Nickski, I guess it used to be the Nirvana of sliding on long flat skis with it needing big commitment and good skill to achieve . . . with today's skis and ubiquitous brutal grooming, pretty much anyone can do it . . . but it still needs good skill to do it right. I wouldn't say it's overdone but it may be given too much importance over other more subtle techniques needed for rougher conditions.
But it is fun to go obscenely fast and in control
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 10-05-08 7:17; edited 1 time in total
Butterfly, fat fingers, you've seen the size of the shovels I call hands edit done
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Nickski,
Yep, I'd say so... to stay on the edge throughout the turn is not that easy IMV.
Most people who think they are carving, aren't, to my eyes, but I suppose you should define a carved turn....50 % on edge, 70%...???
So on that basis, not the be-all and end-all.
After all it is free
After all it is free
one of the instructors who was doing carving drills with a group I was in said (to comfort us...having said our efforts were "dire") that very few people could carve a whole turn. It's maybe like everyone thinking they're a good driver.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
JT wrote:
Nickski,
but I suppose you should define a carved turn....50 % on edge, 70%...???
100% in my view. Edge to Edge with no skidding
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Carving is just one of several tools in the skiing toolbox. The better you can do it the more fun you'll have on skis. But that applies equally to the other tools as well.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Masque wrote:
Nickski, I guess it used to be the Nirvana of sliding on long flat skis with it needing big commitment and good skill to achieve
used to make me laugh when the 'new fangled' carving skiis came out and most people thought you could only carve a turn on them and not the old ones.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
JT wrote:
Nickski,
Most people who think they are carving, aren't, to my eyes,
I noticed this too..... I think any turn that is probably a bit more than 'half' a carved turn (50% carve on edge / 50% slide) feels like carving to the skier.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
stewart woodward wrote:
100% in my view. Edge to Edge with no skidding
then you look back up the slope and see 2 side by side knife like cuts in perfect S shape exactly down the fall line
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
then you look back up the slope and see 2 side by side knife like cuts in perfect S shape exactly down the fall line
I did see this one day this season, in Crest Voland. An ESF instructor on his own. Poetry in motion. Simultaneous and very, very, quick edge change of both skis. Lovely, lovely, tracks on virgin corduroy. He was the only skier on a big wide red run.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
pam w wrote:
Poetry in motion.
DISAGREE!
that is I think that makes it sound easy......
I think of it as a race winning F1 car screaming around corners holding the line, lots of factors holding it to the track, at any one time just a single part going wrong will cause a crash. Perfectly balanced the speed looks almost slow motion without a hint of danger. For the skier everything is so finely tuned and conditions so perfect that its almost like floating gently on a roller coaster with marshmallow wheels. Every turn takes just a little input and gravity and gforce take over.
of course I ski exactly like this all the time.....
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I have to agree with JT and stewart woodward. A carved turn is, by definition, a carved turn, not a partly carved turn. Once you remove the element of carving, even for 10% of the turn becomes steered. Very few people actual manage to keep the skis on edge, even fewer actually carve:
Even keeping the skis on edge for the whole turn doesn't make it a carved turn. Some people can do this, but not carve; they rail. A railed turn may appear to be carved, but unless the skier can actually control the turn shape and speed, as well as leaving down two perfect tracks, then they haven't been 'carving'.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skisimon, interesting in a 'parsing the carve' sort of way. You've seen me ski and I think that I can complete a true sequence of carved turns. I can chose and alter my trajectory/radii at will and as long as I stay relaxed I don't lose an edge to 'washout' Weirdly, because of my boarding, carving is my 'first' skill and I'm having to progress backward to gain the subtleties of control for the vastly different conditions the natural mountain throws at us.
What was fun was discovering a technique to get my skinny wee 160cmSX10s through the slushy powder . . . breaking all the rules and riding the mid-ski and tails . . . made my quads throb a bit though
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
well I know it isn't easy and that absolutely wasn't what I meant. He made it look easy though; like an Olympic gymnast in an elegant vault. Not remotely like an F1 car screaming round a track (and don't they drift, anyway?).
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
David Murdoch wrote:
ziplining bumps is not - and it's more fun...
Bit of bumps skiing for you with some instruction thrown in
I've also gone for the all black look. Black is the new yellow.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
David Murdoch wrote:
I've also gone for the all black look.
I'm shocked! You've sold out!! What next - short, fat skis?
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar, no, I am afraid short skinny ones... and maybe some long skinny ones too
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Darth Murdoch wrote:
I've also gone for the all black look. Black is the new yellow.
I am shocked.
Verklempt even.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Nickski, if in your OP you mean "is there too much obsession about the perfect carve" perhaps to the detriment of other skills/ways of skiing - I would say YES.
This decade short skis and long turns, In the 1980's long skis and short turns. I will be interested to see what the Ski industry and Ski Schools want to sell us next.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I was quite circumspect in my original post.
There did seem to be an absolute obsession with carving at one time but both in my observation of what skills are being taught/demonstrated and how people are skiing, it's much more about 'appropriate edging' (again). And I think that's much more practical.
Yes, carving is a great skill but in reality you need a reasonably wide piste and it needs to be relatively traffic free. It depends how you define carving but I think for the majority of us, we just apply the necessary edge to keep us on the line we want (there is a progression but there's also a skid element) and new style skis help tremendously with this. I borrowed a mate's old style crappo straight skis for a day and I could ski with them OK, just not without the same degree of confidence or accuracy. By the end of the day I'd adjusted to them but had noticeably cut back my speed on trickier slopes.
