 Poster: A snowHead
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But seriously, I know little tiger's right that it will come down to lessons, and we've got a load booked for March, but in the meantime we have skiing practically on our doorstep and it would be nice to be able to experiment a bit while getting some of the miles under the belt
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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eng_ch, 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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One suggestion I might make is to stop trying to do short turns. You might be making it much harder for yourself. The reason people banging out short swing evenly spaced s turns across a small area look good is because they ARE good. They are not likely to do zer buggering of it up and go face down in a melee of arms and flailing poles. For zer learning this is no good. Watch a toddler learning to walk - they can only do speed and straight lines, they can't dance yet.
You might want to try simply straightlining some soft stuff and taking some time to experiment with your fore/aft balance. Getting centered and even pressure is is essential (again, observe the toddler and adventures in powder to date) and you won't be able to turn consistently without diving the tips or losing the tails until you can do this.
Assuming you have a nice balance and can cruise along from a-b whilst having a good idea where your tips are (being able to carry enough speed to surf the tips up really helps, if only for confidence) try making long, gentle sweeping arcs just off the fall line. To start with you only want to move a couple of meters off the fall line, as this is where you start experimenting with side to side pressure. Try for a turn that's a count of 5-10 seconds long, this will give you time within the turn to find the balance point, won't kill your speed and leave you sinking and will also force you not to overemphasize.
Depending on what feels natural then try either - 1 More pressure, more emphasis, letting you do bigger turns, going further and further off the fall line with the same frequency (x number of turns in 100m) OR 2. the same shallow turns with the same emphasis and pressure but at a higher frequency (y number of turns in 100m). Doing one will focus more on improving application of pressure, doing the other will focus more on your balance, but both go hand in hand. In learning one, you'll unconsciously pick up on the latter.
Try that for a bit, then your instructor should have lots of bad habits he can work on undoing 
I feel I should also stress a very GENTLE slope is the place...
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Cunners, that sounds to me like excellent advice! It seems that both eng_ch and I can straight-line if we have a run out and, as mentioned above, I think I want to be able to do a single gentle turn and know what that feels like before I start trying to link turns. As you imply, all this bouncing stuff the other week was a bit premature for me. Another thing, as you say, is the choice of slope: when I was faced with something that seemed a bit steep, my natural inclination seemed to be to stem (and, even more fatally, lean back) - not at all what my head was wanting to achieve, and not something I do on piste. Dammit, I wish I were near some snow to practise!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Glad it made some sense!
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Hurtle, Weems method seems to be based around the fact that women like to be able to stop..... In order to learn to GO he quite happily "cheats" a bit and teaches you to stop....
You sort of have to try it to see it work.... but I watched a whole group of very different skiers all of whom could not ski soft snow all become mobile quite quickly.... I'm a convert - because soft snow has always been my nemesis....
I'd take another lesson from Weems just for getting my head better around the exact movements and how he teaches them.... because they sure work well...
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little tiger, thanks, but sadly a trip to Aspen is not on the cards any time soon for me. I will bear the name in mind for the future, though. As a matter of interest, WHY is soft snow your nemesis? Your answer might shed some light on why eng_ch and I also find it difficult.
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Hurtle, I have no natural feedback to control limb movement.... to compensate I have learnt to use the pressure on my soles of my feet and feel of my skis on snow as a feedback system.
I come from a country with most days being positive temps - so snow quality is not great as it becomes slush every afternoon and freezes each night. From years of experience I know what slush and ice and snowgrass feel like to ski on... Also windpack and windblown snow. With little real powder experience I have a deficit of experience in same(partly your problem as well). Also the sensory input from soft snow(especially powder) is far more subtle. I spent years complaining that I "could not feel my feet". For me it is akin to being in a complete white out - no input - which way is up? One instructor finally hit the nail on the head with "there is feedback it is just quieter and you will have to listen carefully". My canadian instructor also pointed out my total hours in powder/hours on severe hardpack ratio. (or hour in powder/hours in slush)
I'm getting better - I skied powder with easiski on GS race skis(although not a huge dump) and only squawked a little bit.... and I skied a reasonable amount again on GS race skis with Fastman in April - but squealed much more. I did do some GS turns as well as short turns then though....
The silly thing is according to my instructors I have had the skills to ski the stuff for ages... but I do not trust my body to make the movements when I cannot feel what it is doing. When they want me to ski powder/soft snow they usually try to take me for a drink first!! I have been told repeatedly that i have the technical skills and have done enough work that my body SHOULD be able to make the moves nearly on auto. Then again - nobody is that sure that auto works in my body as I do not even have a knee jerk reflex really.
