Tour Operator Fiasco

A snowHead

Hi Guys,

Pulling my hair out and wondered if anybody had any advice.

Am planning on taking family skiing including 3 newbies, one under-five and mum who wants to keep skiing to quite a gentle level mainly with the little one.

Wanting to stick to Tarentaise Valley, we (with another family) booked a Neilson Holiday through FastTrack back on 10th of November in Courchevel 1850.

Courchevel offers really good facilities to little kids and un-confident newbies, including quite a few free runs, lots of easy green runs, plenty of gonderlers which are good for taking the little one on. It also has a good value family pass at under 600euros. So we were well happy with that and went ahead and booked our ski-rental in Courchevel 1850.

We were happy until, 4.30 yesterday (New Year's Eve) when FastTrack ring up to say that Neilson had double booked our chalet and we were all being bounced to some un-specified chalets in unspecified part of Les Arcs. Way I reckon it Les Arcs (as much as I have enjoyed skiing there) has no way got the facilities for family skiing that Courchevel 1850 has - for instance it has only got one green run across the whole resort!

Of course, as they rang up at 4.30, it was too late to do anything....and today was a bank holiday, so Neilson have not been able to tell us anything.

We should be leaving tomorrow am to drive from Cornwall to London, but instead have to chase FastTrack and Neilson.....

What does one do?

I guess they will claim that Les Arcs is a comparable alternative. But I don't think so!

Does one take the trip and complain about it.

Or do you not turn up and just take them straight to court?

I will be happy to do that if I have to.....but all I really want to do is get the kids skiing somewhere they enjoy their first experiences and I think that is much more likely to be in Courchevel than Les Arcs.

Any help or advice would really be appreciated.

cheers

eib

A snowHead

I think if you went in front of a judge and complained that you had been moved from Courcheval to Les Arcs and wanted compensation he would laugh. Try and get free lift passes of Neilson or something but court ain't an option.

Sorry, much as you are disappointed you won't be. Great substitution. Heading out to Les Arcs tomorrow as well and bringing 3 kids for their 5th holiday to Les Arcs. Be calm you will have a ball. Cool

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

What appalling behaviour! Skullie

How can the chalet be "double booked"? rolling eyes

Are you clear whether the mistake was made by Neilson or Fast Track?

Either way, they are not offering you what you contracted and paid for, so IMV you are under no obligation to accept another resort. At the very least you would be due a full refund plus any other costs reasonably incurred. Don't let the barstewards get away with it! Evil or Very Mad

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Had a similar problem once with a Courmayeur holiday booked with Ski Solutions. They said I had a problem. I said no, it was they who had a problem - but I would accept and upgrade to a 'better' resort. They agreed - and gave the two of us who were affected a Bladons Lines holiday at St Anton - which I was more than happy to take. Very Happy

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

ed.bremner, Welcome to snowHeads, sorry your first post is to describe such horrible circumstances. If you want to go to Courchevel 1850, I would insist on it, that is the basis of the contract. I don't believe that, in January, another chalet cannot be found.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Welcome to snowheads.
This isn't unusual with tour operators and agents. I've been let down on several occassions, for a number of reasons.
2 x double booked.
1 x we are pulling out of te resort,cos its the end of theeason (even thought the resort didn't close for another 3 weeks)
1 x what booking? upon arrival in resort.

Sorry to say that it is very difficult to get reasonable compensation, but go for it!

Sad

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

ed.bremner, I'd play merry hell with the TO. If it doesn't work out... les Arcs has great kid friendly areas... many blues are almost like greens elsewhere.

After all it is free

ed.bremner, welcome to snowHeads

I would try and talk to Neilsons/Fast track and tell them that it isn't acceptable. however, having booked and looked forward to a ski holiday, I wouldn't cancel. While Les Arcs may not be perfect, it's not too bad a place, and I'm sure that you could have a good trip there....and then play hell with them! Whatever happens, don't let this get in the way of you enjoying the trip (I know that's hard, but.....).

Turn up and get on the bus to Courchevel. That is where you wanted to go, that is what your reservation confirmed, where is the problem??? It is not with you it is a problem for the TO to find you a chalet of similar if not better standard in COURCHEVEL!!!

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Hi Everyone,

thanks all for your supportive posts. Good to see an active forum alive and kicking!

I would like to say that I don't have anything against Les Arcs myself.... I have skied there quite a few times, mainly coming up and over from Villeroger and really always enjoyed myself (especially the ridge down from Aigule Rouge). I think for a reasonably competent group of skiers it would be just great and anyone on their 5th ski-trip it would be a doddle.

