 Poster: A snowHead
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I learnt to ski in the 1980's (at a dry slope).
I skied a lot since then on snow, but had a small gap a few years back during which time skiing evolved.
I've been adapting my "style" over the last few years since getting back into skiing with the carver skis. I've had a few lessons, done a course, read some books/websites and looked at some DVDs but I'm still slightly confused and thought you guys would be able to give me the facts.
So as I ski now, my old instructor(s) comments come flooding back and I attempt to do as they said. Should I forget these things or are they still valid?
1:skis close together - (OK I know the answer to this one - hip width apart - I'm just trying to be systematic
2:shoulders down the mountain
3:upper body quiet, which seemed to mean kind of straight and upright. I mastered the technique of NOT using the upper body to assist the turn, and as such seem to be able to ski with my lower body, leaving my upper body to appear "relatively" motionless and pointing down the fallline, while my legs do their movements.
4: weight on the outside ski. Resulting now in very little weight on inside ski (see next point)
5: skiing is a one legged sport so turn from outside ski to outside ski, leaving the inside ski to float in next to outside ski (resulting in tight/close stance).
6: ski as if one is riding a bike both stance (upright body and arms in front as if gripping handle bars) and leg pressure.
7: stand up in the fall line. Followed by . . .
8: bend the knees as one traverses across the fall line in preparation of making the next turn, thus creating an up and down motion as one skis.
9: keep the shins against the front of the boot at all times by flexing the ankle. There should be no gap between tongue of boot and the shin.
10:"Dive forward" in the fall line with arms and body
I think these are the main ones that I remember and that in the last few years have confused me since I'm no longer certain they are correct notions. I'm not a bad skier (despite the fact that all the above may be out of date). I would however prefer to get things technically correct, now.
Any constructive help on the above points would be greatly appreciated.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The OL and I had a lesson in St Anton a couple of weeks ago. What did we get? 'Skis closer together (but not one on top of the other as in days of yore).', 'Keep your shoulders down the hill.' 'Up and down as you turn.'. 'All the weight on the downhill (outside) ski.', 'Push your shins into the front of your boots.'. Just like lessons I had in St Anton about 20 years ago; he even had us holding our poles across the fall line and keeping them there through the turns (an excercise which was a beakthrough for me 20 years ago), and the old fave of skiing on one ski (my son had that in France this year, leaving one ski at the top of the piste and skiing down with only one).
Most of these I thought had pretty much gone out of fashion, thanks to carvers, and lessons we had for years (from the same guy) in Canada taught if not the opposite, close to it. I know that St Anton is steeped in tradition, but I was surprised. We were looking for help with skiing reasonably quickly while keeping within a narrow path, ie, no traversing, which I daresay affected the instruction. We had no problem with the advice, it seemed to work for us.
It seems to me to be a matter of 'tools in the box'; there are different ways of acheiving what you want to do on skis, and you choose whatever is best for the conditions and circumstances.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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IMHO...
2:shoulders down the mountain - > yep, mostly but not as necessary in longer turns.
3:upper body quiet, which seemed to mean kind of straight and upright. I mastered the technique of NOT using the upper body to assist the turn, and as such seem to be able to ski with my lower body, leaving my upper body to appear "relatively" motionless and pointing down the fallline, while my legs do their movements. > Oh yes, most definitely.
4: weight on the outside ski. Resulting now in very little weight on inside ski (see next point). Not so necessary these days, modern kit grips so much better than you can relax this rule in easy conditions.
5: skiing is a one legged sport so turn from outside ski to outside ski, leaving the inside ski to float in next to outside ski (resulting in tight/close stance). >See above.
6: ski as if one is riding a bike both stance (upright body and arms in front as if gripping handle bars) and leg pressure. >that's what I do
7: stand up in the fall line. Followed by . . . >not any more....at least, not always
8: bend the knees as one traverses across the fall line in preparation of making the next turn, thus creating an up and down motion as one skis. >not any more....at least, not always
9: keep the shins against the front of the boot at all times by flexing the ankle. There should be no gap between tongue of boot and the shin. >oh yes.