Summary is I lose feedback in soft snow. Hence why I prefer more heavy snow to powder.
My feeling on Weems - he is a cunning old Fitzwilliam  Liek many experienced instructors he has tricks! They work!(i have skied at home with a guy he knew from years back - same deal cunning bug!)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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little tiger,
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Summary is I lose feedback in soft snow
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Despite not having the same physical set-up as you, that's what I feel at the moment - see above, where I say I cannot 'feel' the turn. But, when I'm going straight, not being able to feel my feet is precisely what is so delightful about powder, you feel as though you're flying! It's just turning that's the problem.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| Hurtle, Weems method seems to be based around the fact that women like to be able to stop..... |
Spot-on there, I like to know what my "get out of jail" cards are. And the problem with not being able to turn well in powder is that you (I) end up just accelerating all the time, which is why Arno's description of "not too steep" is accurate. If I could rely on my turning ability, presumably speed control is just (!) a matter of finishing the turns more?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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eng_ch, I've found that speed control is the problem more than anything - finishing the turn more doesn't seem to work. If I was happy in being able to stop, I'd be ok. I seem to be able to do 5 or 6 turns, each getting faster, then I lose control.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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yoda and cunners had good ideas...
initially dont try to make short turns but just little wiggles in the snow on fairly straight line descents to get your balance working and feeling for the snow....
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You know it makes sense.
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| erica2004 wrote: |
| eng_ch, I've found that speed control is the problem more than anything - finishing the turn more doesn't seem to work. If I was happy in being able to stop, I'd be ok. I seem to be able to do 5 or 6 turns, each getting faster, then I lose control. |
Sounds like you are in the back seat - something I really used to suffer from but seem to of mostly eliminated now. If the whole ski is used to turn and you are centered then speed control generally isn't a problem. So how do you use the whole ski and not just the rear?
A tip that has helped me is difficult to explain without digrams but I will give it a go .........
This tip creates a new sort of reference.
As you plant your pole forward with a flick of the wrist it's likely that your weight is on your heels. As the pole nears the binding concentrate the weight into the centre of the ski and then very lightly onto the front of the ski as your bindings pass the pole - a slight pressure on your shins should be experienced. What this does is keep you out of the back seat at the end of the turn. Try it on the piste first until you can control your speed with turns and not just skiding to a stop after a bunch of turns. Ski down the piste killing as much speed as possible with turns then let yourself speed up again by not finishing the turns then slow down again with finished turns repeat over and over. Now take it to the powder.
Finishing the turn while central to the ski kills speed and gives control, finishing the turn while in the back seat just propells/throws you into the next turn.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 25-01-08 12:27; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Arno, can I ask? The exercise you described on the last page, it sounds to me as if it would almost feel like braquage but without the degree or speed of rotation - right tree? wrong tree? (woof)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| initially dont try to make short turns but just little wiggles in the snow on fairly straight line descents to get your balance working and feeling for the snow.... |
and when you look back up at your tracks at the end of the run they will look like you were making much bigger turns than you felt you were.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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eng_ch which exercise was this - maybe i'm having a brainfart but i can't see one!
but braquage in soft snow is a BAD IDEA (unless you have reverse sidecut skis). you need to flex the ski to turn; not rotate it
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Yoda wrote: |
eng_ch, an experiment for you:- find a nice longish stretch of not too steep and not too deep (but deep enough ), preferably light and untracked if you can find it  By "not too steep" I mean where you have no emotional problems with the thought of just going straight down if you felt like it. Set off in a "narrowish" stance - if you learned on carvers you may have a "wide" normal stance but if you ski, say, bumps by turning both feet/legs/skis with strong leg movements do you have a narrower stance then? - and try to keep "forward" in your boots in a nicely flexed stance but without the tips suddenly diving downwards - you may find the stance is the hardest bit to get right
Once moving at a reasonable pace extend both legs at the same time to "push" the skis down into the snow at a slight angle to your direction of travel (ie the tails will be further from the fall line than the tips, but not by much) - only a small angle and a small downward sinking of the skis will be enough. The snow will seem to have the effect of pushing your skis back up, let them come and as they break the surface you can turn them slightly (together, with your feet) across the fall line so that the next "push" down is on the other side. Don't try and rush anything (remember, this is a shallow slope!) and maybe imagine you're bionic woman doing everything in slow motion  Try to keep a constant speed at each part of the flow, no abrupt deceleration or acceleration.