But I have a family of very un-confident newby skiers, two teenagers on their first trip and a 5 year old and mum, for whom I think the whole experience needs to be really easy and fun (on piste....and off) .....which is why I figured that Couchevel 1850 really does provide that kind of experience.....and Les Arcs does not.

If it was just me....to be honest I would go over to St Foy, which I adore, but again it would not be right for all the kids.

thanks again for all your support,

I will post tomorrow once I have talked to the tour operators again....and hopefully be off straight afterwards.

cheers

eib

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

ed.bremner, how very, very, annoying. I'm not surprised you're tearing your hair out. Courchevel 1850 is, indeed, ideal for your group and after you spent a long time choosing it, that's where you should be going. Have you had a look to see whether anybody has any last minute deals for this Saturday in Courchevel?

snow reports

ed.bremner, Welcome to Snowheads

Sorry it's in these circumstances.

Having had past experience of a TO changing our resort / acommodation at short notice, I sympathise but our experience was that as they were offering 'a comparable alternative' (it wasn't) they weren't interested in any dialogue. We took the alternative offered, as finding something else for a group of 12 was impossible, but made a nuisance of ourselves with repeated contacts, phone calls etc and ended up with free lift passes in the new resort plus various other 'sweeteners' - despite this we have never used them again and wouldn't as their customer service is non-existent. Hope you get something sorted out, and have a great time, but I would definitely follow it up on return.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Had a similar problem a few years ago, was booked into a chalet in La Rosiere but last minute switched to hotel in Les Arcs. At the time was mighty peeved as we'b booked La Ros for value for money. We added up the extra 'cost' of going to Les Arcs, i.e. higher prices for lift pass, ski hire, ski school - and after some persuasion this was deducted from our bill. We also insisted on having free wine with dinners as this is what we had paid for in the chalet and again that was agreed to ... and for 7 nights, not 6 !

And as it turned out, the hotel was excellent and we doubtless had a better time in Les Arcs than we woudl have done in La Ros. Every cloud ...

My advice, fwiw, quickly work out how you will be inconvenienced, in terms of cash or otherwise, make the TO aware of this today, then go away, enjoy what you have and follow up on your return if you feel it necessary. good luck .. and have a good hol.

A snowHead

difficult to argue, though, that Les Arcs is likely to be more expensive than Courchevel 1850.

A snowHead

Like the others, it happened to us on the kids first skiing holiday about 12 years ago. Again, we had the phone call a very few days before we were due to leave.We had booked Alpe d'Huez for a Feb half term the previous June (so how come it was us that was double booked and not the other people). Were offered La Tania when it was still being developed. They tried to tell us that it was higher quality than the deal we had booked but in our view it wasn't because of the lack of easy runs back to resort and various other factors. Stuck out for a more acceptable alternative and was very difficult about it. Ended up with a chalet in Tignes, which as it happens probably worked out better.

Agree with masmith - make sure that TO meets any excess charges like lift passes, ski school and wine with dinner etc and be difficult until you get to the point that you are satisfied. Don't just accept it because it is so close to the time you are going. Don't believe that they have only just discovered the double booking. TO must have waited until a few days before you go in the hope that you will just accept it meekly.

Have a great time!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

ed.bremner, What are your options should you wish not to accept the new offer, do you have the right to cancel and get a full refund ? In which case, are there any other last minute bargains around you could snap up that better meet your needs ? Just a thought ...

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I'd fire off something in writing before you go, just the facts of how the holiday offered does not suite your party in the way that the one you booked did. I would ask when they were aware of the problem and may even hint that many snowHead

's are watching the outcome with great interest. Then go and try to have a great time but mention to the rep anything that the alternative holiday is lacking to give them the chance to compensate.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Again,

thanks for all your support!!!

Well its 14.10hrs.....we started with the phone calls to FastTrack again at 8.00hrs this morning.

I have had to leave it to do some other stuff but the negotiations are continuing.

Problem is, that if we are going to get the flight tomorrow morning....we have to get in the car and go very soon.

When I left it 30mins ago....the situation was that they were completely adamant that they were unable or unwilling to provide a similar holiday in Courchevel for any other week this season unless we paid the difference with current prices.

They have been offering quite a few sweeteners for the holiday in Les Arc 1800 and I think the time will come when we will have to accept them and go.

But whatever they offer....the bottom line is that all we want is the holiday that we originally purchased in November!

Anyway....one of the sweeteners looks like the rooms they have got for us have 'wireless networking'.....so if they do I will be able to report back when there

Smile

I don't know Les Arc 1800 as I have only gone onto the resort from Villaroger....so what is is like?

As for going independently......

You are talking to the converted.

