parlor, A little harsh - are you condoning skiing off piste in all conditions without a guide then, as per Spikyhedgehog's original post?
I hardly condoned off piste skiing in any conditions.
You make it sound like I'm saying that anyone will be fine skiing on a north facing, 38 degree slope that has just had a metre of snowfall the night before. I obvioiusly don't think anyone should be skiing anything like that.
All I'm saying is that powder can be found and enjoyed with minimal risk if you aren't stupid.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
gwaelod,
Bode Swiller, people like me with perhaps only 5 weeks or so off piste certainly need a guide, or a buddy who knows what they are doing, plus lots of training in avalanche awareness, reading terrain etc, with the trannny/shovel/probe being of significiant but lesser importance.
But for many people - like you I guess - who ski more than me and who get to know certain routes very well as well as having better skills, surely the hard-and-fast "always have a guide" rule you seem to suggest is a bit draconian (except on Glaciers)?
After all it is free
After all it is free
lol at this thread - well, the later parts of it anyway!
Here's a bit of Avalanche skiing for you and one very lucky skier.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Guvnor, believe it or not you don't always need a guide to ski off piste.
gwaelod,
Spikyhedgehog, exactly.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Spikyhedgehog, 50metres or 500metres off piste, it is still off piste - what precautions and checks do you perform prior to skiing a pitch? And what safety gear do you take with you? Or do you just assume that as it is within sight of a piste that someone will spot for you and everything will be alright? Do you ever consider why the piste is marked where it is? Do you check the run out for the pitch you are skiing next to the piste? Do you consider others skiing below you on piste? etc etc
Your post was a little vague, hence the questions - I would hate for someone of little experience to take it as read that they can just hop off to the side of a piste to ski powder, without understanding the risks they place themselves, and more importantly others, in. There have been too many incidents just to the fringe of the pisted areas over the years (and probably more so over recent years with the advancement of technology and snowboarding) to take safety for granted.
Blah blah blah.....
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Spikyhedgehog wrote:
That's a little unfair, you have no idea about my skiing ability.
I would've said the 'off piste' I skiied today was very low risk, and I'm sure any guide would agree.
Get a local guide, if you want to have a substantial excursion I'd say.
I can't see how 50 metres off piste on the same slope/conditions/face is high avalanche risk and the piste is low..
No idea how good a skier you are and that is the problem. People seem to think that because they are good skiers they will be immune to the slide when it happens and they are the ones that we end up digging out just feet from the edge of the piste, stiff, blue and very dead.
If you don't understand why it is dangerous then stick to the pretty carving pistes. Or, and I would recommend this, go on an avalanche awareness course, learn a bit about slope aspect, shear points, crystal bonding, tempertaure fluctuation and lee slopes. I had been guiding for 13 years when I was buried in Klosters two years ago, in the Himalayas, Alps, Pyrenees and Scotland, yet that was my third decent avalanche.
Understand the hills, the conditions and the threat because it doesn't give a monkey's toss about whether you can ski or not, only that you are in the wrong place. And by the way, the threat to you is usually above you and the impact of your carelessness threatens those below.
That said, powder skiing is why we ski so get out there and enjoy it - but be safe.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
stoatsbrother, it's important to put it into context... someone came on asking if they should be worried and the advice from one superstar was basically "you'll be OK" based on the fact that he clearly has only a vague idea of what it's all about but has invested in all the gear. The only sane advice to give someone asking advice like that is that they should invest in a guide - learn from a pro and not someone they've never met on a ski forum. I'm not suggesting that it has to be a guide all the time. Let's face it, most people who go off-piste on their own or with mates have a great time and don't get into any bother - statistically it's still rare to die doing this sport. But hey, 4 people dead already this season... how many grieving family members & friends is that? Is it worth messing with? Anyone that's seen an avalanche for real at close quarters knows what I'm saying.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Ah jolly good, some reasoned debate at last
Funnily enough it was in Tignes that I saw some toss pots set off an avalanche about 50 metres from the side of a blue piste. They were lucky to stay above it and those below (us) were safely out of the way by then .......
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
All getting a little BZK, isn't it? Surely that advice should have been that you would be really really unlucky at a resort like Tignes to come to avalanche grief on a piste kept open by the resort no matter what the avalanche risk (though I am intrigued by Yoda's post). Off-piste go with a guide or suitably qualified instructor, unless you have sufficient experience to make a sound judgement yourself - which we can't comment on here.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
In response to the original question "Avalanche Risk - Should I be worried?"...
There can only be one answer... no, don't be "worried"... but do not ski off piste or backcountry either!
Invest in a LOT of training to help you understand the mountain! When you don't need to ask the question, you can make the decision yourself and hopefully it will be the right one.
