 Poster: A snowHead
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Bode Swiller, Bow to your inside knowledge on this. Several sites though quoting him and his brother as co-founders of Neilson's Holidays. Probably confusion/semantics. Anyway he isn't just any oik answering on their behalf.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Libertine, have to say, if I had been in their shoes, I would have ignored this thread and just carried on dealing directly with the customer. Chipping in on a forum merely draws more attention to the issue.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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chrisb,
I think you'll find it is the Russian Xmas on Jan 7th... as they follow the Julian calender still.....
As far as the rest goes... if the OP and Neilsons are talking and have agreed a deal, then that would put this to bed....???
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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JT, Come on, this is snowHeads, and this is only page 4 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Colin B, I think Pip and Pete Tyler founded a sailing holiday company (forget the name) that was bought by Thomas Cook and merged into Neilson. They then took the reins at Neilson. I think these days they are also running the ski programs of First Choice, Airtours and Panorama. That's a lot of peeps to worry about so nobody should be surprised that they have a routine way of dealing with unhappy customers. If you want the kid glove treatment you go to Scott Dunn or the like and pay for it.
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Boredsurfing, you're right! Does Pip suffer from inside ski tip lead? Does he wear a helmet? What's on his laminated ski trip packing check list? Let's have a look at those Neilson Ts&Cs shall we? So many questions, so little time...
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| the first thing the judge wants to see is the contract and they can really only base their judgement on that. |
NB a contract is not the law. The law is the law. The two parties to an exchange must have an equitable and ethical outcome. Most contracts take care to ensure this, but not all do.
It sounds as if Neilson did act within the bounds of what one would require from a TO - even if they didn't go to the lengths that they may have been able to go to. Depends upon the actual negotiations of course.
My opinion of Neilson's has increased in light of this 'fiasco'.
One needs to judge a TO on how well they handle their 0.1% of cock-ups as well as how well they handle their 99.9% of to-plan trips. That said, I'd also be keen to get a decent alternative with as much compensation as I could get in the event of a cock-up - I'd not be a happy bunny.
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As the OP booked through Fast Track and not Neilson, so would the T&C necessarily be the same...?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Michelle, The answer is.... I don't know but someone will. (Where is David Goldsmith when you need him?)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Masque, I sympathise. Neilson's may well have been able to bend over backwards somewhat further. And like you I would wish them to. However, TOs have a reputation of being 'efficient' and 'mercenary', so Neilsons in this case have probably been exemplary (given what little insight we have into actual negotiations, give & take, etc). It's like being 'well treated' by Ryan air in the event of a flight being cancelled, vs Emirates.
Maybe Snowheads could run a continuous satisfaction poll/survey for TOs?
Crystal, Thomson, Inghams, Neilson, etc.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| I think these days they are also running the ski programs of First Choice, Airtours and Panorama. |
First Choice are now part of Tui group,who are direct competitors with the Thomas Cook group (of which Neilson are a part).
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| Quote: |
One needs to judge a TO on how well they handle their 0.1% of cock-ups
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Not really, I don't think they care so much. I'm told that around 3% of package holidays result in a written complaint and then there are those who can't be bothered to complain because they have a life (= much more than 3% probably). Basically, many people aren't 100% satisfied with their ski package but we never get to hear about it. To me it's funny when people say something like "I'll never go with Crystal again" and then go and book with Thomson... same staff, same airline, same owner, same building, same suppliers. TOs are mostly trying to respond to our impossible lofty expectations... low price / high quality. They rely on volume to make any money at all. Most packages lose money but they reap on the high season weeks. Diddums, I don't care about them either but, for your own sake, if your holiday is so important, you have to take care of arrangements yourself. Delegating never really works. Want a job done properly do it yourself.
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You know it makes sense.
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alex_heney, yeah, I got that wrong.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Delegating never really works. Want a job done properly do it yourself. |
Wise words. Ditch the TOs, go DIY!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Oh Gosh.