In almost 20 years of skiing (most in the Tarentaise), this is only the 3rd holiday booked through a tour operator that I have ever taken (and highly likely to be the last).

But in the past, it was only me and some mates driving down in a car. This trip I have 5 of us including two teenagers, a four-year old and someone with a bad-back so it is not quite the same.

Will report back later

cheers

eib

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

ed.bremner, good luck - I know how frustrating both the problem and trying to sort out a solution can be. We have had two major TO hassles in the past, and now would not use them (luckily, I don't have to now Very Happy

)

Make a note of how long you have spent on the phone etc., and when you do contact them for compensation, ensure you include cost of calls, time spent away from work dealing with THEIR ineptitude which became your problem etc - have a tres bon vacances in the meantime Very Happy

After all it is free

ed.bremner, You are probably on your way, so good luck!
Have you had any contact with Neilson? What was the accomodation in CV1850 you were originally promised?
Please keep us upto date with the outcome.

ed.bremner, Lots of good advice above - keep a log of all the hassles and inconvenience but then forget about it all and concentrate on having a good holiday. snowHead

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ed.bremner, 1800 has a couple of very easy runs right above where the pistes start. Probably better for beginners than 2000.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Well.....

still here at the moment.

given up on trying to get to Courchevel.....

but still trying to agree a fee to cover the extra costs of going to Les Arcs.

Problem was that we had booked ski-hire and pre-paid.

So we will loose our deposits on booked ski-hire....and have to pay full price rather than the -35% deal we had for booking in November online.

Family lift passes also go up from 580ish euros to over 700 euros.

It all adds up and although they are offering some money as recompense, we don't reckon it will pay back our additional costs let alone repay us for the time, inconvenience or upset.

Neilson's close at 17.00hrs....

we have to leave about 19.00hrs to be able to drive overnight up-country to Gatwick.

Anyway.....

Hope to hear soon....

We have been at it all day since 8.00hrs this morning.

In the end they just seem to have you by the short'n'curlies

hopefully this will be my last post till either I am in France or I have returned.

cheers again

eib

snow reports

Its prob best to go with the accomadation they have offered you, my past experiences of les arcs is a lot better than Courchecel anyway, its great. i used to work for a TO and if there is any problems with the accomadation as long as they transfer you to the same standard or higher and offer some sort of compensation, you will not have a leg to stand on in court.

My advise is just to have a good holiday!

You know it makes sense.

Whilst I don't like to see TO arrogance, I must say that Les Arcs has much to commend it. Took my younger son there when he was about 12 for his first skiing holiday. We had a fabulous time - and I'd say the terrain suits the party detailed in the OP well.

louloulou, welcome to sHs.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Les Arcs is fine for beginners.

A snowHead

A snowHead

IANAL either, and it may be a bit late but.............................

Trying to prove that one resort is not as acceptable as another may prove to be a problem should you wish this to go further on your return, which is what I'd do. So I'd take any sweeteners they offer, but no money, and enjoy your hol as best you can. I don't know either resort, but judging by other peoples comments they aren't poles apart (pardon the pun), so annoying as it is, put it to the backs of your minds.

Hopefully you already have a "paper trail", and log everything that has been said so far. Log everything also that you spend, over and above, what you would have reasonably spent on the "other" holiday, equipment, passes even cab rides if they can be justified etc etc.

When you get back don't get into an argument with the TO. Present them with your bill, give them a time limit to respond, with the rider that, if you don't get satisfaction, a County Court summons will be presented, blah blah blah.

Most reasonably sized companies will not go to court to defend a smallish sum, say up to £500, so it gives you some leeway. It's just not economical for them to do so.

Lastly, as others have said, enjoy it for what it is, a different resort. Chances are you'll have a cracking time regardless........................

All the best, John.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

eng_ch, Regardless of contract law, the ABTA code of conduct states unequivocally that a change of resort is classed as a "material change".

But the problem with either that or contract law is that all it gives you at this stage is the option ro cancel without penalty. Which leaves you without a holiday.

If you want a holiday, then you have to take what they are offering, but negotiate as hard as possible, on the basis that they don't want to lose out completely and have to refund you.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

alex_heney, precisely, which is why deliberately failing to inform the OP until it was in practice far too late for him to rebook was very sharp practice. Under Swiss law you could do them for that because the law of obligations here works on the principle of good faith - if a party can be shown to have acted not in good faith (as here) then you would probably have another claim against them. In any case, for such a material change in the terms - without consultation - I would be pressing for significant concessions from the TO. By any standards they are bang out of order and have relied on poor practice to prevent the OP cancelling.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

eng_ch, I think there may be redress in UK law against a company which can be shown to have acted in bad faith. Perhaps a sH legal eagle can confirm - or otherwise.