10:"Dive forward" in the fall line with arms and body >??? not at all sure what you're talking about? 
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johnnyh,
Some contentious points you raise,
1:skis close together - (OK I know the answer to this one - hip width apart - I'm just trying to be systematic
No except in the bumps.
2:shoulders down the mountain
No.
3:upper body quiet, which seemed to mean kind of straight and upright. I mastered the technique of NOT using the upper body to assist the turn, and as such seem to be able to ski with
my lower body, leaving my upper body to appear "relatively" motionless and pointing down the fallline, while my legs do their movements.
Yes
4: weight on the outside ski. Resulting now in very little weight on inside ski (see next point)
Jury is out, since Tomba. Most freeride skiers tend to ski two legged, a lot of racers will say one legged plus BASI still advocate one legged skiing and skiing one legged more easily allows variation in pressure in carved turns.
5: skiing is a one legged sport so turn from outside ski to outside ski, leaving the inside ski to float in next to outside ski (resulting in tight/close stance).
See above
6: ski as if one is riding a bike both stance (upright body and arms in front as if gripping handle bars) and leg pressure.
Stance yes,pressure debatable.
7: stand up in the fall line. Followed by . . .
8: bend the knees as one traverses across the fall line in preparation of making the next turn, thus creating an up and down motion as one skis.
No, modern skiing is more about a sideways extension rather than up and over, however the swiss still like up and over.
9: keep the shins against the front of the boot at all times by flexing the ankle. There should be no gap between tongue of boot and the shin.
Yes and no, leaning on the boot is fine but in more dynamic skiing you can move the pressure along the ski thro the turn.
10:"Dive forward" in the fall line with arms and body
No, fall thro the gap between tip and pole.
These are simplistic answers all of which dont really do the question justice.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
6: ski as if one is riding a bike both stance (upright body and arms in front as if gripping handle bars) and leg pressure. |
I don't think you'll want to stick too rigidly to the 'handlebar' technique. What about a pole-planting on steeps?
I'm not an instructor and I don't think my style is very conventional so I'm probably wrong, but I think people look very un-stylish with arms out in a steering-wheel position.
Feel free to dis-agree
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Fergus,
and they will... 
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| Quote: |
I think people look very un-stylish with arms out in a steering-wheel position.
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Warren Miller looks OK to me. Not so sure about the hair, though.
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Thanks everyone. So far what you've said has helped to confirm what I've been thinking but was just not 100% sure. I certainly agree with the tools in the box idea. One thing which doesn't help changing is that most of what I learnt years ago does seem to work - so it is very hard to think of doing something differently (and possibly not as effectively since it will be new) when the "old way" worked.
I'd be interested to hear anyone elses thoughts . . .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Fergus, I agree! I hate having my arms out like that so I generally don't do it...and then get told off by instructors for having my hands too low. I'm a tad confused by jbob's "No" to shoulders down the mountain - I thought that was what one aimed for, at least on groomed pistes? According to several instructors, anyway, though I have come to realise that it isn't always going to be possible.
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johnnyh, Even when you learn't, skis had all of the elements (sidecust, camber, edges) that they do today. So (to a large extent) what worked then will work now. IMV the things that give you the best results, if you want to change are;
Feet apart - you'll get the skis on their edges easier.
Start of the turn initiated by rolling the skis onto an edge first - don't need any unweighting for this.
Think about the ski running along it's edge to start the turn, rather than skidding.
Slow down the movements you are making (this is just an observation from teaching folk who learned a long time ago - a common fault is to quick movements - making the ski break away)
Try to keep both skis on the ground.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ski wrote: |
| Try to keep both skis on the ground. |
Failing that, one; failing that, at least try to keep them on your feet.
One of the things my Canadian instructor was very clear about was 'We don't turn our shoulders down the hill anymore.' This was, he said, to keep more weight on the uphill ski and so encourage both skis to carve (which makes sense). As I said, my St Anton instructor said the opposite (in the context of short linked turns on steep pistes). I suppose it's all about what you're skiing on and how you want to ski it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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richmond,
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'We don't turn our shoulders down the hill anymore
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In bigger turns yes. But (there's always a but) - need to make sure turns are started with the feet, not the shoulders, so (IMV) 'face the faaaalley' (in an Austrian accent) not a bad thing to aim at.