Sorry guys, I had no idea at all there had been this much traffic on this thread.
It is my little daughters birthday tomorrow and I was out in town buying extra pressies (No belt-sanders ) and only just got back to the computer.
It has all got so heated, that was never my intention. I was just after some advice - I didn't want to complain on this Forum. When I started the thread, I thought I was going on holiday, I had no idea this was going to happen. I am completely flumoxed that the thread is getting so much attention (On and off-forum).
I can only thank all of you for taking the time to empathise with me and my group.
But I will, if I might, give a few quick thoughts to some of the points that have been raised.
First a BIG thanks to Pip Tyler for pitching in on behalf of Neilsons. It is good to hear from you, Welcome - I really appreciate it.
I might also point out that it is the first we have heard anything from Neilsons. Despite asking Fast Track repeatedly, despite emailing Neilsons Admin and Neilsons customer care, we have had NO answer and NO communication from anyone at all at Neilsons. If it was a genuine mistake, a personal and sympathetic phone call would of made all the difference to us at the time (and now!). We desperately wanted to talk to Neilsons, but were completely stonewalled by Fast Track. Hell.....we would still like to talk to them!
PipT stated that a Forum was not the best place to discuss these kind of complaints....and that they were private between us, Neilsons and Fast Track. I have no problem with that; it was never my intention to try and negotiate with Neilsons in public. But if PipT wanted to say that, why didn't he just call one of us....or email one of us...or pm me in private, rather than opening up a sole communication point in total public.
As PipT says, there are always two sides to a story, and god knows, I would like to give more of mine....but it may well be best for me to keep pretty quite now, as we are currently waiting to hear back from the letter that we have sent Neilsons; Fast Track says this will take 28 days, but maybe now that we are old mates, sharing this wonderful forum, it will be a little quicker.
The big eye-opener for me has been simply the great gulf between the Neilson 'rules' as explained by PipT and the ABTA Code of Conduct as I read it.
No-one seems to be able to shed any light on that one for me! Everyone just says "Oh, that is standard industry practice..." But does that make it right? Why have the ABTA Code of Conduct if no-one bothers to stick to it?
I think that is my bit for the moment....
I would only like to say thanks again to all the support and empathy I have received from the vast majority of the forum. I do detect a small amount of hostility from some and to those - I say sorry! I have really tried to be fair, open and honest, I have not mouthed off at anyone or slandered anyone, but if you feel that I have been out of order, I am sorry.
I would also like to say thanks to the moderators. In another field I also moderate a phpBB forum and am very aware of the thought, care and work that goes on behind the scenes to keep it all running. Thanks for letting the thread run. I know it may be (or could of been) uncomfortable for you, but I do really believe in the worth of this totally open and public discussion - and am glad that Neilsons do too.
Finally
A good bit of news!
It looks like Sport2000 in Courchevel are happy to return the deposit on our ski-hire even though we were no-shows. Now that I admire. Can you guess who I am going to hire from again? -35% savings for repeat bookings online....friendly helpful staff. Five Star!!!
I just have this silly dream:
The telephone rings: It is someone from Neilsons. They take a few mins to actually say they are sorry...and sound like they mean it.
<Neilsons> "Ed, what do you guys need to feel that Neilsons did their best?"
<Ed> "Oh, just a holiday like we promised the kids....in [gulp] Courchevel.....please"
<Neilsons> "Of course, when would suite you?"
<Ed> "Well can't get any more of January off....so... Early Feb would be best"
<Neilsons> "No problem"
<Ed> [suspiciously] "How much will that be then?"
<Neilsons> "Oh, just what we agreed for the holiday in the first place"
<Ed> "Cor, really?"
<Neilsons> "Yes, of course, our clients are important to us"
Then I come back and finish this rather long thread by simply telling all the SnowHeads that in the end Neilsons came up trumps.
I would love that and they could just do it.....if they wanted.
