POLL - Who wears helmets and when?

A snowHead

I never used to wear one but then took the decision to buy and use one to appease my mother more than anything, I can honestly say it's certainly prevented me from suffering 2 serious head injuries, possibly could have been worse considering how hard I went down.

Like others I play rugby and don't wear a helmet but consider the speeds in rugby, they do not approach skiing, and hitting ice or a rock at high speed is worse than taking a shoulder to the head in rugby, much, much worse.

A snowHead

adamj11,

I would never have considered wearing a helmet while playing rugby (perhaps that explains a few things). I've only just started while skiing, but I think you may be wrong about the relative speeds involved. Two rugby players colliding head on and flat out would have a combined speed of about 50mph. How many people actually ski at 50mph?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Musher, there is something wrong with your maths there mate, before you even consider any kind of high tackle, usain bolt takes 100m to get up to top speed, so two rugby players would need to stand a good distance apart for them to each gain 25 mph before hitting each other, and even though the attacker might get some speed up, the defender will usually be getting into position at a much more sedate pace before accelerating towards the tackle, but do you really think they will get to 25 mph from a standing or even rolling start over a few meters? And high tackles are banned for a reason, a head or neck injury can be serious, even fatal.

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Sack the Juggler,

Full back (and high tackle specialist but not too sure of the relevance?) Delon Armitage attempts to stop Chris Aston after a 40 meter dash to the line. I don't have a problem with that being a 50mph(ish) collision - do you?

A tackle doesn't have to be high to be a 50mph clash. It just takes two players at full tilt hitting each other head on.

My rough guess at "Usain Bolt" pace was 25mph. I think it is actually nearer 24mph having thought about it, so I stand corrected. Two quick blokes running straight at each other would only collide at 48mph, so no need for helmets after all. My mistake.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

musher, I agree it would be quick but still not that fast, and still not head to head, more like waist height, as I said head tackles are banned for a good reason. if you want head to head tackles then you need to look at the lineouts in American football and they are nowhere near as fast, but lots of momentum, but then again thats why they wear helmets.

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The incident you talk about had Ashton going for the corner and Armitage running on the angle to reach him, this gives a relative velocity of one to the other of way lower than you are suggesting.

Also, a 50mph collision in rugby would require 2 players both running at more than 11m/s and hitting each other straight on, in reality the tackler is always more stationary and the ball carrier building up speed but also changing the angle of his run, meaning a much lower relative velocity.

Simply put a 50mph tackle in rugby is an absurd thought, a 25mph tackle would still be well outside the normal range of tackles.

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When I stayed on piste only until about 4 years ago I didn't have a helmet as I couldn't see why I would need it - learning to ski in traffic is more useful and is usually a good enough protection against this "out of control "boarder"". Now I don't wear one early season when no offpiste is available and I stay on piste, but as season progresses I'd always wear one. I had quite a nasty whiplash once which could have probably been a concussion without a helmet so it does work.

After all it is free

My main way of trying to convince people to wear a helmet is to show them my old one, cracked along the back where my head slammed into a piece of ice after jumping back onto a piste near Cote Brun in Meribel, I hit my head so hard that the helmet cracked for Gods sake, and despite hitting the back of my head I was left with a bloody nose. I would have been in serious trouble had I not worn a helmet.

I've never skied without one. I’m pretty good on horses (been riding since 7, helped with breaking-in, re-training a few problem horses, exercising racehorses etc) and I’d never get on a horse without a helmet, so I certainly wouldn’t ski without one, as I’m pretty bad at that Smile

I always wear one when cycling too.

Once I had a bad fall when skiing, and ended up with concussion - while wearing a helmet! I’m very glad I was, I dread to think what state I would have been in without one. I’m a better skier now, so maybe less prone to repeating that accident (I was on a very tough slope for me at the time, not in great control), but why take the risk? Helmets don’t bother me in the slightest, so why not wear one…

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adamj11,

I know it is not the most likely of tackles in game situations, but far from absurd. If you look at the tackle injury statistics available on sites like the British journal of sports medicine they don't usually try to estimate speeds, but classify as fast/medium/slow or stationary. Looking at a 2008 study of tackle related injuries (the first one I found), 1300 of 6100 ball carriers were "fast", as were 750 of the primary tacklers. From those numbers, it is entirely possible that there were no fast on fast tackles that led to injury, but I think it is more than a little unlikely. A very basic statistical probability would give a count of about 160 of those 6100. The study was of 13 clubs in the EPL over 2 seasons, so presumably about 624 games, so about 1 in 4 games had a fast on fast tackle that led to an injury - how many others didn't?