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[quote="richmond"]
| ski wrote: |
One of the things my Canadian instructor was very clear about was 'We don't turn our shoulders down the hill anymore.' This was, he said, to keep more weight on the uphill ski and so encourage both skis to carve (which makes sense). As I said, my St Anton instructor said the opposite (in the context of short linked turns on steep pistes). I suppose it's all about what you're skiing on and how you want to ski it. |
It's a mistake to think in terms of one thing being the right way in all that you do. Perhaps it is easiest to think of your shoulders and upper body following your line of travel. Thus, in short radius turns, as your Austrian said, your upper body should be heading down the fall line, separated from your legs which are doing all that turning magic below. But in longer radius turns, your line of travel is going to be much more across the slope; hence your upper body is going to follow that line and be separated less, if at all, from your lower. Try a fast GS carved turn with separation (shoulders down the hill); then try it with no separation - your shoulders following the direction of your skis. Feel the difference. You will feel much more secure and stronger without the separation.
Similarly with how far apart your feet should be. Fast and steep? Get them apart. Bumps or deep snow? Bring them closer together. Try the opposite: feet wide apart in bumps and you end up with one foot way higher than the other; feet wide apart in deep snow and you risk the inner ski tracking away from the other and being caught by its downhill edge and spinning you round.
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You know it makes sense.
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Different techique for different terrain. More than one technique can often be used on a given terrain (e.g. shorter turns in steep powder v wide carves) but certain techniques don't lend well to certain terrain (e.g. wide stance in the bumps, weighting one ski in powder etc)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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A lot of the "new" skill brought on by the birth of shaped ski has to do with carving on groomed surfaces. (Many skiers learn after the birth of shaped skies have trouble transitioning to bumps and powder.)
For the "old schooler" skiers, it's useful to think about the "new" ski on groomer. From what I read here, off-piste technique doesn't change as much new vs old. In fact, even off-piste skis are more similar to old-school equipment, with the exception mostly only in width.
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Poster: A snowHead
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vetski, My answer was a bit curt, I agree totally with ccl,
Regarding the hands its hard to look cool with your hands out front but its then hard to get the posture right without, look at this guy a good skier but look at the hands and then look at the ski tips off the snow. Not a coincidence.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ccl,
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[quote="richmond"] ski wrote:
One of the things my Canadian instructor was very clear about was 'We don't turn our shoulders down the hill anymore.' This was, he said, to keep more weight on the uphill ski and so encourage both skis to carve (which makes sense). As I said, my St Anton instructor said the opposite (in the context of short linked turns on steep pistes). I suppose it's all about what you're skiing on and how you want to ski it.
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I don't think I did.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jbob, are you sure that's a picture of a "good skier"? I don't think it's just the hands that need sorted, let alone the fashion sense... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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comprex,
I read the comment and picture held as an example of not how to do it...although the poster knows him as a good skier.
And anyway, it is just a snapshot of a lazy traverse.... or it might be more...can't really tell with just that frame.
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JT, agreed; perhaps my post was easy to misread. In order to look good, the hands have to go forward but everything else has to follow.
Let's play a game. Invent a scenario where that pic is a really good skier doing a reasonably good thing, possibly the best thing.
My entry:
The skier has just finished straight running a fair bit of fall line on demo skis that are a little too short, soft, or otherwise unstable. The snow down low has gotten soft and sticky. The skier wants to scrub off speed but also wants:
- to stop the skis from getting yanked backwards on the sticky snow when base-down, (hence toes being pushed in front of CoM).
- to stop the skis from hooking sideways when edged.
The chin down is a response to the snow getting slow. The shoulders are doing what they are doing because there was no counter developed during the straight run, and the tails are heavy with lots of effort needed to twist them because the snow is also heavy.
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JT, morning after headache; sun's too bright, no, no can't look; Owwww...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Easy fellas I presumed he was a good skier because he was wearing a helmet.