Repeat and continue for as long as you can. You may not feel as if much "turning" has been happening but when you stop and look back at your tracks you may get a pleasant surprise |
Arno, my apologies, it wasn't you, it was Yoda  I realise one doesn't want to "do" braquage, but I was trying to get at the feel of extending the legs at an angle to the fall-line: it sounds to me like "pushing the heels out", which is what braquage "feels" like to me in a way. This is my basic problem with powder, I think - I've never yet done it right to "feel" it, so I'm trying to work out a mental comparison
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yoda, I like it and think it is really a good one... especially when done whilst humming "tea for two" 
I do feel strongly though that small rotational movements of legs and feet at low speeds in powder can work well and get people going. It is overdoing the pushing/pressuring along with a lot of upper body movement that catches people out IMO.
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SO-O-O much good stuff here to ponder on, thanks everybody! I may have to print a copy off before I go skiing again in March!
Arno, your comment about control is dead right in my case - I loathe being out of control.
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Hurtle, Control is a relative term though...we don't have the same 'control' on skis as on foot, even when we feel 'in control'. ie, You can't stop instantaneously on skis, which you can do on foot. Certain factors enhance the pushing of the 'control' definition (steepness, ice, off-piste snow conditions) where although we may be in control we take longer to stop or turn...similar to the difference between driving a car on a dry road, wet road or icy road....
re Soft snow skiing : one big concept to get our heads around is support from the snow: its a bit like treading water in a swimming pool...you CAN get some support, but there ain't nothin' solid under foot. If we try to 'stand' on the bottom we're in trouble...
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Another analogy that might work is imagine you are jumping on big cushions to the left and right of you.
The cushions aren't highly sprung and the rebound takes a little time.
As you land on each cushion you need to be central not leaning back.
It's no longer a flat surface you are trying to feel but the spring rate of the snow below and that you are landing central to the skis (with approx equal weight on both skis).
If you land on one cushion leaning back you need to get forward - pulling the feet back ever so slightly can help.
You don't jump and stay for too long on any cushion but use the spring in each cushion to get you to the next one.
You need rhythm, the lighter the snow the faster the tempo.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 25-01-08 20:24; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
yoda and cunners had good ideas...
initially dont try to make short turns but just little wiggles in the snow on fairly straight line descents to get your balance working and feeling for the snow.... |
skimottaret, I'd say your way works great for certain folks especially blokes. For some reason women dislike this idea and try to fight it. Hence my comment that weems is cunning. He does not try to get the women to fight their instinct to want to stop. He works with it. It is sort of cheating because you do not want to stop or slow too much when skiing powder, but it works because it removes the incessant desire to try to do so, by letting you know you can. (yes us girls are a little mad maybe but it did work for about 6 women all very different types and skier types but all not happy inn powder)
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offpisteskiing, indeed. I'm not looking for total control, just to be able to turn more or less where seems appropriate! Being on a mountain when my ability to turn at all is unreliable strikes me as being on the dangerous side of out-of-control! Good point about snow support, btw: I used to do synchronised swimming at school and some moves were learned only after a lot of involuntary snorkelling. But they were learned in the end, one just had to gauge correctly the level of support that the water could offer. It must be just the same with deep snow, I guess, the feeling of what the snow underneath your skis will do, and how best to displace some of it to your advantage.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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IMHO I'm sure you'd get alot more benefit from a private lesson rather than trying to solve it on t'internet.......
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DB, very good analogy, i think practice on piste until you can definatly recognize the feeling of being central on your skis, because when that feeling becomes natural, take it into the powder and things just seem to fall into place.
also giving up on a little control will help, and lets face it a fall in powder at a reasonable speed isn't that bad, and won't hurt that much
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| kitenski wrote: |
| IMHO I'm sure you'd get alot more benefit from a private lesson rather than trying to solve it on t'internet....... |
I refer you to my post at the top of this page But I've had private lessons and it hasn't worked so far, I still haven't got it right to be able to feel what it should feel like, which is why I think it's time to do a bit of gentle, safe experimenting so that I optimise lesson time in March
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You know it makes sense.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| IMHO I'm sure you'd get alot more benefit from a private lesson....... |
not to mention some snow on which to practise. Meanwhile, I'm extremely grateful for the excellent tips I'm getting here.