I will post again if and when I have any news.
cheers
eib
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| Or worse... ("Pip" doesn't exist nor does he represent Nelson, etc.) |
abc, now that's just a bit too paranoid. I think we can trust PipT to be who he says he is 
| ed.bremner wrote: |
| I also moderate a phpBB forum and am very aware of the thought, care and work that goes on behind the scenes to keep it all running. Thanks for letting the thread run. I know it may be (or could of been) uncomfortable for you, but I do really believe in the worth of this totally open and public discussion - and am glad that Neilsons do too. |
Thank you, I'm glad you realise that there is often more to keeping a forum healthy than 'letting it happen'; not everyone does. I have actually been keeping an eye on this topic since quite early on.
I too would have found it hard to accept an alternative had I been expecting to go to Courchevel 1850 - with some resorts and some trips it's more than practicality. In fact I took a group to 1850 a couple of years ago. The actual reasons for choosing 1850 frankly sound too petty and superficial to even voice here but in the end, it simply mattered that that was where we went on that occasion. We even chose to stay in a relatively rubbish hotel and as hotel quality was irrelevant to our decision, had we received an upgrade even to a 5* hotel, it still would not have met our needs had it been anywhere other than 1850 so I can sympathise with your disappointment.
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I might also point out that it is the first we have heard anything from Neilsons. Despite asking Fast Track repeatedly, despite emailing Neilsons Admin and Neilsons customer care, we have had NO answer and NO communication from anyone at all at Neilsons.
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I think a relevant point here that has not been mentioned is the relationship between the Travel Agent and the Tour Op. Because you booked through Fast Track, it's most likely that Neilson are prohibited from dealing with you directly before the start of your holiday. This is quite commonplace and would likely have been the same had you booked though Iglu or Alpine Answers or any other agent. In theory it protects the Agent from putting in all the legwork to find the punter and then being cut out of the deal by the TO at the last hurdle. But, it also serves as a clear demarcation so that consecutive parties in the chain don't step on each others toes.
It would seem that in this case though, it has simply served to frustrate you.
Finally, to those who have criticised PipT for addressing this issue here: quite simply, you are wrong (IMHO  )
snowHeads is not a knocking shop for grumpy ol' buggers to sit and whinge about how bad 'it all' is.
I regularly have to field concerned/assertive/angry approaches by companies who have been criticised here. If they just turned up and dealt with these things head on, in an open and honest way as PipT has now, my life would be a lot easier. As it is, I work very hard to maintain snowHeads as a place which can support issues such as ed.bremner's being raised, considered and discussed to produce (hopefully) truly helpful advice rather than a cyber-lynch mob out to string up the absent party. When the 'other side' turns up to explain/discuss/ address the issue, let's treat them with a little respect and take them at face value eh?
ed.bremner, Welcome to snowHeads 
PipT, Welcome to snowHeads
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hi Abc and others,
can't stay long as getting children ready for school.
But to be accurate. We have been verbally promised a refund.
This was originally offered at lunchtime on the 2nd day of negotiations, but not confirmed till yesterday.
I have seen an email from Neilsens (again only at a later stage) that was quite clear that Neilsens offered the money back from immediately that they knew about this (albeit 72 hrs before departure) and thanks to them for offering that.
The problem was that there was no other choice or any negotiation or compromise, it was simply a case of take the alternative holiday....or have your money back.
We just felt that we still wanted a holiday.....but that it should be comparable (especially for the 5 year old - today) and that we should not have to pay more for it.
