could have pulled the thread - but that's not the spirit of these things - and we wouldn't have asked - so I'm pleased they had the kahoonas to let it run. We only 'pull' threads on our own forum when they start getting personal - forums aren't the best place for a good slagging - that really can get you in deep legal waters!
Respect to the snowheads webmasters too for creating a fair and open forum - not sure we're learning anymore from this thread though so might be best to let it lie! At this rate I'll be a 'super-head' or whatever by the end of the week!
Have to go now - coldest day of the century and our office heating gives up the ghost - so need to go home and thaw! Been promised a man with a 'special' fuse will be here in the morning. Been an odd day - really felt like a ski company with all in beanie hats and ski wear all day!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PipT, credit to you for explaining Neilson's actions, but I have to say I find it hard to believe that you were not able to source any accommodation for two families in the Courchevel valley. In the early part of January there must be significant under-occupancy in many, many places. It might have been that you would have taken a financial hit as there is every possibility that alternatively sourced accommodation would have been more expensive than your original supplier, but in the interests of (a) delivering your clients dreams and (b) not sullying Neilson's normally good reputation I would have thought that a small price to pay. That assumes, of course, that examples of over-booking like this are relatively rare so your company wouldn't have many occasions during a season when it made a loss on a booking?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, go back and read what PipT, says about they only use certain beds that pass their standards.....
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| But a bed isn't simply a bed - a Neilson bed has to be 'inspected' to ensure the property meets our health & safety standards. We've worked with the Federation of Tour Operators (FTO) to produce a code of practice to ensure that our properties not only meet local regulations but meet the recommendations from the experts we employ to audit all our properties. Sounds complicated and it is but we want to be sure that the properties we put our guests in are not only comfortable but also safe. |
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| PipT wrote: |
| At this rate I'll be a 'super-head' or whatever by the end of the week! |
Pah, part-timer - Spyderman made it to hors piste (500 posts) in just a couple of days - or it seemed like it  But seriously, now you've found Snowheads, albeit in less than ideal circumstances, it would interesting if you stuck around. Admin has managed to create a place where both the supply (industry) and demand (consumer) side meet
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| kitenski wrote: |
rob@rar, go back and read what PipT, says about they only use certain beds that pass their standards.....
| Quote: |
| But a bed isn't simply a bed - a Neilson bed has to be 'inspected' to ensure the property meets our health & safety standards. We've worked with the Federation of Tour Operators (FTO) to produce a code of practice to ensure that our properties not only meet local regulations but meet the recommendations from the experts we employ to audit all our properties. Sounds complicated and it is but we want to be sure that the properties we put our guests in are not only comfortable but also safe. |
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There are some pretty nice places in Courchevel which I'm sure would meet anyone's standards! If Neilson have public liability issues from putting clients in uninspected property maybe they should inspect a few hotels as backup in case mistakes are made and overbookings happen?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Nice try Greg - have you looked at our prices recently? If we go any lower we'll be paying you to go!
Seriously though - Neilson are 'big enough to matter and small enough to care' (sorry) - but our buying power allows us to create some great value packages and if you're able to travel out of peak dates and to a lesser known resort there are some real bargins out there. And unlike some operators we're still taking bookings for ski stuff in resort ie skis, boots, schools, passes etc. - allowing you to avoid the poor local exchange rates and make big savings on these ski essentials.
The snow is the best it's ever been - don't miss out on the best skiing/boarding in a generation!
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| PipT, credit to you for explaining Neilson's actions, but I have to say I find it hard to believe that you were not able to source any accommodation for two families in the Courchevel valley. In the early part of January there must be significant under-occupancy in many, many places. It might have been that you would have taken a financial hit as there is every possibility that alternatively sourced accommodation would have been more expensive than your original supplier, but in the interests of (a) delivering your clients dreams and (b) not sullying Neilson's normally good reputation I would have thought that a small price to pay. That assumes, of course, that examples of over-booking like this are relatively rare so your company wouldn't have many occasions during a season when it made a loss on a booking? |
This is where I was coming from. Obviously you have a certain level of quality you have to maintain, but maybe the OP would have been happy to take a chance on unchecked accom in the right resort in exchange for a discount. Or surely the hotels had space - the Courcheneige for instance is still advertising special offers all through January. Or maybe you looked at those options - I'm into the realm of speculating about the content of the negotiations between you and the OP, which you are both fully entitled to keep private.