Anyone that came onto this thread with words along the lines of "you'll be fine" is a total and utter idiot with no understanding of the mountains or people in them, whatsoever.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
achilles wrote:
All getting a little BZK, isn't it? Surely that advice should have been that you would be really really unlucky at a resort like Tignes to come to avalanche grief on a piste kept open by the resort no matter what the avalanche risk (though I am intrigued by Yoda's post).
You would be very unlucky, more chance of being killed on the road up. There was an on-piste death on the 29 January 2006 (Check PisteHors.com if you want the gory details) but that is extremely unusual.
they are automatic translations but with a translation software that is trained for certain terms. I'm currently retraining for this season as they've changed the format so there may be some early season glitches.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Any recommendations for courses or other training opportunities to improve understanding of avalanches and how to avoid them?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
achilles, I said it was 50 m off the side of the piste, not on it - precisely the point which I think was being made by Bode Swiller, Powderhound and others above. Indeed, the guide we were with at the time was of the view that most skiing avalanche deaths occurred within a few hundred metres of pisted runs.
rob@rar, Henry's Avalanche Talk - although I am sure you've already attended, as he runs them locally.....you stay in La Plagne normally, right? I am sure I can hook you up with someone local to there for when you are out if you are interested?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar wrote:
Any recommendations for courses or other training opportunities to improve understanding of avalanches and how to avoid them?
Thanks, that looks just the thing for me. I wonder if we could get Nick to run that course at the EOSB?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
If you think about it the vast majority of avalanche deaths will always occur within a short distance of pisted runs for one very simple reason, people tend to use existing lift mechanisms to as close as possible to the off piste areas, pistes tend to be placed in areas with low risks of avalanches, but just a few meters distance away that risk can increase dramatically due to a tiny change in terrain usually combined with a more dramatic change in terrain higher up. A barely perceptable ridge along the side of a piste may channel any avalanches away from the piste, but if you are on the wrong side of that ridge you may go with the avalanche instead.
There is no substitute for a combination of experience and local knowledge, experience will give you an idea of the likelyhood of an avalanche occuring but local knowledge gives you an insight into the most likely spots that one will happen
After all it is free
After all it is free
Martin Nicholas wrote:
Can anyone point me to a Tarentaise Avalanche bulletin available on line?
The ever wonderful Piste Hors provides links and translations for French bulletins. Now if David could only format a page so that it was very iPhone friendly it would be the perfect mobile resource
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Yoda, ah, fair enough.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
davidof, thanks for those links - very helpful.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rob@rar wrote:
Martin Nicholas wrote:
Can anyone point me to a Tarentaise Avalanche bulletin available on line?
The ever wonderful Piste Hors provides links and translations for French bulletins. Now if David could only format a page so that it was very iPhone friendly it would be the perfect mobile resource
We can work together on that!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
davidof wrote:
We can work together on that!
Be happy to.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Boris wrote:
stanton,
Quote:
Last year,I was saying how it was. No BS.
I'd have to disagree with you though - I was skiing over Christmas and it was fine, plenty of snow
My reports last year were restricted to The Arlberg, Bernese Oberland.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Loatie - in response to your original post - Tignes is high, often sunny, often windy, gets a lot of snow and has some pretty high risk terrain. To put "We don't ski 'off piste' much - basically just to have a play beside the pistes or to maybe cut across from one piste to another." in that context
stanton, not always the impression I got - more that the world was coming to an end
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
To add grist to the mill I wouldn't say always going with a guide is always the best way to learn about avalanche risk & terrain assessment. Many excellent guides do little to articulate the choices they make - perhaps difficult to a non-native English speaker and in any event it is hard to articulate many years of experience in a particular location.
Courses are great as is knowledge you can pick up in controlled environments like a N American resort inbounds. Ask yourself questions like why a particular patrol triggered slide has occurred, note terrain closures after a storm, dig pits and do Reutsch blocks etc..
To the original poster I say if you rely on the advice of a load of folks from tinternet as to whether it is safe to ski off-piste or not, no matter how well-intentioned, you're in trouble.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
To the original poster I say if you rely on the advice of a load of folks from tinternet as to whether it is safe to ski off-piste or not, no matter how well-intentioned, you're in trouble.
Actually, he did receive advice of both sides. It's clear the concensus is "only if you're knowledgable about avalanch risk and choose wisely". He would only be in trouble if he choose to ignore all of those advices.
On the other hand, I do think blanket statement of "never go off-piste" or "you'll be fine" are pretty useless and ought to be ignored.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I hope all those who have posted so eloquently here will allow me a small diversion of this fascinating thread.
Two comments interested me:
1. Pistes are rendered safe from avalanche before they are opened
2. Majority of avalanche deaths occur within a short distance of the piste.
Now, surely not even the world avalanche expert can predict just how far any particular avalanche will travel.
Therefore, presumably, they must take into account this difficulty of accurate prediction, and put in some safety factor before opening a piste.
So, just how far from the piste do the Avalanche Safety Team consider when assessing which potential avalanches need dealing with and which can be left?