must dash
cheers
eib
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 7-01-09 11:29; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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JT, Sorry not up on my Julian calandar, I stand corrected
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| Libertine wrote: |
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Finally, to those who have criticised PipT for addressing this issue here: quite simply, you are wrong (IMHO )
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I do not think it is professional and the additional posts by pipT were as the she was just any other user which is fine for that purpose, but if I was Neilsons, i would be having strong words representing Neilsons in such a manner that I do not think is appropriate. Also, Neilsons should not be discussing individual circumstances of a customer on a chat forum IMHO
I think we all agree that we hope ed gets on the snow soon. |
The "she" is a "he" by the way. Coping with forum flack is a new discipline for corporates. They either have to decide to ignore it, concentrate on satisfying the complainer and then hope that the complainer then posts up his/her satisfactory outcome. Or, as in this case, decide that it is time to put the company's side of the story which might be appropriate as the OP had decided to go public and name and shame. On balance I would have opted for the first option but, nevertheless, I think Neilson have come out of this looking OK... not great but OK. At least they appear approachable and are publically saying that they want to sort this out. Seems to me that the travel agent has got in the way. They "own the customer" and have probably retained vital info such as customer's contact details. It could be that they've been concentrating more on rescuing their commission (which might have been sizeable) rather than listening to the customer.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ed.bremner wrote: |
| We just felt that we still wanted a holiday.....but that it should be comparable (especially for the 5 year old - today) and that we should not have to pay more for it. |
The alternative package should cost no more, i.e. travel/transfer/accom/catering than the original package you booked. However, I'm not too surprised they wouldn't bear the consequential costs of losing ski hire deposit, or higher lift pass prices in the alternative - certainly not providing a guarantee that overall costs wouldn't be greater.
There's nothing stopping you asking for compensation, and it's great if you get it, but it's not too surprising Fast Track/Neilson's insisted on limiting the cost of the alternative to the original package rather than your eventual costs.
Don't get me wrong. You have a clear grievance given short notice of a resort change, and I'd be pretty upset myself. Even so, I'm not sure I would have pressed the red button and gone for the cancel holiday+refund option. :-\
I also think you're absolutely right to bring this matter to a forum for public consideration, and it's quite right and commendable for Fast Track and/or Neilson's to respond/join in the discussion.
What remains is what policy Neilsons and their agents have (and should have) for such situations, and whether they adhered to it in your case.
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| Libertine wrote: |
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Finally, to those who have criticised PipT for addressing this issue here: quite simply, you are wrong (IMHO )
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I do not think it is professional
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Why not? I haven't seen anything written by him which is in itslef particularly "unprofessional", and I certainly see no reason why it is "unprofessional" to respond in a forum to posts about your company.
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and the additional posts by pipT were as the she was just any other user which is fine for that purpose, but if I was Neilsons, i would be having strong words representing Neilsons in such a manner that I do not think is appropriate.
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As has already been pointed out, he is high enough in the Neilon organisation that there is unlikley to be anybody in a position to "have strong words" 
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Also, Neilsons should not be discussing individual circumstances of a customer on a chat forum IMHO
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The customer brought it up first, and named Neilsons. They ahve a right to respond, and IMO have done so quite well, and very reasonably.
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I think we all agree that we hope ed gets on the snow soon. |
True.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I agree entirely with PipT joining this discussion on behalf of Neilson's - I don't think he has gone too far into the specific's of Ed's case to make it a supplier vs client public battle - all he has done is to put balance to the situation which wasn't really there before he [pip]ed in. If the intention was to rescue some credibility for his company then that has been done, Neilsons stock has increased in the last 24 hrs IMHO - and the fact they have a Snowhead amongst their ranks can only help fellow SH's if/when further problems arise - stay around PipT !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| admin wrote: |
| snowHeads is not a knocking shop for grumpy ol' buggers to sit and whinge about how bad 'it all' is. |
Can I have my money back please?
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Well, i'm sure you will all be arranging your netx trips through Neilsons then!!
I remain of the opinion that the responses are not what i would expect from a professional company.... 
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You know it makes sense.
