 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| You seem to be taking the view that because not every single collision can be avoided we shouldn't bother with trying to minimise the risks, just carry on with little regard for the safety of people around us. That's not a view I agree with. I know full well that it's impossible to completely avoid collisions, but there's a lot that could be done to reduce their frequency and severity if some fairly common sense measures are adopted by all skiers & boarders. |
when I ever said that ? can you quote me please 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| rob@rar, when on a cat track their blind spot can make for a dangerous situation. |
Yes, but can't the same be said for skiing behind skiers? You are skiing directly behind them, in their blind spot and you have an option to pass them on their left or right, and they have the option to suddenly swerve left or right. Same potential for collision as when in a boarder's blind spot? |
No, because when on the heel edge, boarders turn directly into their blind spot, as they're travelling at 90 degrees to it, rather than it being right behind them as on a skier.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| when I ever said that ? can you quote me please |
As you said, you've been playing devil's advocate. Now to me that reads as if you don't agree with those people who have been saying that as a general principal the uphill skier has the responsibility to avoid colliding with the skier below him. Of course there will be a small number of what ifs, quirky situations and the like, but compared to the day to day generality of skiing around the pistes these are insignificant IMO. I've been trying to discuss the general principal, not nit pick the inconsequential.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| No, because when on the heel edge, boarders turn directly into their blind spot, as they're travelling at 90 degrees to it, rather than it being right behind them as on a skier. |
It's not unusual for skiers, especially novices to suddenly turn close to 90 degrees. As I said, I don't have an issue with accepting boarders have blind spots, and that they are different to skiers' blind spots. I was simply questioning what I thought was an inference that skiers don't have blind spots. I'd feel much happier on some slopes if I did have have eyes in the back of my head, but alas I don't so I have to use my other senses to try to figure out what is going on immediately behind me...
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rob@rar, I think there are quite a few instances whereby a reasonable course of action by the up hill skier is not enough to avoid collisions, Scarpa and FtS have given examples whereby they were in the wrong but had the person with whom the had a bump simply followed a reasonable route then no accident would have happened,
I suppose what annoys me a bit is this 'if you are up-slope' it is your fault - no matter what the circumstances are, and it is examples of which that i have been exploring.
As a boarder (and as Kramer rightly points out above re blind spots) if I turn in to the path of a skier/boarder because I can not see them in my blind spot, I take responsibility for that, whether or not the skier/boarder is up-slope of me, or whether the rules say something different.
edit - likewise if i wipe out and sprawl right in front of someone behind me on a narrow track - my fault not theirs imv
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 30-12-08 17:49; edited 3 times in total
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| It's not unusual for skiers, especially novices to suddenly turn close to 90 degrees. |
Novices would generally have to turn 180 degrees to go directly into their blind spots though. The problem with novices is more that they're so intent on not falling over, or off the big cliff that they imagine is over the edge, they have very little spare capacity to be aware of what is happening around them, and that's why they need a wide berth.
The other problem for novices is that when an experienced skier comes to overtake them, if they're moving quite erratically, the safest thing for the experienced skier to do is to overtake them at speed. The less time that you're in the same space as the novice, the less likely you are to collide. Of course this does nothing for the novice's concentration at the time.
Having done both disciplines (boarding and skiing), the blind spot is much more of an issue when you're a boarder, as is the lack of ability to stop in snowplough type fashion, ie in a straight line without turning.
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I was wiped out by a falling skier above Zurs. I dont blame the other skier it is a result of bad piste deisgn. There is an alternate cat track to the icy black that curves to the left. If you fall on the black you will crash on to the cat track and possibly then go over the edge which was marked with posts and tape. The guy fell on the black & crashed into me on the track below with his skis taking out my boots like skittles. I was not hurt & probably saved him from going over the edge to a nasty fall. How could I blame him, we all fall sometimes. A padded crash barier should be in place as the mishap must be repeated frequently.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
....