I fully understand that not all would be at 50mph, and not all head on (about 1 in 5 according to the study), but I would have thought that "fast" on "fast" is likely to be above 40 (we are talking about professional athletes here). Again statistically speaking 16 a season of these high speed injury causing tackles would be head on. Not a high proportion, but equally not an absurd proposition either.

All that aside, the summary of the survey results is understandable, with centres being the most prone to injury in the tackle situation - also the most likely to be hitting each other head on at decent speeds.

Sack the Juggler,
I never mentioned head to head, high tackles etc., only that the combined speeds of collisions in rugby were similar (or slightly higher) to those that might be encountered on piste by the average skier in a fall.

And that and that I was stupid enough to:

a) Not wear a helmet whilst playing rugby.
b) Get involved in this discussion.

PS.
I am not the the greatest skier
.
.
.
I only have 'O' level statistics
.
.
.
and I did play semi-professional rugby for a number of years

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You do realise just how fast 20mph is for a human? It's 9m/s for another way of looking at it.

And I still do play semi (in the lowest sense, I get money to cover travel) professional rugby (when not bumming around France as I have been the past 2 years).

Very few tackles have both players at a full sprint, the tackler is always trying to get his feet and timing set while the attacker is usually trying to beat his man or get an extra yard by going to the side, as such the force in a tackle in rugby is not the same as hitting ice or rock at speed while skiing, especially as the layers of skin and muscle on the shoulders and arms negate some force, rock does not.

snow reports

Hi musher, sorry if it got out of hand, didn't mean for it to deteriorate into maths discussion Very Happy

I neve wore a helmet when I played rugby either, but then again I was back rather than a forward

and whislt I was fast, I go a hell of a lot faster on the piste, and the falls on the hardpack seem to hurt a lot more than a tackle did when I was younger - although this is probably due to two factors - age and my selective memory! Very Happy

You know it makes sense.

adamj11,

I'm not talking petrol & beer money - I'm talking cars and salaries.

My shoulder was damaged by a Richmond center in a head on tackle. I was going as fast as I could, and his (not so) little legs were certainly pumping away.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Sack the Juggler,

That won't stop people arguing about it here Toofy Grin

A snowHead

Strange thread. Was strange 4 years ago and strange now. Thought I'd take a butchers to see how opinion might have changed over 4 years, but I'm not sure I can deduce anything.
Although having been on 1+ bashes every year since before then, I can probably deduce from that that pretty much every sH and every skier now does wear a lid, but back then I think people were arguing if it had crossed the 50% threshold.
They do keep you nice and warm though when it's -23C and blizzarding in the Dolomites, and a sH buff makes you even toastier.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

the rugby comparison is interesting, "scrum caps" seem to have evolved into helmets? or have I missed something? (one time schools international here, never wore a scrum cap, have the ears to prove it Very Happy

)

as far as skiing goes, I'm a sometimes wearer, probably closest to answer 2 above, altough some days that logic doesnt contribute to decision - sometimes the decision to wear is prompted by the desire to show off all the shiny and cool-brand stickers that adorn my ski helmet (trooooolllllll Razz

)

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The rugby analogy is in my opinion rather daft. Rugby scrum caps (They are not Helmets) were introduced to reduce cauliflower ears and the need for heads to be stitched after being raked in rucks. They never have and never will be designed to reduce skull cracking impact.

Ski Helmets are designed, as are cycle helmets, to protect the skull from breaking as best they can during impact.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

^ basically why i was interested/mildly confused - are scrum caps being used now as "helmets" Puzzled

big G shoulda wore a "helmet" wink

on the subject of scrum caps, whats up with some soccer goalkeepers wearing them these days Puzzled

(looks a bit special needs, or maybe they just dont wanna end up like Graham)

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I wear a helmet - always. have done for about 10 years. In US West, I'd estimate 75%+ folks wear helmets now.

After all it is free

I posted this in another thread, but it's more relevant in here:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110210202056.htm

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To continue to contribute towards the thread drift, anybody who is interested in rugby scrum caps should read regulation 12 - section 4.3 is the interesting bit regarding their testing. From what I have previously read about the testing of ski helmets, it seems that the scrum cap tested are far more rigorously.

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/0/060924gfirbregulation12_879.pdf

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POLL - Who wears helmets and when?

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