 Poster: A snowHead
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i recommend judicious use of the power sideslip on the P1 traverse
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Fergus wrote: |
| ... What about a pole-planting on steeps? |
Could someone please clarify to me what "the steeps" are. It is an expression which is used often but are we talking about a steep piste or off-piste (powder, bumps or other)
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ski, I understand your 'stress point' - it's like trying to avoid walking into a lamppost by staring at it as you go!
There's a particular traverse en route to P1 that I'm thinking of - it brings you out onto some bumps (I know, more than 1 of those!). It was a bit easier when I was following our guide's tracks closely, I suppose because I had to focus so hard on that that I didn't have time to think about anything else so couldn't stress too much. Probably also didn't help that I had a back injury, so stance was badly affected. Hoping to go back next year and do better - less snowploughing on traverses!  Ta for tips, much appreciated.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| vetski wrote: |
| just to clarify, if I am initiating a turn to my left, my right ski - previously known as my uphill ski - would be the outside ski? I get a bit stuck with some of the terminology. |
That's correct (not that I'm any sort of expert). And if you think inside/outside ski is confusing, just wait till people start talking about inside/outside edges. Not to mention Inside Leg Extension transitions, where the leg in question is the inside leg of the old turn, not the new one.
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| nessy wrote: |
| Fergus wrote: |
| ... What about a pole-planting on steeps? |
Could someone please clarify to me what "the steeps" are. It is an expression which is used often but are we talking about a steep piste or off-piste (powder, bumps or other) |
It's a term relative to the skiier and generally denotes anything where initiating the first turn down the fall line involves the 'clench'.
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nessy,
"Steeps" is an off-piste term.... as in steep and deep, meaning a steep pitch and deep snow...
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paulcl, I'm fine with inside & outside edges, but Inside Leg Extension transfers sound like a Delia-style foolproof recipe for a faceplant!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm not sure that anyone has said it but skiing off piste (except on a firm crust of course - which is like a piste) you have to equally weight the skis. But that was always the case.
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Is this why skiing is so much harder to learn than snowboarding?
First, we learn to snowplough, which eventually we almost never use beyond moderate slopes. Then we learn stem turns, which again we un-learn to a large degree and move onto parallel. At this stage, we were told to put more weight the outside ski to carve...
And then, we move onto off-piste (bumps/powder) which doesn't respond to "carving" too well... And we put (almost) equal weight on both skis!!!
I don't get the impression snowboarding techniques changes so much through the different stages of learning. So there's not such a huge amount of "un-learning" (or "re-learning"?) year after year after year?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| abc wrote: |
First, we learn to snowplough, which eventually we almost never use beyond moderate slopes. Then we learn stem turns, which again we un-learn to a large degree and move onto parallel. At this stage, we were told to put more weight the outside ski to carve... |
Not if I were teaching you to ski. You don't unlearn anything.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| abc wrote: |
Is this why skiing is so much harder to learn than snowboarding?
First, we learn to snowplough, which eventually we almost never use beyond moderate slopes. Then we learn stem turns, which again we un-learn to a large degree and move onto parallel. At this stage, we were told to put more weight the outside ski to carve...
And then, we move onto off-piste (bumps/powder) which doesn't respond to "carving" too well... And we put (almost) equal weight on both skis!!!
I don't get the impression snowboarding techniques changes so much through the different stages of learning. So there's not such a huge amount of "un-learning" (or "re-learning"?) year after year after year? |
Lots of snowboarders are self taught or taught by the ESF which is possibly more damaging. This leads in the case of the former to turning by kicking the back leg around and in the latter doing ridiculous movements with the shoulders/upper body. To really get it nailed there is a need to unlearn all this stuff and learn foot-steering.
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You know it makes sense.
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vetski, it's how one walks.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| comprex wrote: |
| vetski, it's how one walks. |
Aha and thank you. Terminology - gets me every time. Though I do tend to find Inside Leg Extensions while under the influence of Ethanol somewhat taxing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I use snowploughing all the time.
I use stem turns quite frequently.
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Like what circumstance? For snowplough? I don't mean when you're teaching client how to snowplough. That doesn't count. (nor does pulling a sled)
I don't see why one would use stem turns FREQUENTLY either. But I'm here to learn.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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abc, stem if you're in a tight spot and have to make a sharp turn at slow speeds or with very little pressure. Examples may be on a very steep slope of unknown snow quality, or in tight trees. I used a few last week - one in particular where my heel binding had broken and was being held together with a bit of webbing, in deep heavy snow and jumps resulted in me popping out of what was left of the binding. Also useful if your legs have packed up and control for making turns is somewhat lacking. Also very common when you're carrying half a ton of cr@p on your back out in the backcountry. Other than those more exceptional circumstances I would say generally useful in heavy snow at slow speeds.