You'll need to Register first of course.

achilles, is that so? That's encouraging

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

An update.

We didn't go.

I promised I would report back as soon as I could, but to be honest the whole thing has been far more upsetting for our whole party than I ever would of imagined before experiencing it.

There were 11 of us over two families. One family was completely adamant that the 'only' place they wanted to go was to return to Courchevel. They had skied there before, knew the place and wanted to return. Their belief was that they had looked for a holiday in Courchevel, bought a holiday in Courchevel and had a contract for that holiday and that it should be honoured.

The other family was not so bothered about location but had two 1st time sking teenagers and a 4 year old and for them it was imperative that they had easy access to ski-school and a choice of cable-cars for taking the 4 year old on. It is really not that easy with a 4 year old non-skier and cable cars are the only really safe and easy lifts for them. Someone mentioned that Les Arcs was great for taking their 12yr old on their first ski-trip.....I agree, it would be.....but a 4 year old? The accommodation offered to us in Les Arcs was 1200m from ski-school. Does taking a 4 year old non-skier 1200m before breakfast seem like a good idea to you?

We spent two whole days on the phone trying to sort this out. The day before our departure, those negotiating (one from each party) were on the phone from 8.30am till past 6.00pm, with a 7 hour drive to get to Gatwick.

It was not until lunchtime on the last day that they would even give us details of the accommodation or where exactly it was (It could of been at B-S-M or Villaroger) just saying it was 'Les Arcs'.

But I was very aware of the 'good' advice of this list to negotiate.....and then GO, even if it was not what we wanted.

By the afternoon we were willing to accept the change of resort, as long as we would not also be out of pocket as well. They were offering what appeared to be a good financial 'sweetener', however when we added up the extra costs for us, it looked very likely that we would still have to pay more.

Our suggestion was simple. We had booked all ski-hire up front online (-35% discount). Arrange for our party to have equivalent equipment hire and pay the balance beyond what we had already agreed to pay with Sport 2000 in Courchevel. Buy us a family ski-pass and pay the difference in cost between Courchevel and Les Arcs.

As long as we did not have to pay extra for the change of resort, we were happy to go.

At past 6 I had a phone call from my wife in tears, to say that after 10 solid hours of negotiation, Neilsons/Fast Track would still not guarantee that we would not have to pay 'more' for the change of holiday. In fact they had not budged at all since the morning.

Half the party wanted to go....and half not.

We considered splitting the party and some going....and some not....but in the end our heart was just not in it.

I would of loved to of gone, Les Arcs would of been fine for me, always enjoyed my skiing there, but it was not right for our group and I felt that we should make a decision for all of us rather than confuse issue by half going and half not.

But on the whole I would agree with the good advice of the group - to go.

I was/am simply amazed by the level of disappointment I view in my family as they sit here at home, knowing they were supposed to be on holiday in Courchevel.

So Onward!!!!

Needless to say, we will be taking this further. Luckily, the recession means that I have plenty of spare time on my hands at the moment.

We have re-opened negotiations with Neilsons through Fast Track. I am researching whether it is best to take it forwards in the courts or through ABTA.

I know some have said that we wouldn't stand a chance in the courts.....

but I find it hard to understand how Neilsons can hide behind a contract that says 'they can change resort' and do so within 48 hrs of departure, when this is in so obvious contradiction to the ABTA Code of Conduct.

I will again report back when I know anything.

cheers

eib

ps All you Les Arcs lovers.....I ain't knocking the place! I have loved skiing there in the past, just wasn't what we wanted.

pps My job for this afternoon is to research Press/TV/Web interest - if you have any ideas, please do post or email me (this forum does allow PMs?) Any pressure we can apply may well be in all our interests

ppps All you lovers of Independent Travel.....I am with you! I have been skiing for over 20 years and in that time I have taken 3 package tours and had a bad experience of it in 2. As of now, I return to being an independent traveller.

After all it is free

ed.bremner, The 7 weeks it took them to realise they were double booked was pants IMHO. Sorry you didn't go. Hope you get your money back.

ed.bremner, best of luck in the fight. I hope (genuinely) you contribute somehow in some small way to putting these shysters out of business. Businesses that treat their customers (who, at a time like this should be considered the most valuable commodity in the world) like dirt have no right to have a business at all.

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ed.bremner, I was looking forward to reading your report on how much you were enjoying your holiday in les Arcs, but then you post this. Absolutely gutted for you and your family and wish you all the best in your fight. And I suppose on behalf of everyone, thanks for the warning !

Help!!

Tour Operator Fiasco

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