Help determine the future of the SCGB (non-members' soapbox)

A snowHead

If you've got constructive ideas for the future of the Ski Club of GB, and are reluctant to join it as things stand, then please fire away. Anything posted here will be of great interest to those planning the future of the Club.

What would you want to pay? What would you like to get for that subscription price?

A snowHead

I have browsed the SCGB site on several occasions over the years. But as an ex-pat I couldn't see any real advantage in joining, certainly not at the same rate as those who, living in the UK, are able to benefit from all the discounts on holidays/insurance etc. Might there be an argument for differentiated rates allowing oversees members to join more cheaply? Have I missed any benefits that might be applicable to those Brits already living on the slopes? Just to go skiing with one of the resort reps, or participating in the forum, doesn't really encourage me to join at the same rate as the UK residents. There's a fair few of us out in the Alps/Canada/US etc who might be encouraged to join such a 'community' as a result...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

David, this is what should have been asked of all of us non members when we joined the forum discussions! But the "powers that be" just didn't seem to be interested then, and I, for one, think it is a bit late now.

After the way they closed the open forum, not to mention all the other views from members of the way they were not consulted, or informed of meetings, minutes etc, I really don't want to join under any circumstances.

Funnily enough, I was intending to join this year on my holiday. But not now. Too little, too late.

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To be honest, the only part of it I might be tempted to use would be the ski repping (and the forum and hence the collective knowledge of members). Discounts probably wouldn't be useful since I book a lot of stuff DIY, although discounts on buying new equipment would be handy (although quite often I find the places offering discounts tend to be more expensive than the cheapest vendor anyway).

For just being a member (without discounts etc.), I'd be willing to pay some nominal annual fee (say £10) which would allow me to vote & use the forum. On top of that, I'd be happy to pay for repping as I use it - as long as it wasn't extortionate. The current membership package could be seen as a "gold" package or such like (discounts, unlimited free repping, etc. all included)

Since I live in Scotland, I doubt I'd be popping down to the clubhouse much, either!!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I've been a member for over four years and in that time I've never once used a rep, or a discount provided by the club. Except maybe once at rossendale.
I did use the forum regularly and I do read ski & board magazine...
I would be in favour of a reduced premium. Silver membership if you like.
Oh and i also have a skiclub credit card. But that will go as soon as the six month interest free period is up. Wink

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David,
As you know from our personal discussions about the "discounts" and how it works for the shops, that is a major issue with me.
In the past, I used the site for resort information, including the historical snow data. I didn't find the site particularly easy to navigate (it looks like it was designed by committee), but once I found what I was looking for, (if I had access) it was useful.
But if access to that sort of information was chargeable, then I'd look elsewhere, including "Where to Ski & Snowboard"

Hope you find this useful

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

My 2 pence worth.
I originally thought the Skiclub existed to promote skiing as a fun sport to do by a) providing resort and weather info and b) encouraging participation.
On finding the website - there's lots of useful info on resorts/snowreports/articles but in reality I found out that the Skiclub is an 'exclusive' club - which offers discounts, holidays and rep service, but not one that I felt I wanted to join - price too high. The name is in its title - so I shouldn't have been that surprised that it acts like a closed club!
I guess its got a high profile image because of its history, and placing its snow reports in a wide range of places on the internet and in print. I thought that because of this profile it would be an organisation that worked to improve, develop and nurture snowsports in the UK. By this I mean getting people interested in the sport, supporting schools to take kids to a dry ski slope, campaigning on behalf of UK holidaymakers, promoting safety issues.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem that this is the raison d'etre for the club - which is a shame, because its got a strong enough brand name to do these worthy activities. Instead it seems to be going down the route of becoming more insular, which doesn't sit well with the fact that this sport is doing the exact opposite. More people are having a go at a snowsport - of which I think snowboarding has done a lot to get people enthused. Seems mad that the skiclub doesn't recognise this and want to welcome all these new enthusiasts unless they've got £50 to spare...

After all it is free

Absolutely, MM. And for these and many other worthy reasons, we need a groundswell of support to try and bring about a change in direction and emphasis. Without that willingness and support, there will likely never be the sort of "club" that embraces all the things you and many others hold dear.

mountain mad, Well said, any organisation with a degree of clout and some resources in the winter sports field should imo be doing as much as possible to encourage the development of the sport. We all know just how cash-strapped GB SnowSports are, and how skiing as a competitive sport is restricted to those with money, and lots of it. As a member of the DHO I have been on race camps in Austria with UK-based parents and it's clear just how exclusive this side of the sport is. I live in the Alps so it affects me less, but other parents were telling me that they have to shell out £10,000 pa per child on training, equipment, and on several race and training camps abroad each year. I can well believe it. It's a fact that if they don't, their kids haven't got a snowball's chance in hell of making it at the top level.

Even if the SCGB is a not-for-profit organisation, the impression I get from the website is of a glorified tour operator. It appears to be an altruistic business operating, ostensibly, solely for the good of its members. But as we all know, many 'charitable' set ups have been hauled before the authorities when the internal costs/income ratio reaches an unacceptable level. I am not saying that this is the case for the SCGB, but I would be interested in the figures.

