 Poster: A snowHead
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I've had a go but the instructors have never been very specific about how to do it. I've been in a couple of groups where you 'just have a go'. I think a gentle slope with 'not too deep' snow might help. I've been practising short turns.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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short turns down the fall line. you do need a fair slope though as powder snow will slow you down, if it's too gentle you won;t move
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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erica2004, I've had various lessons on it but still can't turn in powder  Choppy bumpy stuff not really a problem, but I feel as if I've received conflicting messages about how to turn in powder - legs closer together vs ordinary stance, pressure vs rotation etc etc. No doubt it's not the instruction but my own confused reception, but net result is I'm OK in a straight line, but can hardly turn and need a handy run-out to a piste to stop. I'll have a go down the side of the piste, get up a bit of speed to make sure I get through the powder but I need that run-out still. So I too would be very interested in an "idiots' guide" to turning in powder
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eng_ch, have you got some all-mountain skis? Rossy 210's from back in the day will make it tougher 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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eng_ch, snap, on absolutely all counts!! (And I hired some flexible, wide-ish skis this time.)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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red 27, I really can't blame my tools, sadly. But at least that means I know it's me No, bottom line is I'm confused about what I'm supposed to be trying to do, let alone achieve it
Hurtle, how was your trip?
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| erica2004 wrote: |
| I've had a go but the instructors have never been very specific about how to do it. I've been in a couple of groups where you 'just have a go'. I think a gentle slope with 'not too deep' snow might help. I've been practising short turns. |
'off piste' covers a multitude of snow types and conditions so there is not a 'cover all' technique which you can apply, it's then more about adapting what you know already to the conditions you find. I usually take a couple of turns to work out whats required  (or have a sit down)
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eng_ch, it was OK, but I was no more competent at the end of the course than at the beginning. Being a reasonably competent piste skier, I found it, in truth, a bit demoralising, particularly since there was so much lovely powder to enjoy (theoretically). I actually think that the bottom line may be: I started too late.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| 'off piste' covers a multitude of snow types and conditions so there is not a 'cover all' technique which you can apply, it's then more about adapting what you know already to the conditions you find. I usually take a couple of turns to work out whats required (or have a sit down) |
ding ding! it's all about feeling the snow and adapting to it. so one single technique won't work in every situation. if you have half decent piste technique it's a case of getting as much practice as you can and working out for yourself what works and what doesn't
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good basic technique helps along with particular attention to balance, stance and pressure control between the skis
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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david@mediacopy, Agreed. But I'm likeeng_ch, - I don't have a problem in chopped up snow conditions or bumps, it's just the soft stuff. I can't seem to get the turns right and I do get conflicting suggestions. How are you actually supposed to turn. I've learnt to carve from the outset, so flattening the skis is alien to me. How am I supposed to turn?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| erica2004 wrote: |
| I've learnt to carve from the outset, so flattening the skis is alien to me. How am I supposed to turn? |
And therein lies the problem - when you carve, your skis bites into the hard surface. In powder, there is no hard surface. This is where all the talk of leaning your kness and "angulation" begins to make sense - while keeping your upper body facing down the fall line, you lean your knees over so that the skis are no longer flat to the ground. theis builds up the pressure under the skis and brings them round. you then immediately lean your knees the other way - no traversing in powder - and repeat. You can;'t make the sharp, hard fast turns off piste that you;re used to making on piste, you need to be more flowing and in tune with nature, man (peace)
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erica2004, to be more detailed, initially at slow speeds you need to rely on rotary movements of feet which people find hard to do in deep snow if they havent learned how to seperate their upper and lower body. If you rotate your upper body to initiate turns you will get unbalanced quickly as one leg will get more pressured than the other.
as speed builds up pressure control becomes a more important steering component when turning in deep soft snow. personally i dont like the "bounce up and down" school of thought.. i prefer to keep my upper body quiet and retract my legs in deep snow at the transition and extend the legs outwards and sideways to build pressure whilst turning.... does that help?
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, that's very interesting, I wish I had some deep soft snow to try that in, right now! My problem seemed to be twofold: first, that the rotary foot movement you describe didn't seem to achieve anything and, secondly, that the extension/retraction (actually the Swiss instructor did keep saying 'bounce') felt - as it no longer does on the piste for me - as though I were trying to rub my stomach and pat my head at the same time: the more I thought about it, the more muddled I got! And pole plants confused the issue even further. But if I just tried to do all these things a bit more on auto-pilot, I simply fell over (sometimes because I was leaning back, but that's another issue.) All very frustrating.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hurtle - are you my secret twin??