As both a consumer in the ski industry and the owner of a service business, I can see both sides, but when I've been let down by suppliers, the cost of failing to deliver what was contracted far outweighs the loss incurred in sourcing an alternative solution. And even then, if the mistake was your supplier's and not yours, then you should have been able to claim against them for any additional costs incurred, leaving you in a neutral position... I realise time was at a premium, and at this stage nothing can compensate the OP for the disappointment, but I just find it really difficult to get my head round how it got to the stage of you being completely unable to fulfil the original contract & the OP having to cancel; I always had a better impression of Neilsons than that
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| - the Courcheneige for instance is still advertising special offers all through January. Or maybe you looked at those options - |
Funnily enough that's the place I had in mind when thinking about where else Neilson could have looked to place ed.bremner and his party. I find it difficult to believe that the Courcheniege or similar places were completely fully booked. I wonder how much flexibility (in terms of budget) Neilson's on-the-ground reps had when trying to source alternatives to the over-booked accommodation?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Woooaaahh! - 'take a chance' - there are some properties we wouldn't touch with a barge pole - some we have restricted sales into ie certain floors or even rooms - some 'pass' with flying colours. Health & Safety is a very 'British' thing and whilst it's a pain in the butt - we do see the sense in it all and would rather an un-happy guest than an injured one!
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PipT, are you really saying that you wouldn't book clients into places like the Courcheneige because they don't meet your standards?
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You know it makes sense.
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Not at all - it's not a property we feature therefore we've not audited it - so therefore 'we say' we can't use it. There wasn't time in this case to send an auditor to Courcheval to inspect 'new' properties - all the ones we featured were full.
We've created a rod for our own backs with the FTO codes but they're based around expert opinion and lots of overseas experience - they're not law but our own 'rules' - all FTO operators play by them - we think they're good so we'll stick with them!
I have to go now it's very cold here!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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PipT, I think it is commendable that you take the safety and welfare of your clients (and hopefully staff) very seriously. But surely it's just good practice to make contingency arrangements (such as pre-inspecting a couple of potential over-flow properties) for times when there are cock-ups by either you or your suppliers?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Busy up there on the moral high ground is it?
This thread is someone's story of utter misery at the hands of your company. You are now using it as a platform for free advertising. Pointing out that the ski holiday of a lifetime is currently an experience not to be missed is astoundingly unempathetic in the circumstances.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| PipT wrote: |
| Not at all - it's not a property we feature therefore we've not audited it - so therefore 'we say' we can't use it. |
I'd have thought exceptional circumstances warrant at least giving the customer the choice - tell him you've not audited it but can get him in. Won't take him 10 minutes to check out the hotel's web site and decide whether he thinks it look OK. And at least hotels are audited by someone (even if it's not you) which covers your back. Or get your resort rep to pop their skis or board on and hop on the Jardin Alpin for 10 mins and pop in and have a look, unofficial but better than blind... Better than having him cancel at any rate which is surely the worst possible outcome for all concerned.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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paulio, You're wrong. The easier option would have been for Pip to ignore this thread and deal with the client privately in the knowledge that this thread would soon die and its Google ranking would soon drop. Your rudeness is uncalled for and does not act as an incentive for other TOs to respond in the constructive fashion that Pip has.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| paulio wrote: |
| This thread is someone's story of utter misery at the hands of your company. You are now using it as a platform for free advertising. Pointing out that the ski holiday of a lifetime is currently an experience not to be missed is astoundingly unempathetic in the circumstances. |
I wouldn't say 'utter misery'. Considerable disappointment, irritation, and frustration, perhaps. Even anger. But 'utter misery'?
If there's a cock-up, there's a cock-up. The remedy is either refund (and last minute DIY to Courchevel) or a comparable alternative (as Neilson's offered). Compensation for not receiving the specified resort would be nice, but should customers expect it?
Given the ski hire wasn't via Neilson, it's sounds like they addressed that issue with fair compensation. I'm also not surprised they wouldn't provide a guarantee that the alternative package would remain the same or cheaper overall.
If one is specifically wishing to go to Courchevel, then the refund may be the best option, but if it's a ski holiday that sounds like it took quite some time to organise, and Courchevel was simply the preferred resort, then Les Arcs ain't bad. I'd go for that rather than face the hassle of re-organising a trip on another week.