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| Quote: |
if your legs have packed up and control for making turns is somewhat lacking. Also very common when you're carrying half a ton of cr@p on your back out in the backcountry.
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That's what I typically do. But I'd thought that's just me, and not all that "frequent" for everybody else?
(I can see a stem is less tiring than a jump turn when you're carrying a ton of stuff on your back... )
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 4-03-08 23:23; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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abc, honest, snowplough is kind of good any time you need to go really slow (oddly enough) and stemming is really useful when you want to turn sharply from, say, a traverse and you're going really slow. I will confess, usual locale for both is lift queue approach... 
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johnnyh, I went back to skiing last year after 8 years absence and a 4 year absence before that one year. I'd already sold my *cough* 195cm K2 skis so didn't embarrass myself, but to be honest I didn't find it too different. I thought I'd have a problem getting back on skis but it only took one green run to realise that it's like riding a bike, you never forget. As for technique, I had one 2 hour private lesson during which we corrected a few bad habits and he taught me to carve but apart from that I didn't feel that I had been taught any different in 1989 to 2007.
I don't really have any advice on technique but I feel that as long as you're willing to keep trying and learning something new you'll always progress. I tend not to have group lessons all week, but treat myself to a 2 hour private lesson which I feel I get more out of, financially as well as technique wise.
Enjoy
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abc,
yep, use them all.... plough, stem, skid, side-slip etc ... you'll never get to half the places if you don't or can't.
Sometimes the safest or required turn isn't the prettiest or coolest....
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JT, good point. They're not just useful sometimes, sometimes essential.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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[quote="vetski"]
| abc wrote: |
| I'll use what I have thought of as novice techniques to get me out of tricky situations, but I've always felt that I must be wrong to do so, and better skiers wouldn't. |
The real shame is that people should feel this way; worse if it means they don't use whatever is the best technique for dealing with a situation and put themselves at risk. Look at it positively: everything you learn to do is part of your skiing repertoire and the wider your repertoire the more skilled you are. Draw from your range of skills both according to the demands of the situation and for your own enjoyment. If anyone thinks the worse of me for snowploughing to slow down on a narrow crowded path, that's their problem -the skiers I am not running into will be grateful. As for enjoyment, you do what you like for fun: try a few spins; alternate some skiddy turns with carved ones; put your feet close together and do a few chalet-girl bum-wiggly turns for a laugh. In short, be safe and have fun - this is a recreational sport.
And I apologise to all the wondrously skilful chalet girls who have never wiggled their bum whilst skiing for being so non-PC
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
but I've always felt that I must be wrong to do so, and better skiers wouldn't.
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vetski, ccl, it's not that I'm ashame of doing so. I found snowplough quite tiring. And stem turn, while less so, is still more work than a "scarved" turn when the skis are kept on the snow.
So, instead of thinking "better skiers wouldn't", I thought "better skiers don't HAVE TO" do that ugly turn because they can do a better, more efficient turn.
Which gets back to my original point, that's what make me feel snowplough and stem turns are skills not used very much except as a stepping stone to get to parallel.
Snowboarders don't have the luxury of snowplough and stem turns. So they had no choice but to perfect their side slip, carve and scarved turns. But I wonder if that's not a good thing, that novice boarders don't get side tracked by so many different intermediate skills? Instead, they just work harder on the skills they will use in all conditions...?
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| abc wrote: |
| I found snowplough quite tiring. |
Not necessarily true for all skiers, tho. 
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And stem turn, while less so, is still more work than a "scarved" turn when the skis are kept on the snow. |
More work but less total snow distance needed can be quite a bargain.
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Snowboarders don't have the luxury of snowplough and stem turns. So they had no choice but to perfect their side slip, carve and scarved turns. But I wonder if that's not a good thing, that novice boarders don't get side tracked by so many different intermediate skills? Instead, they just work harder on the skills they will use in all conditions...? |
Ah, but it is so much easier not to have to write lipograms!
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You know it makes sense.
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| abc wrote: |
| the skills they will use in all conditions...? |
HUGE misconception there - I doubt there are any skills that are used in ALL conditions. Different conditions require different skills. We even had one pitch where the snow was so heavy and soft the only way to ski it was to lean way back over the tails and keep the skis angled up at 30+ degrees! And don't be shy about using snowploughs when appropriate. Last week there were several times when I was following highly experienced guides and they slipped into snowploughs - primarily when the conditions ahead were unknown and speed needed to be controlled in a straight line while working out what was ahead.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Lots of great points here. And broadly most saying the same or similar things about having a range of skills and also the most appropriate skills for the time/place/conditions. I really agree with the idea that a better skier can do more efficient things with their skis. Just like when a beginner snow ploughs most of the time - that's the only skill they have - so it is right for all "their" situations. The real problem I'm having, which is back to the essence of my post is one of correctness.