| Hurtle wrote: |
| skimottaret, that's very interesting, I wish I had some deep soft snow to try that in, right now! My problem seemed to be twofold: first, that the rotary foot movement you describe didn't seem to achieve anything |
Indeed - the only way I seem to be able to effect a change of direction is by pressuring the outside ski, rather like when first learning about edges in a snowplough where you lean your entire body over one ski
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| and, secondly, that the extension/retraction (actually the Swiss instructor did keep saying 'bounce') felt - as it no longer does on the piste for me - as though I were trying to rub my stomach and pat my head at the same time: the more I thought about it, the more muddled I got! |
That's one of the confusions for me too. The pressure seems to be supposed to be exerted at completely the opposite part of the turn from on piste. I'm used to pressuring as I come round the bottom of the turn before releasing for the next turn. I cannot get my head round (and hence body to do) pressuring the side of the turn and release the top/bottom
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| And pole plants confused the issue even further. But if I just tried to do all these things a bit more on auto-pilot, I simply fell over (sometimes because I was leaning back, but that's another issue.) All very frustrating. |
Yep.
And the other problem is when experienced people say "just try a few things and see what works" and "attention to ... pressure control between the skis". I'm sure that's correct, but it's not dreadfully helpful when nothing you try actually works at all and you don't know where you're supposed to be starting with pressure control - what is the desired pressure ratio to aim for in the first place? I'm still waiting for an aha moment
I should probably add that, like Erica, I learned to ski after the carving revolution, I was taught to use edges above all and I find it incredibly difficult not to edge
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Poster: A snowHead
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| i prefer to keep my upper body quiet and retract my legs in deep snow at the transition and extend the legs outwards and sideways to build pressure whilst turning |
This I can mentally picture and understand - once you are actually under way and turning. But how do you initiate that first turn in powder?
OK, taking this a step further, can anyone suggest some basic exercises to try out? Maybe ones that, strung together, become turns in powder? And preferably in words of one syllable 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 24-01-08 16:46; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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eng_ch,
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are you my secret twin??
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I think the answer to this must be yes, save that I learned to ski before the carving revolution, so I can't blame that. I too am waiting for a eureka moment, but I can't help feeling that's not going to happen while I'm sitting at my desk in London. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle, from Saturday I have 8 days to have a play, which is why I'd like to have some ideas what to experiment with and how
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eng_ch, waaayyyy, lucky you! Bonne chance! Maybe skimottaret is sucking his pencil as we speak - there was certainly a bit of a glimmer for me in what he's already posted.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle, sorry my choice of words was poor i didnt mean to say rotary foot movements. i should have said rotation of the whole lower body. at slow speeds this starts with a little foot/ankle rotation but also includes the more important joints of the knees and femur/hips.
in deep snow you can steer the skis with lower body rotation and as speed builds so will pressure under the skis when controlling the pressure becomes a much more dominant component in steering. as pressure gets higher it will allow the legs to extend outwards further from the body at the top of the turn and retract at the bottom of the turn to reduce pressure.
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I'm used to pressuring as I come round the bottom of the turn
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that is the problem as you should be absorbing pressure at the bottom by flexing the legs, not increasing pressure by extending at the bottom. next time on piste see if you can get yourself to FEEL equal pressure during the whole of the turn...
Pressure distribution between the outside and inside ski in powder needs to be much more balanced at lower speeds and people who havent learned how to pressure the skis in the top half of the turn will struggle with balance.
pole plants may be causing you problems because you might be twisting your upper body to initiate turns. if you are countering at slow speeds you shouldnt be getting as unbalanced.. being able to do the tea tray drill on piste can help this...
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i don't think there is that much difference in technique when skiing soft snow to skiing hard snow. however, you can't just stand on one ski and let it turn you. if you do this it will sink and you'll do a twisting fall.
you want both skis to dig into the snow by about the same amount so you need to keep pressure on them more equal (doesn't have to be absolutely equal). it's also more crucial that both skis are moving together. having your feet closer together can help with these but it isn't absolutely necessary.
finally, getting some speed up really helps. slow turns in deep snow are hard work!
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brian
brian
Guest
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Like Arno says, I don't think it's that different either but note that attempts to skid or force the ski round quickly which you can get away with on hard snow are doomed to a messy failure The heavier (or crustier) the snow the more patient you have to be in letting the skis turn.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
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I'm used to pressuring as I come round the bottom of the turn
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that is the problem as you should be absorbing pressure at the bottom by flexing the legs, not increasing pressure by extending at the bottom. next time on piste see if you can get yourself to FEEL equal pressure during the whole of the turn...
Pressure distribution between the outside and inside ski in powder needs to be much more balanced at lower speeds and people who havent learned how to pressure the skis in the top half of the turn will struggle with balance. |
My inability to express myself properly here may just have caused a faint glimmer of the lightbulb... I do in fact pressure the turn initiation on piste and absorb the finish of the turn by "bending ze knees" (as an aside, though, both are "pressure" aren't they? but one is active pressure by "pushing" and the other is passive pressure by "flopping" a la Floppy the Snotman?). So you're saying do the same in powder? But instead of lowering the body, raise the knees (same movement/effect, different thoguht process?)? And push out instead of up on the initiation - but with both legs, instead of one and relying on the second to point and tip? (My apologies again for poor expression)
But that still doesn't shed any light for me on how to initiate the first turn, assuming you start by going straight to get up/maintain some speed?