Let's see some concrete evidence of support from the SCGB for budding Olympic champions!

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

PG

You said

Let's see some concrete evidence of support from the SCGB for budding Olympic champions!

To be fair to the SCGB, as recently as last week they did actively promote on their web site, and sold tickets for an auction at Christie' to raise money for the British Ski & snow board team

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It seems to me that if the Ski Club attempts to compete directly with commercial organisations, it's doomed to failure. Any service that's available in the marketplace can almost certainly be provided more cheaply and to a higher standard by a company with hungry shareholders demanding financial returns. Also, if a product's already in the marketplace, why invent a club to provide the same thing?

Similarly, I don't believe that member discounts are achievable in the long term. Retailers only offer these because thay believe that it's a cheap way of buying custom, but price sensitive customers will always find the bargains they need, anyway. Many others have noted that discounts tend not to be available in the cheapest stores on on special offers.

I'm afraid that I've just dissed a huge proportion of the Clubs activities; perhaps that's why I'm not a member. But what can it do? The answer has to lie in things that commercial organisations find hard to do, either because they're not profitable or because they need a completely independent mind. Two broad categories spring to mind: information and opportunities to meet new people.

Interestingly, the much-criticised reps programme offers both of these facilities. Unfortunately, it's also horribly expensive to maintain and surely needs to be run on more commercial lines, probably by charging for its use and closely monitoring uneconomic placements.

The thing I'd be prepared to pay for is unbiased information - not the unstructured kind of chat we get in this forum, although I value it highly, but a serious pooling of knowledge in a systematic fashion, much as Which? magazine offers to members of the Consumer's Association. Here are some thoughts as to how it might be delivered:

- An independent holiday planning service, possibly provided by the reps through web chat / telephone to members still in the UK who are planning their holiday. Some information is essential for holiday planning but really difficult to get hold of unless you know a resort well - how long does it really take to get from the hotel to the ski school? does one of the ski schools have a stronger programme for adventurous intermediates? is the hire shop offering a cheap internet deal actually run by cowboys? what's the best way to arrange an airport transfer? what are snow conditions really like this week?

- Properly collated results of structured questionnaires completed by returning club members that provided statistically meaningful comparisons between resorts, tour operators and airlines (a kind of skiing JD Power report), eg do the lifts tend to open late and close early? did you have any bad experiences with unhelpful resort staff? was the piste grooming satisfactory? These results could be made available for 'slicing and dicing' so you can understand what fat middle aged incompetent skiiers (like me) thought of the place.

- A directory of people who are willing to be contacted to discuss resorts they've visited and tour operator they've used in recent years.

I find it amazing that the Ski Club has access to all this information but either fails to take steps to make it available to members or, if it is available, doesn't promote it as a reason for joining. In particular, why not use the reps as a big data gathering machine?

snow reports

An excellent and well thought out post Jonny, I like your train of thought.

It occurs to me that the Ski Club may not print some of the less complimentary reports for fear of "biting the hand that feeds them" and annoying some of the resorts that invite reps over. However this should be only a short-term response, as in the first instance any company *really* interested in skiier satisfcation will quickly resolve any issues raised (either by correcting a problem or explinaing the reason for such action), or else becuase they will be forced to do so by economic pressures as more skiiers avoid the resort due to bad reports.

true blue, OK fair dues. On the other hand promotion costs little or nothing on one's own website, and the same applies to selling tickets for an auction, that is if you don't provide the items actually being auctioned....

You know it makes sense.

Jonny, I think that your points are an excellant framework for a discussion and a starting point for everyone else! The difficulty that I can foresee is partly raised by NBT - just how do you finance such a "club". The problem is that as non-members we don't have access to accounts etc. so it is hard to know how the operating costs are spread. I imagine that repping has got to be one of the more major costs - presumably reps ARE paid?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

There are some reps around abouts who would be able to give you chapter and verse, but my understanding is that they are not paid.

I think this 'unbiased' information point is central, some of the later statements from Ski Club regarding the forum closure seemed to imply that upsetting repped resorts (who I believe either contribute in part or totally to the accomodation of reps, and also give permission for guiding) was a central factor in maintaining closure.

Its optimistic to believe that resorts would be forced to accept an "unbiased" Ski Club...

A snowHead

Reps must be invited to resorts, the resorts cover the accomodation, food and ski pass for the reps but otherwise the rep pays for drinks and lunch etc, I'm not sure who pays the cost of getting the rep to the resort. In some resorts such as Wengen which has a high number of Brit skiers, reps will be provided for the whole season, in others they may only be there a few weeks.

Of course with regard to bad reviews of resorts the skiclub gets stuffed both ways, if they allow people to write derogatory comments about a resort the resort won't like them, on the other hand if they censor such reports then their members complain Sad

A snowHead

As I understand it (having chatted to the rep in Flaine) the resort pays for the equivalent of half-board accomodation, the ski club pay for the flights and the rep just has to free up some time off work.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The Club has nothing to fear from honesty and everything to gain from it. The worst publicity that a resort could possibly get from the Ski Club would be a statement that the resort had declined participate in the repping programme after a rep published some honest information about its weaknesses. Would you want to go to a resort like that?