Neilski, see above, falling over is fine, but getting up, finding equipment, removing snow from inappropriate places etc etc is a hell of a faff!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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continuing the "out of control" theme - i once saw skiing in deep powder described as a series of linked recoveries. there's a technical side to it (which I am probably not very good at describing) and also a mindset where you say to yourself: this turn might be feeling a bit dodgy but I am going to trust my technique and recovery skills and just go straight into the next one. sometimes the problems mount up and you wipe out or stop and try again but quite a lot of the time it starts to come together.
powder is all about having fun so mess about, get a bit reckless and don't worry too much about whether you look like something out of a technical manual 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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little tiger, perhaps you could expand more on your weems lessons and how they work for women (or those needing to feel more in control and able to stop quickly) i would be interested to hear more....
I had 6 days with a very experienced guide last week and he went over at least 5 times so it can be a "series of linked recoveries" at times for anyone.... everyone in the group took a tumble but other than some lost sunglasses noone got hurt...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Arno,
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but I am going to trust my technique and recovery skills
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Er, what technique?! And powder is so much less forgiving of poor technique than the piste: I can recover from all sorts of mistakes on piste - including sitting in the back seat - but recovery in powder so far seems impossible, wipe-out seems to be the only option! But of course you're right, there can be nothing to beat just messing about and trying things out, which is precisely what eng_ch aims to do. Thinks.....maybe I don't need tips on technique at all - just some tips on how, efficiently and quickly, to dig myself and my equipment out of snow craters! Speaking of which, someone said that the best way of using poles to help you get up, was to lay them crossed on the snow, and then press on the 'join' to get up: I tried that, and the poles (and I) became totally buried! Shurely shome mishtake.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
Arno,
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but I am going to trust my technique and recovery skills
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Er, what technique?! ;-) And powder is so much less forgiving of poor technique than the piste: I can recover from all sorts of mistakes on piste - including sitting in the back seat - but recovery in powder so far seems impossible, wipe-out seems to be the only option! |
What you've just described is 'less forgiving of poor recovery skills' not 'less forgiving of poor technique'. On groomers it is so easy to hide from ourselves that most of our recovery "skills" are the same ones as learnt when barely out of the crib, and too often applied in too-fast-panic mode.
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But of course you're right, there can be nothing to beat just messing about and trying things out, which is precisely what eng_ch aims to do. |
One thing to mess about with, on any snow:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=436450#436450
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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comprex, not sure I understand the subtleties of your first point, but never mind. To which bit of that linked thread are you directing me?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| comprex, not sure I understand the subtleties of your first point, but never mind. |
Really? I didn't think there was much of subtlety in it:
We natter about 'technique' endlessly, mysteriously assured that there is 'proper' and 'more proper' without ever actually exploring what those are. Yet we never look into 'recovery' skills, nor are we actually very often instructed in them.
The same recovery skills that a toddler uses to manage standing on one foot whilst lurching the other forward are the ones we bring to skiing. Except that the foot is now bigger, extremely slippery, and can't be used to step forward so one has to act RIGHT NOW- PANIC before it slips out to the front and lands on our backsides.
Slow, patient, minimal force recoveries using edges or bases of the ski are completely counterintuitive.
I post it here because it is relevant to quite a few of the pet controversies that are endlessly nurtured including ski waist size, 'blades' vs. skis, should one have sidecut in powder, and so ever forth.
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To which bit of that linked thread are you directing me? |
The post at the top: extending the ankles out to the side of the CoM and further along the path of the skis, which is not the path of the body. That move, and it's counterpart of drawing them back, is something that can be practised anywhere really.
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| comprex wrote: |
| extending the ankles out to the side of the CoM and further along the path of the skis, which is not the path of the body. |
My bold. This is what I was referring to earlier and what I understood Yoda's experiment post to suggest. But I probably misunderstood
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eng_ch, extend the ankles out, lean back (like Bode Miller) and recover slowly and patiently. After you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eng_ch, not the same in all details, but the extension is similar. Yoda's experiment requires far less out-of-static-balance sensation.
Start with Yoda's one on the ungroomed; practice the other everywhere else that you're already comfortable.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 25-01-08 23:20; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
Let's see if I can describe more meaningfully - if you are travelling straight down your nice gentle slope and you want the parts of the skis in front of your feet to deviate to the left, say, then this must mean that the parts of the skis behind your feet move to your right of the "straight (fall) line" that you have hitherto been travelling down. So you are right, the skis do cross the fall line. The big question is, do the skis move to that angle by you "pushing out your heels" as you put it, or do you feel that you can impart a "twisting" 
If you sit on a chair lift without a foot rest can you turn both skis together (that is, rotate them around the notional centres of the skis directly beneath your feet) using your legs? The answer I hope is yes 