For example, if I can get down pretty much all the terrain I want to, with a very close stance then why should I adopt a wider stance? Do I need to do that purely for fashionable skiing reasons? And that is where I start to be unclear what is right or wrong. I know a wider stance will make me more dynamic - but thus far I've been able to be dynamic in a narrow stance, so why do I need to change this? I would agree that narrow stance looks odd these days - but so would snowploughing a black run; and really if it's just about how it looks and not about what it does for your skiing, why does one need to "unlearn".
There are times when I'm really not sure this recreation sport is worth all the consideration that one needs to put into it. Some how it spoils the essence of being on skis in the mountain.
Anyone?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| There are times when I'm really not sure this recreation sport is worth all the consideration that one needs to put into it. |
Blasphemy!  There are, from what I've seen in various resorts, plenty of people who don't put much consideration into how they ski - but they won't improve, or graduate to tackling fun terrain - at least, not safely. I get cross with myself for doing things which I think I shouldn't (though "Whatever Works" shall be my new mantra), but it is a self-imposed pressure - basically, I want to ski well and fast and safely, and so must you or you wouldn't be asking the questions. I love the feeling that I'm improving my technique - I was in La Grave in Jan which apart from being great fun made me feel good because 2 years ago I certainly couldn't have skied there, and last year would have been dodgy too. I didn't ski it all that well some of the time, but it's a new base on which to build. Am hoping to start telemarking this year as well - a nice new challenge! Don't be disheartened, do have fun.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| There are times when I'm really not sure this recreation sport is worth all the consideration that one needs to put into it. |
Don't put so much consideration into it, then. If you're happy with the level of your skiing, stay where you are and enjoy it. Nothing wrong with that; we have no obligation to be the best skiers we can be, and certainly not the skiers someone else decrees we should be.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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johnnyh,
I think the only obligation is to enjoy yourself (in fact I'm not sure that's a rule). Rather than worry about it, why not have a lesson and get some advice from an unbiased professional ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| vetski wrote: |
| paulcl, I'm fine with inside & outside edges |
The problem with inside/outside edge is that I've seen them used in two different ways: relative to the ski or relative to the turn
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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paulcl, I think I only know the first - will investigate the second in my next lesson.
One day I hope to be the kind of skier who can give practical suggestions, rather than always asking questions!
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| johnnyh wrote: |
The real problem I'm having, which is back to the essence of my post is one of correctness.
For example, if I can get down pretty much all the terrain I want to, with a very close stance then why should I adopt a wider stance? Do I need to do that purely for fashionable skiing reasons? And that is where I start to be unclear what is right or wrong. I know a wider stance will make me more dynamic - but thus far I've been able to be dynamic in a narrow stance, so why do I need to change this? I would agree that narrow stance looks odd these days - but so would snowploughing a black run; and really if it's just about how it looks and not about what it does for your skiing, why does one need to "unlearn".
There are times when I'm really not sure this recreation sport is worth all the consideration that one needs to put into it. Some how it spoils the essence of being on skis in the mountain.
Anyone? |
Perhaps a wider stance is more efficient (for carving on piste)?
I went through the same process of adapting to wider skis. I still think my stance is narrower than most instructors on the slope. But it's nowhere as narrow as what I used to have.
I'm not an instructor so I don't know if there's good reason wider stance is better than narrow ones. But I can tell you for sure part of the reason for a wider stance is simply pragmatic. If you ever ski a wider powder ski, you just can't have a very narrow stance, or the tip will overlap when you change edges. It's a rather painful experience when it happens.
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abc, Stand with your feet together. Have someone try to push you over. Stand with your feet apart.. repeat the push over.
With your feet apart, roll your knees and ankles over (edging your skis) see how much further over you can get compared to your feet together.
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| ski wrote: |
abc, Stand with your feet together. Have someone try to push you over. Stand with your feet apart.. repeat the push over.
With your feet apart, roll your knees and ankles over (edging your skis) see how much further over you can get compared to your feet together. |
I don't feel it's a good arguement. We're not playing rugby. We're skiing.
More over, when the terrain is rough/steep, wider stance run the risk of the inadequate pressure on the inside ski.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| abc wrote: |
| the risk of the inadequate pressure on the inside ski. |
which does what on steeps?
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| comprex wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| the risk of the inadequate pressure on the inside ski. |
which does what on steeps? |
It gets knocked about into random directions.
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FAQ
so can have it's own peculiarities.