Tony, you asked

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I agree. As I said above, I'm not interested in all the commercial 'advantages' on offer. But I'd be happy to pay for ad hoc services on top of a low flatrate membership charge.

Bear in mind though that reps aren't allowed to instruct - they're not qualified. So I'm not sure how you could pay to ski with them without infringing the rules - I'm pretty sure the ESF in France wouldn't stand for that.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Oh my J J I like that idea about charging, I could get awfuly rich given the number of people who ask about Wengen, unfortunately I don't charge so there Sad

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Mr Goldsmith and his mates might like to read this article before embarking on a campaign to seriously influence the management of the Ski Club. It's a serious piece of analysis from McKinsey on the management of non-profit organisations - not light reading but, to my sad mind, very interesting.

Let's try a link... http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/article_abstract.asp?ar=1407&L2=33&L3=95&srid=17&gp=0. Note that you have to register with the site first.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Jonny Jones, I don't wish to register, but the introduction doesn't surprise me at all. I've heard all kinds of stories about the antics of the directors of allegedly non-profit organisations, and I still wonder just how rigidly enforced are the guidelines about what is acceptable in terms of the maximum running costs to income ratio ..... Does the article proper make any mention of that issue?

After all it is free

Thank you, Jonny. I'll take a look at that.

Apologies if this has been suggested before, but why doesnt the SCGB allow viewing of their forum (but not posting) by non-members? It seem to be that this would solve all the issues relating to their legal responsibilities, conflict with resorts, etc, but also allow non-members to at least access the archive of information (largely created by the non-members in the first place)

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Too many words to read all this fully at this time on a Sunday night. But I'm with Mountain Mad all the way.

the debacle with the website makes eveybody alienated.

And the few times I have met a "rep" while on holiday I have been made to feel "inferior" for one reason or another (the bloke in Whistler a few years ago, staying for free in the place we had paid a fortune for was beyond belief). They just seem to only want to play with the rich people. It really does seem to be an exclusive old boys club, and everything they have done with the website just confirms this.

Except that it is an obvious focal point for snowsport related things (chat, etc) which is why we all found it. I even considered joining, as I'd found loads of likeminded souls. But they pulled the plug on that.

They are condemned to the dustbin of history.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Lots of wise stuff here. I think people have yet to realise how important the net and ICT is going to become. If you consider the way the dotcom companies at first boomed, then bombed and are now quietly taking over, you might see waht I mean. If you compare SCGB with, say, Lastminute, they struggled for profitability but eventually made it in the new age because they had huge public awareness and were getting a lot of hits. SCGB had this and threw it away! You don't survive in the electronic jungle by shutting out your customers.

snow reports

Chris and Martyn. From my perspective, the SCGB was founded for British skiers - that's all British skiers (which includes you) - and any type of snobbishness or prejudice should be confined to history. It can be confined to history.

It is, of course, true that British skiing was founded (with the exception of those lucky enough to live in Scotland) by those wealthy enough to be able to travel abroad in Edwardian times. Therefore, until the advent of mass package ski travel in the 1960s, the Club was naturally true to a specific social class. Tomorrow's SCGB has to mix it with those who travel low-cost and stay in youth hostels, as much as it mixes it with those who stay 5-star. Of course, the vast majority of skiers sit somewhere between these two extremes.

It's known as inclusiveness and only be achieved by operating an utterly democratic club, in which every member is as valued as any other member.

My thought for the day!

Intresting to note David that there are a number of non British members

You know it makes sense.

But that is part of my point, D G Orf, . The net makes geographical location irrelevant. The pressure on SCGB came about because of digital success! They were winning in the new digiworld and ran off!

And David Goldsmith, is spot on when he says
"It's known as inclusiveness and only be achieved by operating an utterly democratic club, in which every member is as valued as any other member. "

That is exactly the challenge.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Actually I think what happed was that the comittee were fast asleep under the covers when someone woke them up, they then looked arround at all the people they didn't recognise, screamed slammed the door and pulled the covers back over their heads Laughing

A snowHead

Got their butler to slam the door I think you'll find

A snowHead

If any body is thinking of joining the SCGB if they join in the resort at the start of the holiday they get two years membership for their £50.00.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I have done a lot of skiing with SCGB reps and value greatly the opportunity to meet people from different backgrounds who share a passion for skiing. This year, for example, I have skied with a carpenter, a gas fitter, a surveyor, a doctor and a pilot. I have never encountered any snobbish attitudes among fellow members.

I think many of the ideas on this forum are worth pursuing but not sure what I can do as a member. I would support more openness and more control by members.

I do not think there is a need for a Club House - just an office probably outside Londo to benefit from cheaper rent.

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John I don't think anyone would dispute your comments with regards to fellow members it just seems the committee who are stuck at the turn of the last century in their attitudes

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

John, you should add your name to David's list on the other thread in this section.

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Help determine the future of the SCGB (non-members' soapbox)

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