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red 27, lol
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Seems to me that the travel agent has got in the way. They "own the customer" and have probably retained vital info such as customer's contact details. It could be that they've been concentrating more on rescuing their commission (which might have been sizeable) rather than listening to the customer. |
I think the travel agent deserves at least as much flak as Neilsen.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Arno wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Seems to me that the travel agent has got in the way. They "own the customer" and have probably retained vital info such as customer's contact details. It could be that they've been concentrating more on rescuing their commission (which might have been sizeable) rather than listening to the customer. |
I think the travel agent deserves at least as much flak as Neilsen. |
Maybe in this case there are 3 sides to a story. From what I've read from 2 of the sides, the middle man leaves a lot to be desired.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Arno wrote: |
| I think the travel agent deserves at least as much flak as Neilsen. |
More flak, if they were negligent, or an impediment to a timely resolution of the issue.
Will Fast Track now join this thread?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Will Fast Track now join this thread?
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... in a professional manner ! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just want to point out here, that I have not accused anyone of being negligent.
I am not a Lawyer and I would not dream of saying that unless I had talked to a Lawyer....and I still sincerely hope I won't have to do that.
For what it is worth....I would of thought the real villain of the piece is the original supplier in France who made the mistake and who told Neilsons of the problem at such short notice. It couldn't of been fun for staff at Neilson's to get that phone call.....or for that matter for Fast Track to have to deal with such a hard situation in such a pressurised time-scale.
I think they could of both done better, but in a way, that may all be water under the bridge now.
I originally posted simply because I did not understand (then) how there could be such a difference between a TO's 'Terms of Business Agreement' and the ABTA Code of Conduct.
Anyway, must get some work done this week if I am ever going to find time to go skiing later this season.
cheers
eib
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ed.bremner wrote: |
| For what it is worth....I would of thought the real villain of the piece is the original supplier in France who made the mistake and who told Neilsons of the problem at such short notice. |
Hmmm... call me cynical but the nameless supplier is bound to be the whipping boy here. It could be that Neilson were aware ages ago but decided not to tell you assuming that they'd get something sorted before the off.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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ed.bremner, have you contacted the accommodation supplier to get their side? I bet you it's Pierre et Vacances becuase they seem to own everything in France and supply all the major TOs. They are also based in Brighton (like Neilson). Worth a punt.
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ed.bremner, Another set of dreams destroyed ... hopefully your latest dream of the February holiday will be fulfilled. I suspect/hope that Neilson will feel that is the minimum they should now do.
It's been said here before but Im afraid complaining to ABTA will achieve nothing. They are a Trade Association. The only thing that ever made me jump higher then 'normal' was the word 'Watchdog'. Im afraid our industry generally still has low standards of customer service and we have hidden behind our Ts & Cs too often whilst still trotting out adages about being ' Purveyors of Dreams' etc.
Good on PipT for replying, but as Bode Swiller suggests the net has become so powerful you ignore it your own risk! Reading between the lines ( and its none of my business) I suspect Neilson are unhappy with both what happened in resort/their offices and the Service Recovery actions to date.
To pick up on an earlier theme, there is no need for this 'accidental overbooking' in our technological age -- and Id be very wary of any company still using systems, processes, suppliers or accommodation that enabled such errors.
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| Quote: |
The only thing that ever made me jump higher then 'normal' was the word 'Watchdog'
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Watchdog is a well over-used threat by complainers that no longer cuts any ice. I know one of the production staff. You have got to be seriously bad with a capital B to get aired. They are not at all interested in companies that either get few complaints or who might get lots of complaints (typical in the travel industry) but who swiftly sort them out and are generally trying to be be honest brokers. "Tour operator gets complaint but sorts it out" is not a story.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bode Swiller, Sorry but it does still 'cut ice' ime .. you cant just threaten of course you have to get some 'interest' from the researchers .. and they do still follow-up on travel companies ( or is it just me  )
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Agenterre, Yes they do quite a bit of travel stuff. It's a good topic that affects most of the viewers. But it's normally health & safety issues like mass food poisoning in Dominican Republic or faulty gas appliances or dangerous swimming pools etc etc. Thomas Cook (who own Neilson) are pretty squeaky clean compared to many (as PipT explained). Researchers' interest is normally triggered when the file of complaints on a particular company exceeds a certain amount. Companies who diligently sort out complaints don't get aired.
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FAQ