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comprex, JT, yup, there's a little too much back bottom ballast going on for my liking...  There's no way my hands could compenstae for that no matter where they were...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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jbob, "he"?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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How about, same pitch, no helmet-
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jbob, rossi's rock.... was that picture taken at nite?
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You know it makes sense.
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red 27, Dynastar 8000 to be precise, nite, no mid day.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Not bad.
Fwiw (and my apologies for uncalled-for snooping) I think the lady in blue in that pic series is probably the best example of a skier to whom a change in hand position could make a world of difference. She is doing a lot of other things very well.
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Poster: A snowHead
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comprex, The lady in blue had skied three days total when the picture was taken, and her instructor was carp. Christmas fish of Austrians.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jbob, so I got that wrong then.... it's late.... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jbob, all the more credit to her then, well learnt.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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jbob, crikey I take it all back. Well done for her, that's good learning!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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paulcl, I'm not sure if I'm more or less confused! I note that the references are made to outside and inside ski, rather than uphill or downhill - just to clarify, if I am initiating a turn to my left, my right ski - previously known as my uphill ski - would be the outside ski? I get a bit stuck with some of the terminology.
A lot seems very different from when I started learning to ski - and that was only in 2002 in Austria. After that most of my lessons were in France for a couple of years. Can anyone explain why that should be? I'm having a lesson with easiski at the MSB, so hopefully I shall return with a greater understanding!
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vetski, I don't think much has changed. Outside and inside ski tend to be used now, because that description stays the same throughout the turn, whereas uphill and downhill don't. Outside = the ski you have more weight on most of the time = the downhill ski in the second half of the turn. (Does that make sense).
There is no 'right' way to ski, there are just some better ways. You'll read, for example, lot's of discussion on starting the turn. We used to teach lots of unweighting with a rotation of the skis to point then where you wanted to go, these days it's a bit simpler to put the skis on a edge and let them turn you. This doesn't mean the earlier technique won't work, it just means there are better ones.
It's worth remembering that skiing is quite a young sport, so revisions to technique and teaching practise are commonplace. It's also worth remembering that ski instructors may not keep as up to date as you might imagine.
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| ski wrote: |
| vetski, I don't think much has changed. Outside and inside ski tend to be used now, because that description stays the same throughout the turn, whereas uphill and downhill don't. Outside = the ski you have more weight on most of the time = the downhill ski in the second half of the turn. (Does that make sense). |
Thanks, it does make sense - and I'm reassured to hear you say there is no 'right' way, only better ways. I had thought I was reasonably competent, but all the posts I've been reading have got me feeling that I must actually be lousy!
Another question - short turns. When I'm on a nice wide piste, practising short turns, I can do them. When I actually need them, I can't, and I'm not quite sure why. There's an element of fear - at La Grave in Jan, I needed them through the trees but was afraid of skidding off the ledge. Of course, actually skidding off the ledge didn't help matters! Any suggestions for how to work on overcoming this, or is there an existing thread you could direct me to?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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vetski,
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I can do them. When I actually need them, I can't, and I'm not quite sure why.
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Usual 'without seeing you ski' caveats apply.
I guess you are talking about the traverse back to P1 ?
Two tips;
1) When we get stressed, we like to think of what we must NOT do, and you begin to prepare for the worst. So thinking 'I must not ski over the edge' leads to some unrequired stress, and focuses your attention on the edge... raising the possibility of going over it. Rather than doing that, try thinking about what's good to do - e.g. looking ahead, keeping away from the edge.
2) LG is a knackering place to ski - especially the traverse back to P1. Keeping you hips forward (really forward), which is not easy when tired, will make those skis controllable again.
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| Quote: |
When we get stressed, we like to think of what we must NOT do, and you begin to prepare for the worst. So thinking 'I must not ski over the edge' leads to some unrequired stress, and focuses your attention on the edge... raising the possibility of going over it. Rather than doing that, try thinking about what's good to do - e.g. looking ahead, keeping away from the edge.
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I like that, and will try to remember it. Thanks. 
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FAQ
Oh and the fashion sense 
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