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 24-01-08 17:10; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So I stand at the top of an off piste slope, skis facing down the fall line. Then to make a turn I move my knees across the skis to push the snow sideways, even pressure on the skis. When I get going, I extend and retract my legs but don't 'grow' any taller. Skis closer together?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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eng_ch, yes both are pressure but try to think of equalising pressure at all points during the turn through "pushing" at the top and "flopping" at the bottom.
think it through,,, on the first turn what would you do on a soft piste if pointing straight down the hill and are just getting going moving fairly slowly? would you throw in an agressive edge tilt? would you push on one ski real hard or .... as yoda says above rotate (or twist) the lower part of the body using the feet or knees to point where you want to go then add a bit of pressure
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 24-01-08 17:19; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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But that still doesn't shed any light for me on how to initiate the first turn, assuming you start by going straight to get up/maintain some speed?
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Good question. Would it be possible for you, skimottaret, to describe the actions required for one single turn, starting from skiing gently down the fall line, with weight evenly distributed on both skis, and the skis reasonably close together? I think I need to be able to do that before I progress to linked turns!
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Nope, the lightbulb's gone out again. So when you retract at the transition are you "lifting" in order to rotate your feet to change direction? And are you "flopping" at 3-6 o'clock of the turn to create the resistance in the powder to ski against? And if so, aren't you almost too far down already to lift/retract? See, I'm confused again- this is what always happens with it.
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You know it makes sense.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| think it through,,, on the first turn what would you do on a soft piste if pointing straight down the hill and are just getting going moving fairly slowly? would you throw in an agressive edge tilt? would you push on one ski real hard or .... as yoda says above rotate (or twist) the lower part of the body using the feet or knees to point where you want to go then add a bit of pressure |
Any or all of the above depending on gradient, desired speed, width and congestion
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yoda, thanks for that, I'll give it a go.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rotate (or twist) the lower part of the body using the feet or knees to point where you want to go then add a bit of pressure
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When I'm practising this on a soft piste, I can do that. When I do it in powder, nothing seems to happen, I just can't feel any turn. I guess that makes me try to force the issue, which I can see would be fatal.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yoda, thanks, that's very clear and corresponds pretty closely to what is going on in my head, but not my feet!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle, be patient apply rotation/pressure slowly and ensure all your joints are relaxed and flexed.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skimottaret, 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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my two pence worth. The two single things that have helped me are 1. Not looking down at my ski's whilst (Attempting) to ski powder and 2 Keeping the tips level with each other. Appreciate some people here have different issues with skiing powder but these things have helped me. I'm no expert on powder and still stack it in some conditions/pitch's but thats part of the fun.
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Frosty,
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still stack it in some conditions/pitch's but thats part of the fun
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Don't mind falling over, it's the getting up that's a bit of a bummer. Whilst I'm not, ahem, in my first youth, I am pretty flexible and not unfit, but find getting up from a snowhole of my own creation really hard.
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| erica2004 wrote: |
| david@mediacopy, Agreed. But I'm likeeng_ch, - I don't have a problem in chopped up snow conditions or bumps, it's just the soft stuff. I can't seem to get the turns right and I do get conflicting suggestions. How are you actually supposed to turn. I've learnt to carve from the outset, so flattening the skis is alien to me. How am I supposed to turn? |
I tend to try and ski that type of deeper snow by using the shape of the ski to help me, ie by tilting the ski. That allows the ski to start to turn my legs until I decide that the next turn is due, usually quite soon as I'll be skiing in the fall line. My slalom ski's help this as they have an aggressive side cut. I may start with a bit of 'active' leg rotation / pivot to get things going in the first few turns. Good posture will help generally.
In deeper / heavier stuff it's tempting to try and do too much and rush the job (and I'll be be wishing for my twin twips)
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Hurtle, eng_ch, I could suggest heading to Aspen and having a lesson with Weems Westfeld. Weems seems to be very proficient in getting females to ski powder. (I dunno he just IS)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eng_ch,
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FAQ
By "not too steep" I mean where you have no emotional problems with the thought of just going straight down if you felt like it. Set off in a "narrowish" stance - if you learned on carvers you may have a "wide" normal stance but if you ski, say, bumps by turning both feet/legs/skis with strong leg movements do you have a narrower stance then? - and try to keep "forward" in your boots in a nicely flexed stance but without the tips suddenly diving downwards - you may find the stance is the hardest bit to get right 