I suppose what annoys me a bit is this 'if you are up-slope' it is your fault - no matter what the circumstances are, .... |
A few years ago, a guy skiing at (what was to me) a huge speed cut me up and immediately caught the proverbial edge right in front of me and more or less exploded i.e. skis, poles, hat, goggles, body all going in different directions. I managed to stop without hitting him, mainly because he had travelled so far after his fall.
Even though I was by now the uphill skier, I would not have accepted that I was at fault if I had hit him. It is unreasonable to anticipate that these unseen (and "un-see-able") human Exocets will detonate right in front of you. In any event, I helped him pick up the bits of his gear. He sheepishly apologised, thanked me and went off on his way (still pretty fast).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This is a ridiculous topic. As if you would willingly hit another skier.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Timmaah wrote: |
| This is a ridiculous topic. As if you would willingly hit another skier. |
No I usually clash with the snowboarders 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Timmaah wrote: |
| This is a ridiculous topic. As if you would willingly hit another skier. |
I've seen it many times; usually started over a dispute concerning beer, women or both.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Timmaah wrote: |
| This is a ridiculous topic. As if you would willingly hit another skier. |
Don't think I've seen anyone willingly hit another skier on the slopes. But I've seen more than a few stupidly hit other slope users. Are you OK with collisions just because they aren't done willingly?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
| skimottaret, I think you are right, but there are occasions when people fall on steeper slopes and cannot stop which although technically may be their 'fault' I would classify it as an accident. |
If they are skiing slowly enough and it's not too steep they should come to a stop without hitting anyone. If the slope is so steep that they would slide uncontrollably you should make sure that you don't ski directly above other skiers, or at least give them sufficient distance so they can get out of your way as you hurtle down the slope. |
Counsel of perfection, but it's not always possible. On the other thread, I described my fall on the Tunnel. The whole mountainside was heaving with people, quite a lot of whom were perched on moguls frozen with terror (that's the people - the moguls were frozen solid too). There was no room to do anything at all, there were lots of people above me waiting to go and it was late in the afternoon. There was nothing to do except gingerly to attempt a turn. And there was nowhere to bail out altogether. Arguably I shouldn't have been on that slope at all, but I think I would have been OK in decent conditions - by the time I got there, it was too late to realise the conditions were poor. It was unfortunate that I blew my first turn, totally unable to hold my edges on the ice (letting my skis run was not an option with the crowds on the slope) but I would contend that converting myself into an unguided missile was unfortunate, but not negligent. Btw, as mentioned on the other thread, no collision actually took place, but that was sheer luck.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hurtle, I think your example is a good one. Yes it was busy, and yes it was steep, icy and bumpy. You fell - certainly no crime in that, everyone falls at some point - and by luck hit nobody. But what would have happened if you had started off following a skier directly in front on you, just a couple of skis lengths apart and managed to hang on to the fall line for three or fours bumps before blowing out at speed? You might well have clattered into him hard, with potentially unfortunate consequences. As it was I don't see any problem with what actually happened - skiing is risky from time to time, and people will always fall on steep slopes. But if your accident had been along the lines of what I described as the alternative I would say there was a lot wrong with the choices you made and it wasn't "bad luck" but poor decision making that was the root cause.
All I'm arguing for is that skiers and boarders take some responsibility for their potential to hurt other slope users. It might be speed, it might be line, it might be being patient for 20 seconds before starting a run. It's not going to curtail their fun, but might help reduce unnecessary collisions and injuries.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, thanks! Yes, I did indeed try to turn slowly into the biggest space I could see! Ugh, what a nightmare. I realised when in the 3V last season that that experience did, in fact, spoil my appetite for challenging runs which had not bothered me before. Stupid, really, since I didn't actually hurt myself or anyone else.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, there's a really nice black piste here which I'm sure you'll have fun on, "Rouelles". Steep, but not intimidating, wide with some great off-piste either side through the trees and bushes. It's always quiet. Sometimes bumpy, sometimes pisted. It's a lovely run, and a great confidence builder for steeper terrain.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, noted. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| rayscoops wrote: |
| so that would mean on most steep blacks that we would all have to go down 'one by one' in case we fall and can not stop sliding |
Are you talking about a wide black piste, or a narrow couloir? There is plenty of width in the majority of black pistes for any number of people to go at the same time. I'm not suggesting that you wait until people clear the bottom of the piste before you start your run, just leave enough room (20-30m?) so that if you do miss a turn and fall you will either be able to stop before hitting someone or they will have time to scoot out of the way as you slide past them.