David Murdoch, from that video I suspect you could ski on pretty much any skis put in front of you. And I still owe you a video. I now have my own, rather than waiting for git mate, who still hasn't come through 2 seasons later. My skiing is nowhere near as good as that though but then I never skied until I was 30. And I realise I'm already getting my excuses in early but I've also got an arthritic hip and a knee with only half the ACL left (any more excuses to come as I think of them).
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Nickski wrote:
I was quite circumspect in my original post.
There did seem to be an absolute obsession with carving at one time but both in my observation of what skills are being taught/demonstrated and how people are skiing, it's much more about 'appropriate edging' (again). And I think that's much more practical.
Still includes learning to carve, and practicing, though.
Quote:
Yes, carving is a great skill but in reality you need a reasonably wide piste and it needs to be relatively traffic free.
Not really. Need a reasonably wide piste and it needs to be relatively traffic free or one needs to be a better, more versatile planner with some advance thought.
Quote:
It depends how you define carving but I think for the majority of us, we just apply the necessary edge to keep us on the line we want (there is a progression but there's also a skid element)
New lines, my friend, new lines. I won't tell you how many times I've gotten yelled at for picking lines that seemed to 'traverse' all over the place, when in fact, they were simple continuations and variations of turns. Mostly I get yelled at by the up&down skiers in the group.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
comprex wrote:
Mostly I get yelled at by the up&down skiers in the group.
The what
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
[quote="comprex"][quote="Nickski"]
Quote:
Yes, carving is a great skill but in reality you need a reasonably wide piste and it needs to be relatively traffic free.
Not really. Need a reasonably wide piste and it needs to be relatively traffic free or one needs to be a better, more versatile planner with some advance thought.
Quote:
It depends how you define carving but I think for the majority of us, we just apply the necessary edge to keep us on the line we want (there is a progression but there's also a skid element)
This is pretty good carving and the 'corridor' is quiet narrow
If Grandi got a dollar for every time that clip has been used to illustrate something he'd be a rich man!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I agree, many who think that they can carve a turn can't. Also I've seen many 'good' skiers who can't carve, but every skier that I've seen who can carve have been pretty good skiers.
Also, it's quite a lot easier to carve a GS turn close to the natural radius of the skis than it is to carve short radius turns, hence lots of the people who can actually carve a GS turn can't carve short radius turns.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Kramer wrote:
lots of the people who can actually carve a GS turn can't carve short radius turns.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Surely, a turn of tighter radius than the ski cannot be purely carved.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
laundryman, Dave (Diverskify) the instructor showed me how at the EoSB. Until then I didn't think it was possible either, but when you're carving, you pressure your ski as if you were skidding it, and it comes round a lot quicker than it would do, without skidding. It's really hard work, you have to really work the ski, but it does mean that you can end up with significantly shorter radius turns.
As far as I understand, the further you set the ski on edge, the tighter the radius a turn it will carve. AFAIK the radius of the ski refers to the theoretical radius of the sidecut in the plane of the ski.
Kramer, are you saying there is no foot steering in what you describe?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
laundryman, there isn't but there is. I know that doesn't make any sense.
To carve a really short radius turn, at the time of initiating the turn, you simultaneously roll the new outside ski onto it's other edge, whilst simultaneously moving your weight forward to really engage the shovel and edge, and at the same time working the muscles in your outside leg to pressure the ski as if you were going to rotate (skid) the ski in the direction of the turn. Because the edge is engaged, the ski doesn't actually skid, and instead (afaik) is pressured into bending into an even tighter radius, and you also get a much higher angle of angulation.
It's really hard work, when I was doing it my tongue was sticking out with concentration, and I was grunting like Monica Seles from the effort, and it uses all your core muscles, but it doesn't half make the ski shoot round the turn. From there, I found it quite easy to get to pure carved short radius turns on easier slopes. This was on my Scott Missions, it would have been even easier on a smaller ski.
Kramer, I with you and I'm not. I know that doesn't make any sense.
I can't see how the ski can be bent any further, once it's in contact along its length with a hard surface. I can see how the skier can change his apparent weight by up/down movement, resulting in changes to the reaction through the ski (a component of which provides the centripetal necessary to sustain the turn). The greater this reaction, the tighter the turn (at a given edge angle). In this scenario, there need not be any foot rotation, but the skis wouldn't leave pencil tracks. I'm speculating in all of this: I'd be interested in the views of the likes of GrahamN and sideshow_bob.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
laundryman, I promise you, pencil tracks, no sideways movement of the ski at all.
I think that what happens is that the forward movement gets the edge engaged, and then all the work that is done with the outer leg and core muscles has the effect of increasing the edge angle that you achieve, hence tightening the radius.
After all it is free
After all it is free
laundryman, I'd really recommend a lesson with Dave, he explains it far better than me, but it's like turbocharging your skis. It was an amazing effect on my Missions, I'd love to try it on some GS skis (from Atomic for instance ).
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
laundryman, a simple soul like me can never decide whether engaging the tips more etc really makes much of a difference BUT if you tip the ski at a greater angle, it has to bend more before the whole edge is in contact with a hard surface and therefore the turn radius will be tighter
again, i defer to someone who knows about geometry....
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Arno, I think that when skiing on piste, engaging the tips more, gives a better edge hold, allowing a greater edge angle without the ski washing out.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
edit done 