Jonpim, mistakes are occasionally made. Wasn't it Val Thorens that the pisteurs brought a big slide down on to one of the lift stations?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Jonpim wrote:
I hope all those who have posted so eloquently here will allow me a small diversion of this fascinating thread.
Two comments interested me:
1. Pistes are rendered safe from avalanche before they are opened
2. Majority of avalanche deaths occur within a short distance of the piste.
Now, surely not even the world avalanche expert can predict just how far any particular avalanche will travel.
Therefore, presumably, they must take into account this difficulty of accurate prediction, and put in some safety factor before opening a piste.
So, just how far from the piste do the Avalanche Safety Team consider when assessing which potential avalanches need dealing with and which can be left?
In France the majority of resorts, certainly those most snowheads would ski in have a document called the PIDA drawn up by the piste security and controlled by the mayor and state prefet. This tries to identify all the avalanche run paths in the ski domain. For given weather conditions (snowfall wind) the piste security will control some or all of these run paths with explosives/gazex etc.
Obviously they will control slopes above pistes and not control slopes below pistes. As a general rule two angles are important, the beta point where the slope drops to 10 degrees and the alpha point, which is defined as an angle from the horizontal from the furthest reach of the deposit to the highest crown point of a potential avalanche. The alpha angle can be calculated from the beta using statistical methods for the mountain range. It is typically 22 degrees for 100 year avalanches. In general planning for things like highways an alpha angle of 25 degrees is used. So the PIDA could specify that all avalanche paths with an alpha of 25 degrees that touch ski runs should be controlled if there is 25cm of new snow or winds from sector X of more than Y km/h for Z duration.
Jonpim, it is fair to say that pistes are rendered safe prior to opening but this does not mean that there is absolutely no risk, only a reduced risk, particularly if the conditions are posted as 4 or 5, due to others skiing in areas above or alongside the same pistes.
Avalanche prediction is an inexact science and despite all the research and analysis in the world it is still not possible to do anything other than forecast - as opposed to accurately predict - where, when and why an avalanche will occur. The safety margin is a matter of history and experience. If you look at some of the youtube clips there are some slides that demonstrate the inherently unstable nature of a snow slope and this means that the safety factor has to be pretty large. The majority of deaths do not occur near the pistes, they occur in the areas easily accessed from the lifts, which is slightly different. Areas between pistes must be deemed more dangerous otherwise they would have been considered as suitable for putting within the piste boundary - except in Scotland where they seem to be arbitrary...!
The distance that an avalanche will travel is extremely hard to predict and I don't know any accurate method of so doing. 5 people were killed a couple of years ago standing on a 'safe' slope when an avalanche triggered in a neighbouring valley came over the ridge and wiped them out. Very unlucky indeed but that's the hills for you I guess.
Common sense should always prevail and although I know apply a very cautious approach it is possible to be too cautious and never go out - how to strike the balance? Well, do some training and be careful... A good decision will be based on experience and there is only one way to get experience...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Hey guys I thought this was for talking about the risk of off piste skiing not having a go at eachother. Let's stay on track.
I have just been out and the powder is good but quite heavy (wet the lower you go) so anyone thinking of going even a little off piste should take great care and if you are not sure, please do go with someone that knows what they are doing.
Better to miss one day and be able to come back another in good weather than take to big a risk, and anyone that know me knows I love the powder, but it is dangerous out there right now!! And always take the right gear with you and know how to use it. Good powder hunting.
After all it is free
After all it is free
snowcrazy, where did you ski today? Did you manage anything in Les Arcs?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I was in St Anton last week and the 'piste' varied in width from day to day, what was probably 30 meters off piste one day was, the next day, a pisted run. I think making sweeping statements that off the side of a piste is nevertheless 'off piste' and therefore not recommended (unless with a guide) is wrong. Anyone going off the side of piste should simply make due consideration of the topography, snow, conditions etc. and make a valued judgement. Two blue pistes adjoined by a strip of 'off piste' in between of a similar degree of pitch is likley to be excluded from the piste because of rocks maybe rather than avalanche risk. Of course there are also insurance issues........
also, for the prosecution, the ground at St Anton I was told was not that cold/frozen before the snow hit, and right at the edge of the pistes at resort level the snow on the steeper bits of the mountain adjoining the pistes was just slabbing and sagging, the next day i saw a skiers track that looked life a knife through butter that had severed maybe a chunk of snow 15 meters wide by maybe 5 meters (about half a meter deep) that just slid down the edge of the piste like a blanket. So make valued judgements at all times.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 11-12-07 18:30; edited 1 time in total
I went on this avalanche awareness course last year. It was very good and is run by an excellent Mountain Guide, Bill O'Conner who wrote the two volume guide book "Ski Mountaineering in the Alps".(Cicerone Press) I would recommend anyone to go on such a course.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