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IF they see you coming (OK you'll probably be yelling for all your worth, so they should), and IF they don't freeze in panic, etc.
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Would you want someone a ski's length behind you on a steep, icy black? I know I wouldn't, so feel it's only fair not to inflict that potential for disaster on someone else. |
But then nobody but you has suggested that possibility.
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alex_heney, 
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[quote="rob@rar"]
| rayscoops wrote: |
| As a boarder if I catch an edge and fall in the path of an 'up slope' skier - who is at fault |
The up slope skier is.
It is not that simple (see below).
| Quote: |
The example you quote of drivers deliberately trying to cause a crash only succeeds if the driver behind does not leave enough stopping space for the speed they are traveling at. I do my best to ensure when skiing I leave either enough stopping space or "change of direction" space for people below me. Sometimes this means giving them a wide berth (very wide in the case of boarders ) and sometimes it means slowing down. |
The situation he quoted was one which does happen occasionally, whereby somebody will overtake you, then pull in immediately they are past, aand slam on the brakes. They never gave you the chance to establish a "safe gap". The occasions I have read abuot this happening have usually been an insurance scam.
But a similar situation could happen in skiing, where somebody has just overtaken you, or is doing so while cutting across your path, then has a sudden fall. In such a situation, the up-hill skier really may have no chance of avoiding a collision, and through no fault of their own.
That is one of the very rare situations which I would say are more a result of bad luck than anything else.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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How about when an alien spacecraft beams you aboard whist you are happily carving along and then after the appropriate time dilation beams you straight back onto the piste into the path of an uphill skier? Who would be at fault and would the aliens pay out in the resulting lawsuit?
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Scarpa, not in France, the alien beer is too expensive
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bur seriously on a crowded piste or the last run home (Lindarets in Avoriaz/Morzine or St Anton for example) it is like wacky races and no mater how much space you give other skiers around or infront of you some idiot will fill that space by cutting in front of you and as the up-slope skier surely it is not your fault if they stack it and you plough in to them, and this happens every day of the season to some extent
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| Somehow I manged to jump out of my skis and landed 10 ft the other side of the rather shocked father and son. |
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| Quote: |
| A skier who was just in front of me but on the right edge suddenly put in a 90 degree left turn straight accross the piste, hard and fast, and directly into my path |
That happened to me and resulted in possibly my most violent crash on skis..
That was mainly my fault I would say. There was this smooth and steep narrow run and I once decided to not stop at the top and pick up as much spped as possible... Arrived at the top of said passage (about 20m wide), looked down and there was only one lady completely to the right..So I schussed down the left hand side without stopping...loads of speed straight away... and just before I went pas her, she got scared by her own speed and suddenly turned left toward my line.
I had a lot of speed but spotted her move, turned hard right to avoid her...and one of my ski caught and I (as well as my skis/poles/gogles..) went flying all over the place...nowhere near her but i saw stars..
If I had hit her it would have been my fault despite her sudden move...
I learned my lesson....
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You know it makes sense.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| Bur seriously on a crowded piste or the last run home (Lindarets in Avoriaz/Morzine or St Anton for example) it is like wacky races and no mater how much space you give other skiers around or infront of you some idiot will fill that space by cutting in front of you and as the up-slope skier surely it is not your fault if they stack it and you plough in to them, and this happens every day of the season to some extent |
Yes, it's impossible to avoid very busy pistes, especially home runs. When that happens to me I slow down, which (a) gives me a bit more time to take avoiding action if idiotic/unpredictable things happen in front of me, and (b) if a collision does happen at least it will be at slow speed reducing the risk of injury. I don't think that a busy piste absolves the uphill skier of responsibility if they collide into someone.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, I think that all the way through the thread, you are dealing with "ideals". Just looking at your quote above, you talk about what you would do. However, you need to accept that the average skier does not have your ability level. They may try to slow down, but in doing that, they would need to turn...possibly into another skier.