If the alternative has many other issues that render it far inferior such as impractical childcare, etc. then that may well make the alternative unviable. One might then hope that more options and alternative packages could have been explored to meet the group's specific needs. It doesn't really sound like Neilsons said 'take it or leave it', i.e. it sounds as if they were willing to address needs (as opposed to compensation/sweeteners).
Perhaps Neilsons might have booked the Courcheneige or other unaudited Couchevel accom given a quality waiver? Effectively, a travel+resortrep only deal.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| horizon wrote: |
| PipT wrote: |
| with DIY packaging more and more common many forget the (often hidden) benefits that booking with a reputable operator can bring. |
Well, it IS safer to stay in the UK rather than fly off to the Alps and throw yourself down the slopes...
Sorry PipT just couldn't resist  |
| PipT wrote: |
| Agree 'horizon' - we and our guests do a lot of crazy and potentially dangerous activities - but nice to know you can sleep peacefully! |
Not sure PipT quite saw the irony here .... ? horizon, very funny !
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| masmith wrote: |
| Not sure PipT quite saw the irony here .... ? horizon, very funny ! |
What, you mean, "Book with a reputable operator and obtain the hidden benefit of improved safety through remaining in the UK due to double-booking rather than engage in a dangerous sport, that one might have a greater risk of ending up doing when arranging a DIY package?"
Do DIY packages really have a lower cancellation/double-booking risk?
At least realiable TOs can offer ready-made alternatives, but then I guess if your DIY trip falls through you can also pick up a last minute TO deal - except if you've arrived in resort to find the DIY chalet condemned, or hotel double-booked.
Where DIY exceeds TO, is in the transfer. Too many times I've got up at 3am on the Saturday morning to depart, and too many times, 5am on the following Saturday to return, having spent 5 hours in a Lyon hangar. The other big downer is the TO's misleading pricing, and laborious brochures and websites that make it take far too long to figure out how much a particular package costs and what the heck is comparable with it.
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crosbie, I do not know if diy has more, less or the same probability of being overbooked, but I would assume that OP and co. will be safer this week in Blighty than they would have been on the slopes of Courchevel, or elsewhere. That's all 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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crosbie, I do not know if diy has more, less or the same probability of being overbooked, but I would assume that OP and co. will be safer this week in Blighty than they would have been on the slopes of Courchevel, or elsewhere. That's all
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HI, just finished reading your post. Not sure if this is of any use to you, we had a problem with a holiday we had booked to Canada for a large group for Xmas one year, at the last minute we found out that two of our group flight had been cancelled & re-booked traveling via USA, even the dates of travel had changed! the dates were the key part of these two members traveling seperately to the rest of our group, due to work commitments.
Needless to say we had huge rows with Tour operator and huge rows between the group while trying to resolve matters, but where we found real help & advice was via our house contents insurance policy, we had a legal helpline. The soloicitor gave here advised us that as we had paid via credit card they were jointly liable for the claim, which potentially large, giving it covered a party of 16.
In our case the flights had been booked 11 months in advance, the travel company had changed the flights, without informing us around June, for travel at Xmas, the failiure on their part had been they had not notified us in June, if they had we would have only have been entitled a refund or we would have had to accept the news flights offered, which were not suitable. Our freinds only found out when they went to confirm flights online they realised they did not exist, on contacting the tour operator they advised us the flights had been changed, but as they had failed to notify us of the material change, this was deemed to be significant under ABTA rules, we were advised we had a strong case .
If you have booked using a credit card, contact them & say that you feel that the Tour operator has breached their contract with you & that under the credit consumer act (act 75 I think) you are holding them jointly liable, they have tremendous pressure (when they want to use it that is) we got a very satisfactory outcome for our party, although we did all go on the holiday, there was no extra extra cost to us, but this was only sorted at the 11th hour and only because credit card company got involved, we were able to get them to intervene by saying we would claim damages from as well as the tour operator, which you are legally entitled to do.
Good luck hope things work out for you. Shame you you didn't go we went to Les Arcs with last year with mixed group & had a great time, funnily enough have just spent Xmas in 3V with same group & also had a fab time again.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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These things happen - in a lifetime of travel we'll all have arrangements that go wrong. It goes with the turf. I think PipT has explained Neilson's side very well, they've done their best for the OP and I find myself feeling more likely to book with them as a result (that's if I wanted to use a T.O. in the first place of course).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well after 2 pages of chat between Neilsons and everyone else Ed has not responded. Two sides to a story..... PipT came in once it was coming up on google. PipT explained their side well, clearly good at her job, maybe some of the other staff should have done a better job in the first place. This could have been salvaged. I was in the Alps last week and was told that it is quiet all over the Alps this week, so it is hard to believe that a large tour operator like Neilsons could not deliver. What would Watchdog say I wonder?
