 Poster: A snowHead
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holidayloverxx, The 'n' even in Rahnss is a very, very, very subtle 'm'. So subtle you can't tell if it's an 'n' or an 'm' - well, maybe the French can. I think they start the 'm' but never get as far as closing the mouth before the 's'. There's cetainly no 'n' sound as in 'Rarns' like 'barns'.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| And yes, a lot of the final sounded consonants are a regional thing eg the 's' in Gigondas is always sounded locally, but often not elsewhere in France. Also, in Belgium and in France, some people pronounce the 'x' in Bruxelles as 'x' and some as 's.' Dead confusing, but I guess not as impenetrable as some of our quirks of pronunciation. |
Heck, in the Geneva area (DM will know this far better than me), even the locals can't decide on a generic rule for whether the x at the end of a place name is or is not sounded - Gex, is pronounced, I believe; Bardonnex certainly isn't
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I still can't get over why the 'ent' isn't sounded in "Ils allèrent". I heard someone say that it used to be sounded in old french...
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Never mind how resorts are spelt; the key question is how do you pronounce "Les Houches"?
I needed to get there from Chamonix a few years ago to start the Tour of Mont Blanc. The guy at the ticket office at Chamonix station had undoubtedly heard every possible pronunciation in his time, so understood where I meant by "Laysoosh", sandwiched between an array of pleasantries and accompanied by a hopefully gallic(ish) shrug. I've been curious as to the correct pronunciation ever since. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The Flying Snowplough, Lay Oosh.
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The Flying Snowplough, Lez Hooch Ezzz!!!!
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crosbie,
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I heard someone say that it used to be sounded in old french
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That's what I've read. More syllables pronounced in Chaucerian English too.
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The 'n' even in Rahnss is a very, very, very subtle 'm'. So subtle you can't tell if it's an 'n' or an 'm' - well, maybe the French can. I think they start the 'm' but never get as far as closing the mouth before the 's'.
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Yes, though I'm not certain it's an 'm' rather than an 'n'. Either way, the mouth doesn't close between the 'a' and the 's'.
Amazing, someone possibly even more anal than I am about this sort of thing... 
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I'm a bit of a philologist (in the trainspotting sense as opposed to the Oxford don sense).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Boris & Roy Hockley:
Me delighted too start sutch an intrestinn debait!! (Sic - but "You'll know what I mean!)
1. Never said it WAS one of the world's most pressing problems.
2. Not a case of "getting over it".
"CourchevAl" is like fish & chip's; your on Sky Sports; effect instead of affect; and numerous other examples where people say "It doesn't matter 'cos they'll know what I mean."
Fact is it's just plain wrong. Simple as that......
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crosbie, brilliant description. Me too, I guess.
mountainaddict, the puzzling business of David Murdoch's tourist office website remains outstanding...  Nice to meet another pedant, btw.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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"It doesn't matter 'cos they'll know what I mean."
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Subtext: 'I am thick as sh*t and probably talk about worthless TV programmes all the time'. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Don't suppose there's any hope of recovering the word 'sixth', is there? Everyone seems to pronounce it as though they count "One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Sick, Seven...".
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You know it makes sense.
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mountainaddict, Me thinks it must be!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
Boris & Roy Hockley:
Me delighted too start sutch an intrestinn debait!! (Sic - but "You'll know what I mean!)
1. Never said it WAS one of the world's most pressing problems.
2. Not a case of "getting over it".
"CourchevAl" is like fish & chip's; your on Sky Sports; effect instead of affect; and numerous other examples where people say "It doesn't matter 'cos they'll know what I mean."
Fact is it's just plain wrong. Simple as that...... |
But if you're going to have a rant about spelling, at least choose an example of spelling that REALLY is incorrect. It would strongly appear from their own website that "Courcheval" is in fact a legitimate spelling, perhaps a British spelling? Why not have a pop at the French for calling London Londres? They neither spell it or pronounce it correctly, so what's wrong with us calling Courchevel Courcheval and pronouncing it with an English accent?
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Poster: A snowHead
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uktrailmonster,
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would strongly appear from their own website that "Courcheval" is in fact a legitimate spelling, perhaps a British spelling?
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I'm still really puzzled by that website. But maybe you're saying this is like Reims/Rheims and Marseille/Marseilles, towns which have a special British spelling and pronunciation(not an entirely different word, that's surely a different debate)? If so, that's a fair argument. It comes more naturally to French speakers to pronounce and spell these places in the French way but, hey, I guess that's up to them. And there's not much logic to any of this - I certainly don't pronounce Paris 'Paree' when I'm talking in English!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's not exactly uncommon for different languages to use different words for foreign place names.
eg.
Milan = Milano
Brussells = Bruxelles
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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uktrailmonster, no, indeed, but I was not aware until now that Courchevel/Courcheval might be one such place. (I'm still not convinced it is, actually, but maybe it is.)
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, no, indeed, but I was not aware until now that Courchevel/Courcheval might be one such place. (I'm still not convinced it is, actually, but maybe it is.) |
Me neither, but if they use the Courcheval spelling on their own tourist website, you can hardly rant at other people using it!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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uktrailmonster, I'm not ranting, indeed I haven't expressed agreement or disagreement with the OP at all! I can't turn that extract into a whole website in English, can you? It would be interesting to look at the whole thing.