What concerns me most about reading this thread, is the continued lack of awareness about boarders blind spots. Everyone on here who has done both, says that boarders have a big issue, yet skiers who have not boarded think they know better. Once again, I propose that no one be alowed off the nursery slope until they have spent 3 days on skis and 3 days on a board
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| rob@rar, I think that all the way through the thread, you are dealing with "ideals". Just looking at your quote above, you talk about what you would do. However, you need to accept that the average skier does not have your ability level. They may try to slow down, but in doing that, they would need to turn...possibly into another skier. |
Yes, that's a fair point about relative ability levels. But what concerns me is that a number of people seem to take the view that "accidents happen" and there is little need to try to work towards "ideals". I'm not naive enough to think that collisions can be entirely avoided, but the sooner that the majority of people accept that the uphill skier* has the responsibility to avoid the downhill skier (with very few exceptions) then the sooner the number and/or severity of accidents will diminish. My ire is reserved for a small number of skiers whose disregard for the safety of other people around them is breath-taking, not for the vast majority of people who are getting on with enjoying themselves and take due care of their line and speed. I'm sure that the majority could do more in terms of occasionally taking a slightly more cautious line or speed, and I definitely include myself in this group, but by and large it isn't skiers in this majority who end up killing people.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
until they have spent 3 days on skis and 3 days on a board
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and that is about par for the course in terms of instruction these days... and sorry to say but IMV boarders tend to stop formal tuition much earlier than skiers and from what i see cause more accidents, not cause they are boarders, but because of a lack of training and control.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, there are perhaps a few reasons why boarders stop formal tuition earlier than skiers and i would suggest it is more to do with technology of boards and boarding in comparison with skis and poles and boots and skiing. I am amazed by the lengths skiers go to with respect to 'fine tuning' technique (inner tip lead? A frames? parallel skis or not? long skis, shorth skis fat skis, skinny skis ? - BZK never ceases to amaze me and seems to take the fun out of what for most is a recreational activity) which perhaps does not translate in to the world of boarding.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rayscoops, agree with all that but my point was the lack of training has safety implications.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| BZK never ceases to amaze me and seems to take the fun out of what for most is a recreational activity |
I think you're confusing what happens on a forum with what happens up a mountain. I've had more lessons that most people in the last couple of seasons and they have included some of my most enjoyable, most fun time on skis. Learning doesn't need to be, and indeed shouldn't be, dull. Avoiding lessons because "you're on holiday and want to enjoy it" is a pretty poor excuse in my opinion.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, I must admit that what I read at times on  has put me off learning to ski - it just seems so anal-ytical  but i will try to remember that it is simply a good fun thing to do, and keep it quiet, but I may have a bash later in the season
| skimottaret wrote: |
| rayscoops, agree with all that but my point was the lack of training has safety implications. |
the lack of training at an early stage in boarding has safety implications becasue it is easier to fall when learning boarding than when learning skiing (or so I am led to believe), but after 10 weeks of boarding, say, I would not consider training as crucial for boarding as it is for skiing, and as an extension to this I do not agree that lack of on going training for a boarder after one, two, three, five years contributes to a safety risk.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| rob@rar, I must admit that what I read at times on has put me off learning to ski |
Some of it puts me off as well! But ski lessons on the hill are nothing like that that, even if you like a large technical input from your instructor.
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rayscoops, depends if the 10 week boarder is mainly self taught. In group or individual lessons you pick up a lot of the safety related do's and dont's from the instrucotr that you wouldnt if you were just out with mates. BASI's mantra is SEL :- Safety, Enjoyment, and, Learning in that order.....
lots of the BZK stuff is trying to understand and debate the fine points of how skiing works and that level of detail wouldnt be talked about on the hill.. I would shoot myself if i got into that level of geekery on a mountain but having a good grasp of the detail allows me to confidently explain things in simple terms while not hopefully not talking complete b*llucks to students.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, Snowboarders cause more accidents?!!!
There is a throw away statement that needs to be backed up!.
stats?
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FAQ