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chrisb, PipT is a fella
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You know it makes sense.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| ... they've done their best for the OP |
I don't think they have, unfortunately. Credit for coming here and explaining, so it's clear that they have made some effort to address their failing. But I'm still not persuaded that it was impossible to find accommodation in a valley the size of Courchevel during one of the quietest weeks of the season. That might well have involved spending more money, and might have required a bit of forethought about contingency plans for when these things happen (which all the industry people on this thread say is the case). So no, they have not gone the extra mile to make sure that they have satisfied their client's dreams, IMO.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bode Swiller, How do you know he is a fella?
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, The only thing about Courchevel this week is that it is high season for them as it is Russian New Year today, but with the oil price low are there that many Russians there?
Only resort I have been to with signs in French, English and Russian and the adverts at 1850 for Russian banks!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| chrisb wrote: |
| rob@rar, The only thing about Courchevel this week is that it is high season for them as it is Russian New Year today, but with the oil price low are there that many Russians there? |
Perhaps a Russian oligarch made Neilsons an offer they couldn't refuse and said "I want the entire hotel! Just tell your punters the hotel was double booked, and preferably send 'em somewhere else, Les Arcs say".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bode Swiller, And we all have Great Expectations of him. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Pip Tyler of Neilsons
edited to change status
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 6-01-09 23:27; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, we'll probably never know but I suspect they didn't go the extra mile because the OP went OTT. It really comes down to the paperwork you sign up to when you buy a package (the dreaded Ts&Cs). It's a legally binding contract between two parties. It appears to me that Neilson have acted in accordance with that contract and gone above and beyond it to help their customer get a result. Anyone that thinks the OP would win in court is wrong... the first thing the judge wants to see is the contract and they can really only base their judgement on that.
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What would Watchdog say I wonder?
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Nothing. The big tour operators get fewer complaints these days and they are pretty good at sorting them out when they do. Not a story for Watchdog. How many serious complaints have been posted up on this forum regarding Crystal, Thomson, Neilson (apart from this one), Inghams etc. Not many. Can't think of one lately.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bode Swiller, Well now I have seen the water ski ing photo......
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deleted post
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 7-01-09 0:00; edited 1 time in total
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| chrisb wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, How do you know he is a fella? |
I saw him go into the gents at the ski show
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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No, the founder of Neilson was a bloke called John Neilson.
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| Quote: |
mmm Boredsurfing - gave myself permission to respond - the buck stops here! We've nothing to hide - it was a c**k up that we tried to find a good solution to and in this case failed. Not sure any rules have been broken here that could put 'snowheads' in hot water. They could have pulled the thread - but that's not the spirit of these things - and we wouldn't have asked - so I'm pleased they had the kahoonas to let it run. We only 'pull' threads on our own forum when they start getting personal - forums aren't the best place for a good slagging - that really can get you in deep legal waters!
Respect to the snowheads webmasters too for creating a fair and open forum - not sure we're learning anymore from this thread though so might be best to let it lie! At this rate I'll be a 'super-head' or whatever by the end of the week!
Have to go now - coldest day of the century and our office heating gives up the ghost - so need to go home and thaw! Been promised a man with a 'special' fuse will be here in the morning. Been an odd day - really felt like a ski company with all in beanie hats and ski wear all day!
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I work in complaints and I read the first thread and the initial response from "PipT"... I thought OK.... there are two sides to every tale etc.... BUT....
Neilsons are a big company, they do not reply as "neilsons".... the above responses are very unprofessional. I think PipT has got to the chat forum mentality far too quickly and i am not convinced by any of this nonsence.... would you see Norwich Union or Direct line responding on a chat forum as "pipT"...
I have no doubt that there were issues on both sides, but that is up to the consmere to express as such on this sort of forum, a professional co should act in an apporpriate business manner!
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FAQ
s.... commonly referred to as the looney bin.... beware... like the Hotel California.. they let you in... but it's damn difficult to get out again... 