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Hurtle, I meant the OP ranting, not you. This thread is a very poor rant on the basis that Courchevel's own website uses the Courcheval spelling too.
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| crosbie wrote: |
| Even the French don't agree on whether the final z is sounded in Avoriaz. Maybe it's a Savoie dialect thingy. |
I've been told the z is a Savoie/catholic thing. The people & villages who refused to embrace Catholicism got a z put after their name. The local Savoie people didnt like this, so refused to pronounce it - as in Seez (near b-St-M) is pronounced 'Say' by the locals.
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geri, interesting story - anybody else heard the same thing? But final "z" is not generally pronounced in French anyway (e.g. parlez-vous anglais?). I've often wondered how Seez is pronounced. My Belgian (french speaking Belgian) friends sound the final "x" in Chamonix. And everybody who knows pronounces the final "s" in Val Thorens. It's good that things aren't entirely predictable!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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geri, pam w, That's fascinating indeed. I'd never heard it before but have just been leafing through a terrific book I'm reading, called The Discovery of France' by Graham Robb, to see if that's got anything to say on the subject. Can't find anything.
I think the Belgians are into 'x's! I've heard few, if any, non-Belgians pronounce the 'x' in Bruxelles otherwise than as an 's'. There again, there's not much doubt about the pronunciation of Aix. As you say, the whole thing is delightfully unpredictable. (How do you pronounce Auxerre? With an 's' or an 'x'? I was brought up to the former, but don't really know whether it's right.)
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pam w, Hurtle, I've been googling to see if I can find any foundation for what I said - but cant! I was told it by our friend in Peisey who is a real man of the mountains & true historian, so I have no reason to doubt him.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hurtle, my French teacher says Auxerre with a "z". Funnily enough it cropped up on Thursday when we did a workshop on wines of France and were standing looking at a map. We got confused between Auxerre and Auxonne, but I think they both had a "z".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, no, indeed, but I was not aware until now that Courchevel/Courcheval might be one such place. (I'm still not convinced it is, actually, but maybe it is.) |
Me neither, but if they use the Courcheval spelling on their own tourist website, you can hardly rant at other people using it! |
Native English speakers hardly have the monopoly on committing typos - personally I would put good money on the web site A being a typo
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pam w, how interesting - z in Auxerre, that is. Must listen more carefully when I get the chance.
I think you and geri might both like that Graham Robb book - it's full of interesting facts.
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You know it makes sense.
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Maybe they use the 'Courcheval' spelling on their website because they know English people use this pronunciation/make this mistake and therefore might type this spelling into Google to find the tourist office website? Just a thought.
The locals I have met here do not pronounce the 'z' in Avoriaz, so I say Avoriazz when talking to English friends and Avoria when with the Francais...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hurtle, Thank you for that - great idea for husbands birthday pressie - I can read it before March
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Poster: A snowHead
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geri, Alpe d'Huez - with Z. Les Carroz - no Z. Does that support your Savoie/catholic theory?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 16-02-08 22:06; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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How about a 'How Not to Make an Eejit Out of Yourself in Resort' guide? Ski-related pronounciation for dummies.
I knew the Courchevel thing but I've been flumoxed on plenty of others. I suppose it's only natural, especially when place-names seem to buck the trends of normal pronounciation. Lots of Irish placenames aren't pronounced in a way that's consistent with either Irish or English. We only know how to say them because of local knowledge. We sniggered when the flight captain announced our arrival at K-nock, prounouncing the derivative English silent K but in Irish you do pronounce the k-sound. Same guy explained to us that we would fly over Nor-witch too.
Anyway, maybe some of the snowheads in the know could phonetically spell out some of the stumbling blocks to save our (my!) blushes? I'm heading for my first French ski-trip and have only basic school French and really don't want to be driving people up the wall. Pretty please 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I once asked for "Juste deux orange" and got just two oranges. I soon learnt that if you ask for "Je dorange" you'll get orange juice.
Unfortunately for me the chilled cabinet contained both oranges and small cartons of orange juice.
Jus d'orange - don't sound the 's'. 
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MissRibena, I take any opportunity that arises to ask someone local how to pronounce names - that's how I discovered, for instance, how to pronounce Troyes. You don't need to blush - they're quite happy to tell you!! Where are you going?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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snowzebra,
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Maybe they use the 'Courcheval' spelling on their website because they know English people use this pronunciation/make this mistake and therefore might type this spelling into Google to find the tourist office website?
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That's exactly what I was thinking. It's why I was dubious about the entry justifying the alternative spelling.
crosbie, someone I know got laughed at once - he was told, very unkindly, that he had been asking for a squeezed car. He allegedly mispronounced the word 'citron' so that it sounded like Citroen.
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| geri wrote: |
| The local Savoie people didnt like this, so refused to pronounce it - as in Seez (near b-St-M) is pronounced 'Say' by the locals. |
Thank you; often wondered about that.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| Val despair |
aka "Val De Doo Dah"
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I'm constantly beset with people telling me they've been to Sham-on-icks or even worse, Tig-knees.
The French resorts are EASY compared to the vowel-free-zone that is some of the Austrian resorts
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
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